The Peralta Stones

[Twisted Fork]

Well, I think we brought up the topic of the Jesuits some where along the line and every bit of this ever widening thread is right in line with how they the monks thought about the world, the other men and their tablets. Like I said, salvation is a spiritual experience and the very reason God titled those Folks his chosen people (who just happen to be White) is because there are more lovers in Christ and they cannot do otherwise; it is inherent, it is written and they are set apart; get over it. The entire reason why these treasures are set aside for them is because all of the gold is God's. If someone else gets there hands near it, they just might be asking for it. I would again like to thank the Peraltas for all of their hard work in Jesus, you hope.

 

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[cactusjumper]

TW,

The problem with trying to get a conversation going on the Stone Maps, is that those who have actually researched the subject......over many years, have discussed it to death. Personally, I have disclosed everything I have discovered over the last forty years, or so.

In those discussions, we have had to contend with every twisted blind fork that cames along. It's like the game....Wack-A-Mole. Every time you put the mole back in his hole, another pops right up.

Here is the Stone Map Trail, laid out on a topographic map. I have posted it a number of times.....in a number of places, and no one can find a single (reasonable) fault with it. The Stone Maps are, amazingly, to scale. No need to decipher it, just need to be able to read a map. The maps show specific locations (old mines) and landmarks. Almost every LDM story is woven into those maps.

The best way to get the conversation going, is to ask a specific question or make a statement of what you believe to be "fact". Perhaps a good conversation could be started by discussing why my map is wrong. With so many people claiming to have figured out the maps, I expect the error of my ways being pointed out, will come fast and furious.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Twisted Fork]

Folks are quite free to share anything and everything they can find in relation to these often questioned works of art. The more we can dredge up the better it gets. It doesn't hurt to know all you can about the characters and their motives behind the use and need of producing these works in the first place. Knowing how they thought, how they lived, the characters of all of their enemies whoever they are and their perception of their God, all contributes to us the hunters in figuring out the strategies of covering their tracks, which is your first real stumbling block. There is an easy way to go about this and then there is blunder of which they counted on seeing in you as part of that strategy. Where you track and search instinctively through first impression is there greatest strength and the best of their allies. Call it a carrot, a bread trail, the distraction of decoys or the path of least resistance of which the combined effort would most likely lead you into the hands of the Apache if not abandoned starvation itself. This system was and still is vividly a well laid military operation. The tablets are in a code within a code within a code, according to the code these Monks learned and lived back in their homeland Spain. The constant threat of French occupation created institution, carefully devised and carried out in fine detail these plans were an act of self survival and defense against all comers. He who has the Gold rules. They were so good at it, that not even the King's new Zionist party the Franciscans, were ever able to crack it.

 

[ghostdog]

Hello Mr. Fork, I still have a intense interest in the Supers,Peraltas and Aztec trails.The map you posted in Blue I have seen before but can't recall where. In the book Thunder God"s Gold,by Barry Storm, states the Dutchman,Waltz said you could see the "military trail" from the gold cave,but could not spot it from the military trail.In another chapter he writes about another prospecter in the late 1920's who found a bell shaped opening that went 13 rope latters down,and writes again about a" hidden valley",with German old style dynamite fuse"s and Spanish muskets laying around.He also says the Indians covered up most of the lower elevation mines,but left the higher ones open.The Peraltas put axe head type stones high up in the Sagoro"s as trail markers and used this like a modern day highway. Its my opinon the "stone tablets"are trail markers ,but not to treasure, {unless they were in Gold or silver}.

 

[Twisted Fork]

The blue map is named "Chad's Map" Much of what you have mentioned sounds correct in my memory. These were the first books and legends I remember reading long ago as well. I remember somewhere it was said quoting Waltz, that the December sunset would shine into the mouth of his mine. This caused me to wonder whether if he was speaking about a pit mine with portal below, or a mine site or vein with more than one entrance as this was a common method used by Spanish miners I have come to realize here in Utah. The term mine used to apply to a mountain that may have had several different and separate tunnels, and still retain the title of being a mine; like a river with different pockets far apart from each other. Waltz was of course German and leaned towards the remains of the old world in translations. The site I have been referring to in the "played as fools thread," has a concealed tunnel in one canyon, and a funnel with an entrance entering from the side, lower down on the slope; all concealed at this time. I have learned that the tablets were a landmark yes and were never intended to be removed from their location. They were positioned where they were so as to mark off one's first step in triangulation leading North up onto the Salt. One would lay the tablets on the ground and stretch out thin paper over them and then charcoal trace out the reliefs, These sheets could then be used as overlays and folds similar to old Mason Pirate Maps. From what I gather, the "Old Spanish Military trail" ran over to the giant "S" turn in the Salt River next to Black Mountain, and then up river. This " S " can be found in the back bottom edge of the swirl of the skirt, on the "Witch Priest" who is holding a divine cross in his hands on the tablets.

There is a very famous wall painting from way back, of a group of Spanish Dons and such on horse back. The horses have rings for hooves and a white priest is painted as thought he is standing on the hill above them with a staff. I believe this party is passing South by the witch hat shaped peak "Black Mountain" and the view is of the west slope looking East. The peak is just South of the Giant " S " in the Salt River.

I have also come to realize that each Don made his own maps based on the graphics he copied from a hand picked palm sized stone, as viewed through his miner's glass. Each mountain has such a record storage from every Don that took possession of it over hundreds of years. It can be found on the surface over the heart section of the rich contact of the lode below ground. The section is first cleared and manicured of most fragments. It will stand out because you will notice individual stones sitting here and there on little shelfs; stones that are not native to the slope and surroundings or they may be worn differently as though they came from the stream below. These are natural scaled down models of the mountain and amazingly enough, one with an eye glass will see the same graphics on these stones as are used on the paper maps. They can even show you naturally where the gold outcrop was before the tunnel was started. How's that for prospecting? Nature repeats itself on many scales. Every mine has such a map deposit and every mountainous mineral zone has a cornerstone position for it's records like the legend box on a road map. Thus the tablets: "Study the Map" "Study the Heart"

 

[Oroblanco]

Twisted Fork wrote

Like I said, salvation is a spiritual experience and the very reason God titled those Folks his chosen people (who just happen to be White)

I respectfully disagree on this (among other things) and suggest we keep our discussion to the subject at hand? I am sure there are religious and or political forums where that kind of talk is most welcome but we have very much bent the rules here.

Cactusjumper wrote

Perhaps a good conversation could be started by discussing why my map is wrong. With so many people claiming to have figured out the maps, I expect the error of my ways being pointed out, will come fast and furious.

Well I took the bait and studied your map theory over an hour with a magnifying glass, and could not spot any glaring problems. What I didn't think of is that it is TOO perfect a fit. Map makers of the 1800's were not that good, especially in scales and distances. So okay, if it is made in the 1930's-40's then the art of cartography is markedly better, but is it logical to expect that a person making the maps would get it that correct? Doesn't that fact <too much accuracy> strike you as peculiar? Thank you in advance,

Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear OroBlanco;
At least our esteemed associate, Twisted Fork, is giving the Jesuits a well-deserved break:
They were so good at it, that not even the King's new Zionist party the Franciscans, were ever able to crack it.

Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Welcome back my Esteemed friend Lamar. Just remember, there were two separate groups. the ones that did very excellent work and actually helped the Indians, were not the mining group. In fact didn't even know of them.

I still think that the stones were created to further the gigantic land grab by supposedly establishing a prior claim. Unfortunately, the actual location where they were to be accidentally found, was lost / incorrect, so they were not recoverd in time to be of any use in the court claim, so they were abandoned and their existance was simply forgotten. They lay there until our modern gentleman accidentally found them.

The ability and topigrafical knowledge did not exist among even the titled personel in the days of the supposed early mining, especially the early Spanish miners, unless they were Jesut. To have brought in a profesional would have meant another would be privy to the locations, one that could effectively pinpoint it later for personal purposes or for another.

Twisted Fork, most early Spanish mining utilized fire to help ventilate the actual workings. So they built shafts for the rising heat to escape thus drawing in enough fresh air to allow the miners to work. For this reason, you almost always will find a separate shaft in old Spamish mines of any depth.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[ghostdog]

Mr.R.D.T., Are you saying in effect the stone tablets were used as a sort of boundry markers to show land grabs. Why would they do that when they could make maps and legal documents to show the same. This is not a attack on your interesting theory. I realize it is not easy being the King of Tayopa.

Mr.Fork thanks for your long response it was very good imformation.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I originally placed the Stone Maps on a Topo' around 40+ years ago. I was a pretty excited lad, and completely convinced I had discovered the path to Jesuit treasure. My eyes were full of dollar signs, and my thought process did not really extend into the mechanics of creating such a map. At the time, the perfection seemed a solid verification of my conclusions. In fact, I traced the trail (from a picture of the Stone Maps) off of the ridge and laid it on a Topo'.........it fit perfectly, including each and every turn all the way into West Boulder.

That being said, anyone who has spent years in those mountains could easily hand draw a very accurate map. I did it a number of times as a callow youth. I believe that Tom Kollenborn, Ron Feldman, Clay Worth, Bob Corbin, Dave Leach and any number of old time Dutch Hunters could hand draw a very detailed map. My guess is that a number of the younger pups could do it as well.

Should you come to the Rendezvous, you will meet many of those old timers and youngsters. If you have ever wondered about a certain place in the Superstitions, had a question about some part of the legends or history, there will be one or more people there who can give you a qualified answer.

It was a long time dream of mine to create such an event. Others have taken that dream and made it into a reality. My sharp and caustic manner would never have allowed the Rendezvous to grow into the place to be. I am more than good with that.

None of us are growing any younger, so our chances to meet.....face to face, with the friends we have made on the Internet are growing scarcer with each passing year. Some, like Cubfan (Paul) realized that and bit the bullet. This will be his third year at the event. This will be Gossamer's second year.

I can't name all of the old timers who will be at this years event, without their permission, but I am fairly certain that no one will be disappointed. I know I won't.

Not to denigrate my friends who have come to another conclusion, some with good cause, but my own research into Jesuit history has convinced me that Jesuit treasure is in the same category as the Seven Cities of Gold........A dream that just won't go away.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

hi Cactus my buddy: you posted -->

my own research into Jesuit history has convinced me that Jesuit treasure is in the same category as the Seven Cities of Cobola.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HMM, how do you explain Tayopa, among others? And Yes, the 7 ciudades de Cibola do exist. They are in the Valle de Conajaqui in Sinaloa next to the Durango border. It is Mexican national treasure site now, and the UN has it in it's sights.

Incidentally can you explain why the resident Jesuit at Yecora was so excited when he saw my logo about Tayopa? When I said "yes. I have it" , he practically gave me an 'order', that the next time that I passed through Yecora, that I was to stop at his home and talk about Tayopa all night. He said that he had a huge pot of the best coffee in Mexico.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good morning Ghost Dog: Hmm did you know that I once saw one? He was huge, about 90+# and black. He appeared on top of a vertical cliff to my left, then ran across the small mesa to the right to above another vertical cliff, where he simple disappeared. The Local Indians told me that he was a ghost dog, they are always huge and black. They show you where there a treasure or a vein. Actually he did run over the junction of the rich AU vein for the Bonanza and the San Francisco claims??

Are you one?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You posted -->

Why would they do that when they could make maps and legal documents to show the same
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Simply because they would be using an old law to bolster the claim, since they couldn't produce a valid series of documents from many different departments - The Mexicans inherited a fetish from Spain, copies, copies, copies, and more copies - It would have been almost impossible to falsify the necessary documents.

The custom and effective law they were trying to take advantage of, was the old law of continuous occupancy, whether legally there or not. If one stayed continuously on a parcel of land for 10 years without being served a legal order of eviction, the land was theirs for claiming.

So if they could show a nebulous claim by way of the Stones, they had a chance of winning.

I can only assume that they had the stones made, then commissioned an employee to take them out to the superstitions, bury them at a predetermined spot, to be later, casually found by a Paid, independent person, to be produced in court as evidence of prior residency /ownership. due to the 10 year law.

Unfortunately the one that did the burying wasn't to sharp and buried them where there was no specific land mark nearby, so they were never found in time for the trial. Afterwards they would have been simply another Albatross, with possibly other legal complications.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
.
You also posted -->

I realize it is not easy being the King of Tayopa
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sigh, you are sooo right hehhehehe Heavy hangs the head with a crown. but when did I earn that title? I still haven't produced physical proof in here yet??
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Until I saw the Dutchman in here, my only contact with the Superstitions was July 56, when I was returning in a Stearman from the Spruce Budworm project in Canada, I decided to fly down Roosevelt Lake to sight see. I entered the north end in beautifully clear weather, but inside of a few minutes a huge cumulus formed, dropped down to cover the mountains of the surrounding Superstitions, then commenced to rain like h---. I couldn't climb up to get clear, so was committed to fly about 20 ft above the winding east road following it out .

By the time that I managed to exit the southern entry of the Lake, into the clear weather again, I had about 2 ft of water sloshing around inside of the cockpit. Despite two slow barrel rolls, it was still draining when I finally landed at Phoenix and taxied to the Marsh Aviation hanger.

Soo yes, the Superstitions themselves mean a lot to me, I almost became one of the lost ones. I am sure that if I hadn't survived, that some how I would have been entered into the story as another victim of the Dutchman legend. hehehe.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose, my friend,

You have misquoted me. I wrote "The Seven Cities of Gold". That was a myth long before the Spanish arrived in the New World, or before Coronado gazed "across the sandy bed of the river", three miles from the Zuni pueblos.

I am unable to explain Tayopa nor the "Sinaloa" Seven Cities. I know a bit about Tayopa, but nothing about the latest claims for the Seven Cities of Gold.

It's more than possible that you have attached more importance to your encounter with the Jesuit, than it deserves. An intelligent man, knowing the stories of Jesuit treasure and Tayopa, would have a keen interest in someone who states he has found......either. If that man happened to be a Jesuit, the interest might be expected to be intense. That does not verify the claims of such a mine or any treasure.

Considering the things that have been attributed to the Jesuits of that era, it seems inconceivable that the order would have "lost" this mine in the first place. They were inveterate and detailed record keepers.......somewhere.

Since the priest "had the best coffee in Mexico", can you tell us how the conversation went when you surely visited him to sip a few cups?

Thanks Don Jose,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
Strictly as an aside, the fables of Sinoloa, Cibola and the Seven Cities have been floating around Spain for at least three centuries before Columbus first set sail and claimed the New World. This should tell you exactly how *factual* or *real* this particular fable is, my friend.

It seems that the story of a city of gold did not exist until the Conquistadores brought it with them from Spain. Nowhere in pre-Columbian history can one find a single reputable reference of any such city or area in the New World and it was not until that Conquistadores started grilling the natives about the Seven Cities that they sort of concocted a story to fuel the imaginations of the Conquistadores.

It's all pretty funny in retrospect. The Consquistadores would come upon a native settlement, then enquire through intrepretors, in which direction did the fabulous city or cities, lay. As one chronicler happened to note, it seemed that the natives were leading the Spaniards in one huge, roughly circular shaped pattern. In other words, the natives couldn't tell the Spaniards where the city was, because it only existed in the minds of the Conquistadores.

It must have been a great source of humor for the nativies, because they managed to rid themselves of the foreign invaders without having to resort to war, although it was only a temporary reprieve, as things turned out. The American Indians were doomed to have their societies irrevocuably altered with the arrival of the European colonists and as time past, virtually every inch of the vastnes of the New World was explored, and much like Atlantis, over time the fable of Sinaloa, Cibola and the Seven Lost Cities of Gold slowly faded away to become Spanish bedtime stories.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

That is exactly the history of the Seven Cities of Gold, as I have read and understand it. Believe we have gone over that a few times here, so I didn't get too detailed in my post. On the other hand, you have recounted that history, in a short post, better than I could.

Your friend,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good afternoon gentlemen: I had a long post to answer both of you, but I was called away before I posted it, when I came back it was gone - while I was away, Norton came on, scanned , and restarted my computer - something about a porno thingie from Lamar? Hehhe sorry my friend, couldn't resist, but it did disappear.

About the seven cities of Gold/Cibola, which are the same, identical thing, yes, you are 100% correct. However, it was utilized by the King to stimulate exploration in the new lands without the Royal treasury financing the expenses. The ones that did explore, paid their own expenses in return for a charter or concession from the king regarding anything of value that they might find and lands.

By a curious coincidence Estaban, in the final stages of his remarkable journey, did pass by The 7 ciudades of Cibola, and only seeing it from a distance, glowing golden in the sunlight, used it as a base for his claim to fame.

SO, YES, the 7 ciudades de Cibola in question in Mexico do exist and are known today. I agree that they are not the original ones, but they WERE what most of the early explorers were after. "Estaban's Cities".

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Twisted Fork]

The scale of the title "city" in the mind of a Native may simply be a larger than usual village, or the location of the main chief or the most powerful and well know shaman of each tribe. Of course with the previous posts being the more than likely scenario about Cibola, It is quite possible that the legend refers to 7 villages or encampments below 7 rich mines of pure gold. In the old West, the Utes were ruled by 12 brothers; the most powerful and warlike was Wakara. (1800's) A Shaman of the 16th century was remembered even in Wakara's day. The gold of 7 mines exists in the Ute legends to this day. These mines belonged to the ancestors (Aztecs), for the Utes had no use of the gold other than as as a spiritual icon. This famous Shaman encountered the first Spaniards in a village at the South end of Utah lake in the year 1562. They were two scouts sent ahead of their party from the now Colorado river. As one of these two scouts roamed around the Native encampment, he noticed a young brave emptying out his medicine bag on a fur that laid in front of him. From the bag rolled out a large pure gold nugget amongst other objects. Immediately the scout approached the Chief and Shaman about the nugget. The Shaman took the stage making a big and negative scene making it quite clear to the two Spaniards that the gold was taboo and belonged to God. The Spaniards fired their weapons in an effort to frighten the already confused tribe who thought they may be looking at two angels riding heavenly beasts. Still the Shaman refused until one of the scouts killed a brave with his thunder stick. The Shaman then bowed and agreed to go to the mine of the Ancestors where they believed that God dwelt at the time of the creation; he would return with a basket of gold, if the two beings would wait behind. Upon his return the next day, he set a basket of the shiny metal at their feet and motioned for them to leave in peace. Of course the two Spanish scouts had other plans and immediately mounted their horses and headed off in the direction of the Shaman's fresh tracks. They as well returned the next day with both horses packed up with more gold and at the sight of this the Natives went wild. The two pointed their thunder sticks at the Utes, but upon the effort nothing happened as their powder was wet from an early morning rain on the trail back. At this the tribe pulled them from their horses and unloaded the packs of gold. The two were then allowed to leave empty handed and turned away back to their party. The Shaman spent three days returning the gold to the mine on his back before sealing the entrance once again. No Ute dared speak of the locations of the mines least the Chief may have had them put to death and only these 12 brothers centuries later retained the knowledge of their locations. It is Ute legend that the old Shaman was entombed in the mine of the ancestors. Of course we all know what happened next due to two frantic Spanish scouts.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

My buddy Jose the Cactus jumper, you posted -->

An intelligent man, knowing the stories of Jesuit treasure and Tayopa, would have a keen interest in someone who states he has found......either. If that man happened to be a Jesuit, the interest might be expected to be intense. That does not verify the claims of such a mine or any treasure.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\

Agreed Joe, but if it happens to be a Jesuit, in the actual area of Tayopa, who 'KNOWS ' that they never mined or accumulated any values, . it would be most unusual wouldn't you think?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You also posted --> Considering the things that have been attributed to the Jesuits of that era, it seems inconceivable that the order would have "lost" this mine in the first place. They were inveterate and detailed record keepers.......somewhere.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I agree 100%, there undoubtedly 'are' records somewhere, but where ? I believe that 99% of the present Jesuit hierarchy are not privy to them, most honestly do not know that they were involved in mining. Those that do know, do not talk of them, Why? Is it perhaps that some day they intend to recover them themselves?

One can only speculate, but I suggest that you attempt to get a copy of the records of the Society's attempt to take North America away from Spain with the help of the Dutch. This was the real reason for their expulsion and disfavor with the King. This may be a bit difficult.

However I have now traced most of the route by which they shipped precious metal from the Tayopa zone North / East to one of the bays below Matamorros for trans shipment to Rome.

My assoc. had an audience with the then no 2 of the Society, who when asked about this, laughingly admitted it, and said "Yes we did, but we don't do that sort of thing anymore".

My assoc. was an un ordained Jesuit, he found that he liked females more than the vows, which is one of the reasons that he wrangled the Audience. The schooling, not the females., sheesh.

You should have been privy to some of the data Father Charles Polzer and I exchanged before he unfortunately left us. He finally said, "ok when you open Tayopa I will dance the first dance"in celebration..

Regarding the Jesuits they were infamous for having very deep pockets for court intrigue, where did they get this money,

What was the Jesuit priest doing climbing around on Tayopa where he fell to his death in the later 1800's.? This is when there was only one Indian family within 20 miles. This spot is now known as the Cerro de la Cura.


As to the meeting with my friend in Yecora, that must remain in confidence, but yes, Mexican hill coffee is excellent, especially when sitting around an wood stove burning aromatic pitch pine..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[lamar]

Dear Twisted Fork;
Here is the historical timeline pretaining to the tale of Cibola, my friend:
Quivera and Cibola were two of the seven fabulous cities of gold that first originated when the Moors conquered Merida, Spain in 1150 AD. Columbus discovered America is 1492 AD, which means the fable of Quivera and Cibola predates the discovery of America by 342 years, therefore nobody could have possibly known of the existence of Cibola, Quivera or the other golden cities in the New World because no one had discovered the New World yet.

There is also a very good reason why the story tellers chose the westerly direction in their tale of the Seven Bishops of Merida. It's simply beacuse the other three cardinal points, that being North South and East, had already been thoroughly explored and mapped, which left only the westerly direction as the only remaining unexplored direction. During the time when the story first began making it's rounds, pretty much everyone felt that the world was relatively flat and if one were set off in a westerly direction then they'd fall off of the edge of world.

Now, if one were to do a bit of research, one would quickly discover that Merida, Spain was naught but a sleepy country hamlet without a single Bishop in the region, much less being the home of seven Bishops. As a point of fact, there has never been a cathedral or basilica in Merida, which is necessary if one wishes for the community to be the seat of a Roman Catholic Bishop.

There were never any riches housed in Merida, church owned or otherwise. It's simply a fable, dreamt up by medieval bards and recited as poems in front of crowds of noblemen, purely as a form of entertainment, in much the same way as they would sing praises of the mighty knight Roland, Arthur, or other chivalric knights of old.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos and I also Welcome back our friend Lamar.

This reply is another long-winded one, so I beg your indulgence.

Lamar wrote

At least our esteemed associate, Twisted Fork, is giving the Jesuits a well-deserved break:

With one of his Spirit Guides being what he described as a dead Jesuit Priest, it is understandable!

Cactusjumper wrote

Should you come to the Rendezvous, you will meet many of those old timers and youngsters. If you have ever wondered about a certain place in the Superstitions, had a question about some part of the legends or history, there will be one or more people there who can give you a qualified answer.

I do wonder about Circlestone, and may one day hike in to take a peek at it - with many questions about it such as who or whom built it, what was the purpose, when was it constructed and when was it abandoned etc. No "treasure" connection of course but still an interesting bona fide Superstition mountains mystery. We are trying to work it out so we can attend, but I detest to make promises I can't keep so can't say anything definite - yet.

Real de Tayopa wrote

And Yes, the 7 ciudades de Cibola do exist. They are in the Valle de Conajaqui in Sinaloa next to the Durango border. It is Mexican national treasure site now, and the UN has it in it's sights.

I would like to you explain why this site is identified with Cibola, if you have time? There is a site in AZ right on the border with NM which "fits" the descriptions given by Coronado perfectly, though they are in ruins/abandoned today, and the site you are proposing seems to be very much too far south to fit with Coronado's timeline of his march north. Thank you in advance.

Real de Tayopa also wrote

You posted -->

Why would they do that when they could make maps and legal documents to show the same
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Simply because they would be using an old law to bolster the claim, since they couldn't produce a valid series of documents from many different departments - The Mexicans inherited a fetish from Spain, copies, copies, copies, and more copies - It would have been almost impossible to falsify the necessary documents.

The custom and effective law they were trying to take advantage of, was the old law of continuous occupancy, whether legally there or not. If one stayed continuously on a parcel of land for 10 years without being served a legal order of eviction, the land was theirs for claiming.

Under this Pre-emption law, I believe there was also a requirement for the claimant to have made certain improvements upon the land so claimed, including but not limited to a water source (as in an improved spring or dug well) corner monuments of stone or wood, a habitation which has been continuously occupied for some period of time, clearing of some area of land, etc. On these grounds Reavis was not well supplied with evidence, but his concentration of false documents served him well enough, or well enough up to a point. A claimant could always say that their improvements had been destroyed by hostile Indians etc.

Real de Tayopa also wrote

Good afternoon gentlemen: I had a long post to answer both of you, but I was called away before I posted it, when I came back it was gone - while I was away, Norton came on, scanned , and restarted my computer - something about a porno thingie from Lamar? Hehhe sorry my friend, couldn't resist, but it did disappear.

Hey everyone reading our discussion - keep an eye out for this kind of crap, and it often comes with an email address from someone you know so you THINK it is legit when in reality it is spam of the worst kind. The folks doing this know how to use a fake return email address (using someone from your own list) and load your computer with crap, maybe even illegal kiddie-porn etc. Just a reminder to our readers to keep on the lookout.

Lamar wrote

Now, if one were to do a bit of research, one would quickly discover that Merida, Spain was naught but a sleepy country hamlet without a single Bishop in the region, much less being the home of seven Bishops. As a point of fact, there has never been a cathedral or basilica in Merida, which is necessary if one wishes for the community to be the seat of a Roman Catholic Bishop.

Not trying to "correct" you here amigo as you do have it correct, just wanted to add that some have proposed there were originally seven priests, not bishops, and the exodus to escape the invading Moors did take place (sailing west) - after which the arriving Moors, finding no treasures then assumed that vast quantities had been removed with the fleeing priests and Christians. Just a possible origin for a very old legend, in which a somewhat mundane (but still must have been a terrible event to live through) flight of Merida and nearby villagers from hostile Muslims grew into a treasure tale that eventually led to much greater adventures as well as greater tragedies.

Lamar I have a totally off-topic question to ask you here too, and you probably know the answer - do you remember the name of the person assigned to be Bishop of Vinland? No connection to our discussion here, just have been trying to find it and without the name of the bishop it is tough. Thank you in advance.

Please do continue gentlemen, this has gotten interesting!
Oroblanco