Blindbowman
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The Peralta Stones
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somehiker
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Hi Mike:
It can be frustrating at times,and every point that you make is valid.All that we have to work with though,is what we can find while we are looking for whatever evidence that may remain from the decades or centuries prior to the era of the LDM searchers.When we do come across something that may apply to that which we are trying to locate,we have to make a judgment call as to the implications of our discovery.
I have given my reasons previously,as to why I have little faith in the many stories of "monumented trails" that lead to rich mines,concealed with much labour by any group who then neglected to remove the "monuments" that would lead right back to the mine.Same goes for any of the markers supposedly utilized by adherents of the "King's Code" or other similar conventions.Not only do we have to decide if our find is possibly one such marker,be it a pile of rocks that looks like a bird or a simple starburst,we also have to consider that it may be a creation of someone with the requisite knowledge seeking to bolster their own solution to the mystery.Or with perhaps a simple prank in mind.These are some of the reasons why I have not spent much time researching the topic,or get all that excited about most of the rock animals,scratched names and dates,etc,that I find out there.I may take and share photos of these things,but I seldom consider them hard evidence.Complementary maybe.
This photo,a self portrait,was taken in the sort of country that I spend much of my time in.No roads,no easily recognized trails,no hikers,no hunters and no published stories to follow.
More later....Regards:SH.
It can be frustrating at times,and every point that you make is valid.All that we have to work with though,is what we can find while we are looking for whatever evidence that may remain from the decades or centuries prior to the era of the LDM searchers.When we do come across something that may apply to that which we are trying to locate,we have to make a judgment call as to the implications of our discovery.
I have given my reasons previously,as to why I have little faith in the many stories of "monumented trails" that lead to rich mines,concealed with much labour by any group who then neglected to remove the "monuments" that would lead right back to the mine.Same goes for any of the markers supposedly utilized by adherents of the "King's Code" or other similar conventions.Not only do we have to decide if our find is possibly one such marker,be it a pile of rocks that looks like a bird or a simple starburst,we also have to consider that it may be a creation of someone with the requisite knowledge seeking to bolster their own solution to the mystery.Or with perhaps a simple prank in mind.These are some of the reasons why I have not spent much time researching the topic,or get all that excited about most of the rock animals,scratched names and dates,etc,that I find out there.I may take and share photos of these things,but I seldom consider them hard evidence.Complementary maybe.
This photo,a self portrait,was taken in the sort of country that I spend much of my time in.No roads,no easily recognized trails,no hikers,no hunters and no published stories to follow.
More later....Regards:SH.
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Javaone
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SH,
YOUR posts have always been very interesting. You are honest with your adventures and very active in your search… I am sure many others feel the same way.
You wrote “I have given my reasons previously,as to why I have little faith in the many stories of "monumented trails" that lead to rich mines,concealed with much labour by any group who then neglected to remove the "monuments" that would lead right back to the mine.Same goes for any of the markers supposedly utilized by adherents of the "King's Code" or other similar conventions.” – There is the theory brought up by others that the Peralta Stones and the LDM are separate. If the adherents never made it back then there is that slight possibility of something being at the end of the rainbow.
It is evident that although thousands have been crawling all over the Supes for many years, there still have been interesting things discovered there – which lends to the possibility that something has been missed.
A question of mine would be; what has influenced this path you are on? Is it by your own accord, or a path searched by others that either you are documenting or retracing to find what may have been missed? If it is by your own accord, is there some reasoning you can give as to why you have chosen this course?
Jerry
YOUR posts have always been very interesting. You are honest with your adventures and very active in your search… I am sure many others feel the same way.
You wrote “I have given my reasons previously,as to why I have little faith in the many stories of "monumented trails" that lead to rich mines,concealed with much labour by any group who then neglected to remove the "monuments" that would lead right back to the mine.Same goes for any of the markers supposedly utilized by adherents of the "King's Code" or other similar conventions.” – There is the theory brought up by others that the Peralta Stones and the LDM are separate. If the adherents never made it back then there is that slight possibility of something being at the end of the rainbow.
It is evident that although thousands have been crawling all over the Supes for many years, there still have been interesting things discovered there – which lends to the possibility that something has been missed.
A question of mine would be; what has influenced this path you are on? Is it by your own accord, or a path searched by others that either you are documenting or retracing to find what may have been missed? If it is by your own accord, is there some reasoning you can give as to why you have chosen this course?
Jerry
Blindbowman
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self evident....!
Cubfan64
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Jerry, you said this...
You've stated in one sentence my entire infatuation with the Superstitions - thank you
. Whether it be precious metals, native american signs, early historical military evidence, or something entirely different - the idea that "over the next rise" something unique and unseen for many years may lie waiting for discovery is what fills my imagination every day.
You've stated in one sentence my entire infatuation with the Superstitions - thank you
. Whether it be precious metals, native american signs, early historical military evidence, or something entirely different - the idea that "over the next rise" something unique and unseen for many years may lie waiting for discovery is what fills my imagination every day.
Blindbowman
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Cubfan64 said:Jerry, you said this...
You've stated in one sentence my entire infatuation with the Superstitions - thank you
and that my friend is why i sent you to the top of the mt ..
CUP .....
when we fail to feel that search within us we lose the will to seek .. ...someone has forgot to tell us we are already dead at that point ...
Javaone
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Thanks Cub,Cubfan64 said:Jerry, you said this...
You've stated in one sentence my entire infatuation with the Superstitions - thank you
That's what keeps me coming back.
JJ
somehiker
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Javaone said:SH,
YOUR posts have always been very interesting. You are honest with your adventures and very active in your search… I am sure many others feel the same way.
You wrote “I have given my reasons previously,as to why I have little faith in the many stories of "monumented trails" that lead to rich mines,concealed with much labour by any group who then neglected to remove the "monuments" that would lead right back to the mine.Same goes for any of the markers supposedly utilized by adherents of the "King's Code" or other similar conventions.” – There is the theory brought up by others that the Peralta Stones and the LDM are separate. If the adherents never made it back then there is that slight possibility of something being at the end of the rainbow.
It is evident that although thousands have been crawling all over the Supes for many years, there still have been interesting things discovered there – which lends to the possibility that something has been missed.
A question of mine would be; what has influenced this path you are on? Is it by your own accord, or a path searched by others that either you are documenting or retracing to find what may have been missed? If it is by your own accord, is there some reasoning you can give as to why you have chosen this course?
Jerry
I guess that I would be one to include myself amongst those that have the opinion that the Stone Maps were created to facilitate the recovery,not of mines,but of a large hidden cache, probably multiple caches,concealed within the area to which they apply.
I think that the mines,including the LDM,were likely scattered throughout the range and the refined products of those mines would account for some of what was cached.Several of these mines are what we know as the "Peralta" mines and there are a number of other stone and non-stone maps that likely apply to their location.While it is also possible that as many as three mines,or groupings of mines,may lie within a short distance of the caches,I do not believe that they are shown anywhere on the original four stones found by Tumlinson.They are,I believe,shown on the Latin Heart,one Stone Cross and the Perficio Cursum rock inscription.The caches themselves may also contain additional stone maps IMO.
While it is true that thousands have entered the mountains in search of these things,the vast majority have followed the same leads and trails,with similar results.Most were looking for existing mines,apparent or hidden,while a few were in search of caches of ore or gold bars stacked in open caves as detailed in various accounts and legends.A very few may have had some success,but also may have missed a thing or two.
I can't say that where I go,or what I look for,is entirely of my own accord.The human and geological history of certain areas does tend to influence my choice of routes and destinations out there.Hohokam and Salado ruins,Apache campsites,mining and cattle roundup campsites are all interesting points of interest that can lead to even more intriguing discoveries.
Regards:SH.
Blindbowman
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SHHHHH dont think like that .. they will find out its gone ... 
somehiker
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Mike:
Further to your post about the observations required in determination of what constitutes a marker or "monument" of the requisite age.
Without going to the trouble and expense of a scientific analysis of the material itself,we both have (though I am sure not exclusively) at our disposal something that the majority of seekers,both past and present,did or do not possess.I am speaking of specialized training.
The syllabus used during the progressive phases of your military training would have included many theoretical and practical demonstrations of how to visually detect anti-personnel explosives (mines-above and below ground),as well as evidence of enemy passage/activity or earthworks such as tunnels and observation posts,just to list a few examples of many.Whether we are aware of it or not,those very skills are at play whenever we are in field.They also help us to determine the approximate age and origin of man made creations or disturbances.I have,in past posts,tried to convey some of those observational methods such as visual scanning and detail observation.
Location,Location,Location applies well to both the "signpost" as well as the "indian head".The "pecked" petroglyph style markings are only visible in shaded light,whereas the "carved" -2 and 2 are what first drew my eye.Lichen growth has obscured much of the 1847,as well as partly filling the carved 2's.The trail itself has seen passage of a few hunters,perhaps a hiker or two,and many deer.It is located high,and in a rugged area though.So it is unlikely that the markings are recent or part of any prankster's scheme.It was a surprising and unexpected find.The "dagger" symbol was a bonus that I,at first glance,mistook for a cross.I had to convert the colour shot to greyscale for more of the object to show up on my lcd laptop monitor.It is much more visible on my CRT cad monitor.
The "indian head" was less unexpected.I was fairly confident that there would be some kind of visual aid at the end of that particular route,possibly related to the native aspect of Jesuit history.I was thinking of "teepees" when I crested the rise,but heh,an indian head will do.As with many old sculptures,erosion has removed some of the detail that was probably once there.
The rock is soft and easily abraded,probably how it was made IMO.I'll need to climb down for a closer look to confirm any more.
Regards:SH.
BTW Jerry....thanks for the comments.I'm glad that you enjoy my posts.
Further to your post about the observations required in determination of what constitutes a marker or "monument" of the requisite age.
Without going to the trouble and expense of a scientific analysis of the material itself,we both have (though I am sure not exclusively) at our disposal something that the majority of seekers,both past and present,did or do not possess.I am speaking of specialized training.
The syllabus used during the progressive phases of your military training would have included many theoretical and practical demonstrations of how to visually detect anti-personnel explosives (mines-above and below ground),as well as evidence of enemy passage/activity or earthworks such as tunnels and observation posts,just to list a few examples of many.Whether we are aware of it or not,those very skills are at play whenever we are in field.They also help us to determine the approximate age and origin of man made creations or disturbances.I have,in past posts,tried to convey some of those observational methods such as visual scanning and detail observation.
Location,Location,Location applies well to both the "signpost" as well as the "indian head".The "pecked" petroglyph style markings are only visible in shaded light,whereas the "carved" -2 and 2 are what first drew my eye.Lichen growth has obscured much of the 1847,as well as partly filling the carved 2's.The trail itself has seen passage of a few hunters,perhaps a hiker or two,and many deer.It is located high,and in a rugged area though.So it is unlikely that the markings are recent or part of any prankster's scheme.It was a surprising and unexpected find.The "dagger" symbol was a bonus that I,at first glance,mistook for a cross.I had to convert the colour shot to greyscale for more of the object to show up on my lcd laptop monitor.It is much more visible on my CRT cad monitor.
The "indian head" was less unexpected.I was fairly confident that there would be some kind of visual aid at the end of that particular route,possibly related to the native aspect of Jesuit history.I was thinking of "teepees" when I crested the rise,but heh,an indian head will do.As with many old sculptures,erosion has removed some of the detail that was probably once there.
The rock is soft and easily abraded,probably how it was made IMO.I'll need to climb down for a closer look to confirm any more.
Regards:SH.
BTW Jerry....thanks for the comments.I'm glad that you enjoy my posts.
Loke
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@SH
You are one of my most favourite topics :-)
Whenever I see a new post from you - it's a 'must read'
I can only thank you for what you are sharing - you give those of us unable to more or less regularly visit the Supe's an insight into all the things that are still there and not yet found - or found only by some few.
Please - keep it all coming - you _are_ appreciated though it may not be often expressed!
Per
You are one of my most favourite topics :-)
Whenever I see a new post from you - it's a 'must read'
I can only thank you for what you are sharing - you give those of us unable to more or less regularly visit the Supe's an insight into all the things that are still there and not yet found - or found only by some few.
Please - keep it all coming - you _are_ appreciated though it may not be often expressed!
Per
Cubfan64
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I've said it to a few people before, but I honestly believe if I were to put my $ on any one person to find something extraordinary out in the Superstitions, it would be Somehiker.
He sees stuff out there that most others pass by.
He sees stuff out there that most others pass by.
somehiker
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Per,Paul and Jerry:
I thank you all for the kind words,but if you keep it up I will need a larger ball cap.
'Sides,we are drifting off topic...the Stone Maps.
Gotta sign off,but before I go,one part of the puzzle that I now believe I have cracked.
On the Horse Map,the carver made a curved "incision" which we have given the term "heart cut".
It has been suggested that there is a connection between a Shakespearian quote from "Hamlet",
to whit "you would pluck out the heart of my mystery" and the person,or persons,who carved the Horse/Priest stone.
That theory,I suspect,relies on the quotation as a metaphor for the removable "Heart Stone" insert.
Keeping in mind that generations of students,past and present,have studied at least one of the Baird's masterpieces as a compulsory part of their english literary schooling,it follows that a few would remember such a passage while trying to unravel the mystery of the stones.I would still agree that,in this case,it is a very good analogy.
Likewise,a photograph of a small opening in the rock face of similar shape to the of the "incision" on the side of the horse which I had posted previously on this forum,also may have been a valid inspiration for the carver's detail.
However,as I have found more recently,something even more compelling to me at least.There is an area of mineral deposit in that location which has been partly removed,probably processed somewhere nearby,and I believe (from "in depth" examination) to have been used as a component of the actual "Heart" cache.
Just musing.
Regards:SH.
I thank you all for the kind words,but if you keep it up I will need a larger ball cap.
'Sides,we are drifting off topic...the Stone Maps.
Gotta sign off,but before I go,one part of the puzzle that I now believe I have cracked.
On the Horse Map,the carver made a curved "incision" which we have given the term "heart cut".
It has been suggested that there is a connection between a Shakespearian quote from "Hamlet",
to whit "you would pluck out the heart of my mystery" and the person,or persons,who carved the Horse/Priest stone.
That theory,I suspect,relies on the quotation as a metaphor for the removable "Heart Stone" insert.
Keeping in mind that generations of students,past and present,have studied at least one of the Baird's masterpieces as a compulsory part of their english literary schooling,it follows that a few would remember such a passage while trying to unravel the mystery of the stones.I would still agree that,in this case,it is a very good analogy.
Likewise,a photograph of a small opening in the rock face of similar shape to the of the "incision" on the side of the horse which I had posted previously on this forum,also may have been a valid inspiration for the carver's detail.
However,as I have found more recently,something even more compelling to me at least.There is an area of mineral deposit in that location which has been partly removed,probably processed somewhere nearby,and I believe (from "in depth" examination) to have been used as a component of the actual "Heart" cache.
Just musing.
Regards:SH.
Blindbowman
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i just wanted to say good luck to all of you .. yes it is true i was just loging on the site when it went down and took me with it ... the damage to my computer was massive .. . i lost my whole system and i have spend the last week trying to get it back up and running .. i lost over 1/2 million pages of data and over 42,000 photo a lot of them family photos that can not be replaced .. i had to format both my main drives and my back up .. and a new CPU . it still can not boot up on its own ..
i got a lot to do still ,you all take care
its good to see the site up and running again ..
no more for me ,.,, that was more then enough to last me a life time ..
i had a friend that takes care of the servers at a local collage check out my computer system ..
i lost 2/3 of the total system ...i cant recover this year ...with this and the death in my family i have nothing left .. sorry ..
i got a lot to do still ,you all take care
its good to see the site up and running again ..
no more for me ,.,, that was more then enough to last me a life time ..
i had a friend that takes care of the servers at a local collage check out my computer system ..
i lost 2/3 of the total system ...i cant recover this year ...with this and the death in my family i have nothing left .. sorry ..
Loke
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Blindbowman said:
Theoretically possible - IMHO very, very unlikely.
Oh its quite possible your computer is now stir-fry, but NOT because the site went down while you were on.
I thought we talked about backup not that long ago? ... and a 'backup' does not mean just another disk sitting in the same computer *lol*
Also - reformatting drives after an accident is the safest way ever to make sure you will never recover anything. For goodness sake, buy new drives, their cost is a pittance, and then when you are back in action again, try recovery - those are the basics!
Blindbowman
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the external drive was corupted as well and i do know what a back up is ..... i dont know why it crashed ,i was told that was the reason for the crash i have no idea why it picked then to do it .. it dosent matter at this point ,, i am not going back to AZ and i am out here latter
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
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HIO my buddy BB: you posted -->cant recover this year ...with this and the death in my family i have nothing left .. sorry ..
******************
Sniff, You still have Me !
Don Jose de La Mancha
******************
Sniff, You still have Me !
Don Jose de La Mancha
cactusjumper
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Don Jose,
"Sniff, You still have Me !"
Hmmmm.....That may be true, but you seldom write so often as ya yusta, you don't send flowers nomore......and then there's your obsession with that purty mule.
Observent Joe
"Sniff, You still have Me !"
Hmmmm.....That may be true, but you seldom write so often as ya yusta, you don't send flowers nomore......and then there's your obsession with that purty mule.
Observent Joe
Blindbowman
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Javaone said:Too much information...
love is in the fine details.....
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