The Peralta Stones

[Springfield]

.....

The A bars that are tilted (on the horse map) are used as a line to direct the user to locate a number of important clues. One line runs by the top of the crescent moon and then on to the word “Pedico” (Pedro {sic} the i and the c look like an r), while the other line enters and exits the crescent moon and ends at the elephant's eye. You all need to double check my lines and prove me right. There are a number of different translations for “Pedico”; Portuguese, Italian, Latin and Greek and this is right up Lamar's alley. I really do appreciate your input my friend; we have a lot of work ahead of us. Next is the Commentary on Mark of Nice, Father Kino and Manje discuss historical and geographical mythology.

I hope that we all have a great 4th of July!

Ellie Baba

The most important markers are often overlooked as merely subtle nuances. Hidden in plain view, you can't see the forest for the trees.

I'm wondering what you commentary on Marcos will be.

 

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[lamar]

Mike,

Do you have any idea how many thousands of people have paid to see the stones? Multiply that by 50 or 75 bucks, and that equals one institution makes thousands on one single exhibit.

That----------is the simple math.

Whether someone agrees - is not important. On one trip alone, the stones made over $75,000. (for 2 days) - pretty good work if you can get it.

Beth

Lamar dose this go for all of us "If you have a question that you would like to ask me"

if so then i have two questions for you . being the "very humble and modest soldier of Christ' ask you these two questions ..

1.) .. . who could make the jars of black death who had those skills back then ...?

2.) ,,,how dose one ever forget Christ ...?

Dar always lost;
I am afraid that I do not understand the questions my friend. Who you be so kind as to enlighten me a bit more?
Your friend;
LAMAR

evil in jars , demons that steal the mind and souls of anyone who touches them ...who made them ... black oil the smell of sulfur & volcanic gases

2 .. to touch the bones of Christ is to know he is with you always ,and forever , i ask you the same question again ...

Dear always lost;
1) This is the first time that I've read of such a thing as the *black jars of death* my friend. It seems to be a superstitious belief attached to some form of black magic and as such, my only interest in such a device would be from a purely academic standpoint. I am a staunchy follower of Jesus Christ therefore I do not entertain any beliefs in such items.
2) Regarding the *bones of Jesus Christ, this is the profession of my faith:
Credo in unum Deum,
Patrem omnipoténtem,
Factórem cæli et terræ,
Visibílium ómnium et invisibílium.
Et in unum Dóminum Iesum Christum,
Fílium Dei Unigénitum,
Et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sæcula.
Deum de Deo, lumen de lúmine, Deum verum de Deo vero,
Génitum, non factum, consubstantiálem Patri:
Per quem ómnia facta sunt.
Qui propter nos hómines et propter nostram salútem
Descéndit de cælis.
Et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto
Ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est.
Crucifíxus étiam pro nobis sub Póntio Piláto;
Passus, et sepúltus est,
Et resurréxit tértia die, secúndum Scriptúras,
Et ascéndit in cælum, sedet ad déxteram Patris.
Et íterum ventúrus est cum glória,
Iudicáre vivos et mórtuos,
Cuius regni non erit finis.
Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum et vivificántem:
Qui ex Patre Filióque procédit.
Qui cum Patre et Fílio simul adorátur et conglorificátur:
Qui locútus est per prophétas.
Et unam, sanctam, cathólicam et apostólicam Ecclésiam.
Confíteor unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatorum.
Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum,
Et vitam ventúri sæculi. Amen

In light of my profession of faith, I believe that Jesus Christ ascended into Heaven where He sits at the right hand of the Father, therefore Jesus Christ did not leave behind any mortal remains to be touched.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Jim Hatt;
I took the liberty of perusing your forum ………
I've yet to make a SINGLE POST on your forum!

Your friend;
LAMAR

I’m glad you had a chance to look around and see that we have lots of friendly people there with a lot of good information to share. No Trolls or Bullies interrupting the flow of any of the conversations. Things stay on topic and none of the discussions ever get hijacked. Must have seemed pretty dull to you tho?

Dear FEMF;
“ I've tried to assume the persona of a slightly absent-minded, arrogant Oxford professor who has little time to waste on dull students”

Your friend;
LAMAR

In view of this statement, it is probably best that you did not make any posts while you were there. One of the things we frown on the most is people who assume false personas, when they sit down at a keyboard, or establish multiple identities in forums, so they can play games with the members, as if they were all “dull students”.

My personal feelings about that kind of stuff is:

“NOT ON MY WATCH” (We have a few other Moderators over there that feel the same way) But it is what makes us different.

To each his own.

Best,

Jim

Dear Jim Hatt:
You wrote:
I’m glad you had a chance to look around and see that we have lots of friendly people there with a lot of good information to share. No Trolls or Bullies interrupting the flow of any of the conversations. Things stay on topic and none of the discussions ever get hijacked. Must have seemed pretty dull to you tho?
I might remind you that I am not posting on DUSA, yet I AM answering you on T-Net, therefore it would seem to me that you are the one who thinks it *pretty dull* on DUSA, which is why you are posting here instead of over there. It would also seem that thus far YOU are the only person on this topic who is acting like a "bully" or a "troll", to quote words from your own statement.
You also observed:


In view of this statement, it is probably best that you did not make any posts while you were there. One of the things we frown on the most is people who assume false personas, when they sit down at a keyboard, or establish multiple identities in forums, so they can play games with the members, as if they were all “dull students”.
On a personal note, I could care less about what you happen to frown upon over on DUSA as I do not post on that forum, and what's more I haven't the slightest intentions of posting on that forum. What's more, I estimate that about 90% of the active members on the DUSA forum are already very familiar with me and what my point of view is on a wide variety of subjects and topics, therefore I would have little fear of being out of place on the DUSA forum, if I in fact decided to start posting over there.

Also, it would seem to me that YOU are the one who is suffering from *multiple personas* as you so eloquently put it, as you tend to assume the role of a gracious and respectable host on DUSA, yet on T-Net you seem to assume the persona of an Internet bully. Know this fact very well, my friend. I do not know you. I have not heard of you before I read your posts on this particular topic. I did not know of the existence of a forum on DUSA until I read about it on this thread, yet you saw fit to attack my credibility and my personal nature without knowing me beforehand. I would classify this as *bullying*. Would you not do the same thing?

To close, I must now warn against the dangers of hypocrisy. It is a sin and it shows a decided lack of manners and breeding and as such, we must always be on guard against hypocrisy, lest we fall into that pit.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Ellie,

"He was a good friend of mine and passed away a few years ago. The horse shoes originated from the old "Heart Cross Ranch" near Cochran, AZ."

When FEMF first posted the pictures of those shoes, I looked into the Heart/Cross thingie. I found the "Heart Cross Ranch" in that search. I guessed that the shoes might have come from there, but did not pursue the information further.

My first thought on seeing the picture, was that it related to a brand, and that's the direction I searched. I remember thinking that the ranch may have had their shoes manufactured in bulk lots by......Le Croix.

Nice to hear the rest of the story.

Take care,

Joe

Hi All,
I had looked for the heart cross brand with no luck (Pinal County and Maricopa County Brand Registry back in August of 2008.

Will have the rest of the Heart Cross Ranch story tomorrow.

Violet Frakes was born in the second coke oven north of the Gila River in 1908. I will have the complete article tomorrow the 1st of July 2010! Holy cattle guard, half of this year is up and gone.

Dear Lamar,
I have a seat in my house where no one is allowed to sit as it is reserved for your appearance my friend. You are always welcomed to my campfire for a hot plate of pork and beans and a fresh cup of coffee. Please do not sleep to close to the fire!
The A bars that are tilted (on the horse map) are used as a line to direct the user to locate a number of important clues. One line runs by the top of the crescent moon and then on to the word “Pedico” (Pedro {sic} the i and the c look like an r), while the other line enters and exits the crescent moon and ends at the elephant's eye. You all need to double check my lines and prove me right. There are a number of different translations for “Pedico”; Portuguese, Italian, Latin and Greek and this is right up Lamar's alley. I really do appreciate your input my friend; we have a lot of work ahead of us. Next is the Commentary on Mark of Nice, Father Kino and Manje discuss historical and geographical mythology.

I hope that we all have a great 4th of July!

Ellie Baba

Dar Ellie Baba;
You so graciously wrote:
Dear Lamar,
I have a seat in my house where no one is allowed to sit as it is reserved for your appearance my friend. You are always welcomed to my campfire for a hot plate of pork and beans and a fresh cup of coffee.
You flatter me beyond words, my friend. Please know beforehand that I cannot accept a seat of honor, as my vows prohibit such a worldly display. Instead I would gladly sit on the floor as a sign of my humility and respect towards you and your household. It's always been done this way and I will not be the one to break with traditions.

Also, I ADORE pork & beans, as long as the day does not happen to be an ordinary Wednesday or Friday. On all ordinary Wednesdays throughout the year I tend to dine on a small piece of bread and some water and on all ordinary Fridays throughout the year I tend to refrain from eating meat in any form. The meatless Fridays are a general doctrine of my faith of course.

In advance I thank you with all of my being for your gracious hospitality and I shall look forward to conversing with you and your associates in the future.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Ellie,

"He was a good friend of mine and passed away a few years ago. The horse shoes originated from the old "Heart Cross Ranch" near Cochran, AZ."

When FEMF first posted the pictures of those shoes, I looked into the Heart/Cross thingie. I found the "Heart Cross Ranch" in that search. I guessed that the shoes might have come from there, but did not pursue the information further.

My first thought on seeing the picture, was that it related to a brand, and that's the direction I searched. I remember thinking that the ranch may have had their shoes manufactured in bulk lots by......Le Croix.

Nice to hear the rest of the story.

Take care,

Joe

Hi All,
I had looked for the heart cross brand with no luck (Pinal County and Maricopa County Brand Registry back in August of 2008.

Will have the rest of the Heart Cross Ranch story tomorrow.

Violet Frakes was born in the second coke oven north of the Gila River in 1908. I will have the complete article tomorrow the 1st of July 2010! Holy cattle guard, half of this year is up and gone.

Dear Lamar,
I have a seat in my house where no one is allowed to sit as it is reserved for your appearance my friend. You are always welcomed to my campfire for a hot plate of pork and beans and a fresh cup of coffee. Please do not sleep to close to the fire!
The A bars that are tilted (on the horse map) are used as a line to direct the user to locate a number of important clues. One line runs by the top of the crescent moon and then on to the word “Pedico” (Pedro {sic} the i and the c look like an r), while the other line enters and exits the crescent moon and ends at the elephant's eye. You all need to double check my lines and prove me right. There are a number of different translations for “Pedico”; Portuguese, Italian, Latin and Greek and this is right up Lamar's alley. I really do appreciate your input my friend; we have a lot of work ahead of us. Next is the Commentary on Mark of Nice, Father Kino and Manje discuss historical and geographical mythology.

I hope that we all have a great 4th of July!

Ellie Baba

Dear Ellie Baba;
I honestly do not know if the slanted crossbars on the As in the horse map were intentional or not, however I do know that A's with slanted crossbars were a very popular form of carving style among headstone makers in the days before stone carving machinery.

Tight grained stone, such as marble or granite, sometimes did not respond very well to the letterer's chisel and in light of this, the tight curve of the letter R would often times be rendered in such a manner as to make the letter almost identical to the letter A. In order to preclude this problem, headstone carvers would slant the crossbars on the A letters in order to more readily distinguish them from the similar letter R.

I do realize that the stones were carved from a very soft sandstone material, yet skills and habits tend to remain in place. It is because of this very fact that I feel that the horse stone was carved by a professional stone carver, and most likely that particular person was a highly trained and skilled memorial carver.

Also, a person who was not a trained headstone or memorial carver would not have known about the slanted crossbars on the letter A, as is clearly illustrated in the witch stone example, therefore I tend to conclude that the witch stone was carved by someone who was not a trained carver.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Cubfan64]

Lamar, I don't know how much you know about "always lost," but I wouldn't take him too seriously - in fact, considering your faith, you may want to pray for him. Here's one of his disturbing quotes from a few years ago...

you will in fact get a chance to see these mines are real ....the Apache steped up and said "who do you think you are?" . and i told them . i am william the commoner . christ brother and they backed away ......

Also - just a side note not that it really matters to your description of the stone carvings, but the priest (witch) stone and the horse stone are one in the same - just different sides of the same stone. It was mentioned a couple times, but you may have missed it.

As I said - it doesn't make any difference to your interpretation of the stone carvings as one side could have been carved much earlier or later than the other and by a different person as well - just wanted to be clear is all.

 

[Blindbowman]

Mike,

Do you have any idea how many thousands of people have paid to see the stones? Multiply that by 50 or 75 bucks, and that equals one institution makes thousands on one single exhibit.

That----------is the simple math.

Whether someone agrees - is not important. On one trip alone, the stones made over $75,000. (for 2 days) - pretty good work if you can get it.

Beth

Lamar dose this go for all of us "If you have a question that you would like to ask me"

if so then i have two questions for you . being the "very humble and modest soldier of Christ' ask you these two questions ..

1.) .. . who could make the jars of black death who had those skills back then ...?

2.) ,,,how dose one ever forget Christ ...?

Dar always lost;
I am afraid that I do not understand the questions my friend. Who you be so kind as to enlighten me a bit more?
Your friend;
LAMAR

evil in jars , demons that steal the mind and souls of anyone who touches them ...who made them ... black oil the smell of sulfur & volcanic gases

2 .. to touch the bones of Christ is to know he is with you always ,and forever , i ask you the same question again ...

Dear always lost;
1) This is the first time that I've read of such a thing as the *black jars of death* my friend. It seems to be a superstitious belief attached to some form of black magic and as such, my only interest in such a device would be from a purely academic standpoint. I am a staunchy follower of Jesus Christ therefore I do not entertain any beliefs in such items.
2) Regarding the *bones of Jesus Christ, this is the profession of my faith:
Credo in unum Deum,
Patrem omnipoténtem,
Factórem cæli et terræ,
Visibílium ómnium et invisibílium.
Et in unum Dóminum Iesum Christum,
Fílium Dei Unigénitum,
Et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sæcula.
Deum de Deo, lumen de lúmine, Deum verum de Deo vero,
Génitum, non factum, consubstantiálem Patri:
Per quem ómnia facta sunt.
Qui propter nos hómines et propter nostram salútem
Descéndit de cælis.
Et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto
Ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est.
Crucifíxus étiam pro nobis sub Póntio Piláto;
Passus, et sepúltus est,
Et resurréxit tértia die, secúndum Scriptúras,
Et ascéndit in cælum, sedet ad déxteram Patris.
Et íterum ventúrus est cum glória,
Iudicáre vivos et mórtuos,
Cuius regni non erit finis.
Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum et vivificántem:
Qui ex Patre Filióque procédit.
Qui cum Patre et Fílio simul adorátur et conglorificátur:
Qui locútus est per prophétas.
Et unam, sanctam, cathólicam et apostólicam Ecclésiam.
Confíteor unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatorum.
Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum,
Et vitam ventúri sæculi. Amen

In light of my profession of faith, I believe that Jesus Christ ascended into Heaven where He sits at the right hand of the Father, therefore Jesus Christ did not leave behind any mortal remains to be touched.
Your friend;
LAMAR

so are you saying Christ is a methodological being not of the real world or realities we share he between us..

i am glad to see you wonder about the same things we do .. faith is funny thing , it can hold safe and hold you captive at the same time ..

so do you believe the shrewd of terrine was warped around a image of what Christ would have been if he was real ..

and no before you ask . i know god is real i don't believe in faith ..

knowing and under stand a greater being then one's self is often lost in fear of self worth under the over sight of massive beings we dont fully under stand our self..

i dont have to beleive in any one god to under stand the patterns of faith and self growth ..

the creator wares many mask to help us under stand him with out fear .. his rath work just fine when he dose need to make a point ..

so do you believe the cross and Christ death is a teaching add and not a real event ...i believe it all comes down to what story you hear and whom is telling it and why ..

i find it hard to side with a under stand of some one that destroyed book because they dont side with their own views and self serving goals ..

we come from different sides of the same faith . i hold my faith within and live it day by day ..i need only the church within my human shell to hold me safe in the eyes of creator ..

o yes my friend i warship just as much as you do but i warship the being with in that the creator designed and i hold within me all my days ..

become one with the being with in and see the image that lives within us all ...

as for the jars , they are not legend ... i assume they are some kind of offing that has turn in to hell on earth for who ever touches them or moves them ...my question was only direct to the design of the jars, and if you had first hand wisdom of any other jars of that type ..

the only jars i have seen that look like them are dead sea scrolls ...

 

[Blindbowman]

Lamar, I don't know how much you know about "always lost," but I wouldn't take him too seriously - in fact, considering your faith, you may want to pray for him. Here's one of his disturbing quotes from a few years ago...

you will in fact get a chance to see these mines are real ....the Apache steped up and said "who do you think you are?" . and i told them . i am william the commoner . christ brother and they backed away ......

Also - just a side note not that it really matters to your description of the stone carvings, but the priest (witch) stone and the horse stone are one in the same - just different sides of the same stone. It was mentioned a couple times, but you may have missed it.

As I said - it doesn't make any difference to your interpretation of the stone carvings as one side could have been carved much earlier or later than the other and by a different person as well - just wanted to be clear is all.

Cup, i would not throw to many stones yet , you are human my friend .are we not all his brothers and sisters . do not believe in god ,, how foolish cups can be made to hold but seldom under stand the true meanings ..

did you think this up why siding a mt peak somewhere wondering what guides your very being .. fail to question the hand the guides you and you no longer have a soul ...

cup you are one of my oldest friends on this site .. under stand its meaning and enjoy the gift .. as you know the rocks you throw can be thrown ...

some day i will give you a greater wealth then you could ever under stand ..

 

[lamar]

FEMF,

I put Lamar on "IGNORE" a while back because I found myself having to repeat the same proofs over and over and over. At first, he added a lot to the conversations and kept us on our toes. He then degenerated into acting offended at some inconsequential remark so he wouldn't have to address the subject at hand when he was proven wrong. Further debate with him became very frustrating and did nothing to further any knowledge.

I guess you must have some inside knowledge that proves the heart insert is older than the trail stones. Have you ever seen the Stone Maps in person? Yesterday was my third time. First time hands on (see pic). The heart is made from a different type of stone than the trail maps. I can't say that it is any older or younger.

The symbol on the handle of the dagger is not necessarily an "A". Please compare the symbol to every other "A" on the maps. It actually more closely resembles another symbol somewhere else on the maps.

Best-Mike

Hello Mike
Yes I've seen them three times at M.M. Museum, the first time was with Mason Cogan for free, the next time it was $50.00, the last time was with Mikael Davis, a San Carlos medicine man and it cost me $75.00.
I'm at work right now and I don't have those maps on this computer, but I'll check when I get home.
Mike we have found another horse shoe with the Cross in a Heart?
FEMF
P.S. As I've told you before Mike,"ALL THE WAY" "ALL THE TIME" old school!

Dear FEMF;
Regarding your horseshoes, they are interesting from a purely historical point of view, my friend. First, the complete shoe was manufactured sometime after 1835 due to the way it was manufactured. It does not seem to have been hand formed on an anvil from iron bar stock, rather it seems to be a mass produced shoe which are produced by specialized machinery.

This may be evidenced by the remnants of the groove located in the zones where the nail heads are seated onto the shoe. The grooves are placed there in order to keep the nail heads from wearing down, thus throwing the shoe after a short period of time. The manufacture of the nail head grooves (also called a Fuller groove) is a very simple one when using forming dies, yet they are extremely difficult to produce using hand methods, as the iron tends to expand directionally, thus making the shoe wider and thinner. Also, I seem to be able to discern a forging mark which seems to be a broken heart.

The narrow shoe body plus the wear on the outside portion of the shoe indicates that the shoe was worn by a small animal and used as a beast of burden. Typical shoes normally wear evenly along the front of the toe clip, yet this particular shoe is worn along the outside, which indicates the animal in question typically carried large weights, thus altering the balance of it's print.

The half shoe is older and it looks to be a completely hand made one. The animal was much bigger and it seems to have been from a smaller draft style horse. As such, it would have most probably been used as a beast of burden as well, for attempting to ride a draft animal can be painfully uncomfortable, due to the heavy plodding steps of the breed.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Blindbowman]

The half shoe is older and it looks to be a completely hand made one. The animal was much bigger and it seems to have been from a smaller draft style horse.

that would depend on who made the shoe and when .. OX were often shewed in the same way and i do remember a time when a legend stated Ox and wooden cards ...

 

[lamar]

The half shoe is older and it looks to be a completely hand made one. The animal was much bigger and it seems to have been from a smaller draft style horse.

that would depend on who made the shoe and when .. OX were often shewed in the same way and i do remember a time when a legend stated Ox and wooden cards ...

Dear always lost;
The half shoe in the photo by FEMF is most definitely not an ox shoe, my friend, as the shape of an oxen's hoof is completely different from the hoof of a horse or mule, therefore the shape of the shoes are completely different as well. Please review the attached photo of half of a ox's shoe.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Lamar, I don't know how much you know about "always lost," but I wouldn't take him too seriously - in fact, considering your faith, you may want to pray for him. Here's one of his disturbing quotes from a few years ago...

you will in fact get a chance to see these mines are real ....the Apache steped up and said "who do you think you are?" . and i told them . i am william the commoner . christ brother and they backed away ......

Also - just a side note not that it really matters to your description of the stone carvings, but the priest (witch) stone and the horse stone are one in the same - just different sides of the same stone. It was mentioned a couple times, but you may have missed it.

As I said - it doesn't make any difference to your interpretation of the stone carvings as one side could have been carved much earlier or later than the other and by a different person as well - just wanted to be clear is all.

Dear Cubfan64;
Yes I understand that the horse carving and the witch carving are on the same stone, yet I tend to refer to them as separate works in order to avoid confusion.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Jim Hatt]

Lamar.

My only reason for coming to T-Net, is to dispel wild theories about the stone maps and what is written on them. If you take this as a personal attack on you, so be it. But was not my intention and I have no control over how you perceive things.

If someone (anyone) challenges the authenticity of the stone maps, based on nothing but their knee jerk reaction to words and symbols engraved on them. I remind them of the following:

The only way to “gauge” the validity of any map is to have some parallel information to compare it to.

One way would be to compare it to a proven map of the same area it is suspected of applying to.

Another is to go to the area it is assumed to apply to, and see if it matches the terrain in that area.

Even then… A lot of consideration would have to be given to how detailed, or ambiguous the map maker intended the map to be, and any security factors that may be incorporated into it. Especially if the map was believed to lead to anything of value. Anyone who looks at a treasure map, or a map that leads to a lost mine, and immediately starts forming conclusions based on superficial observations, is not someone whose opinion I would put much faith in.

Judging the validity of any map, by the spelling and grammar used on it, the material it was drawn on, or any subjective opinions, about the meaning of any symbols on it, is ridiculous, no matter who the author might have been, or when it was believed to have been drawn.

Lamar Wrote:

“This is some sort of joke, isn't it? The evidence against the stone maps being carved before the 1940s is pretty much ENDLESS! FOr example:
The style of the lettering
The style of caricatures (figures)
The Bowie knife
The shape of the heart
The position of the brand on the horse
The so-called *Spanish* words used
The grammar
The tools used to carve the stone maps”


You may believe that the reasons stated above are valid reasons for dismissing the validity of the stone maps.
I disagree.

Jim Hatt

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Heck down here they make the shoes out of rebar. Only silver has better traction on slick rock surfaces, but doesen't wear as well.
was
Lamar, during WW-2, the Pope told us that it was alright to eat meat on friday ??

Do Jose de La Mancha

 

[Cubfan64]

Lamar, I don't know how much you know about "always lost," but I wouldn't take him too seriously - in fact, considering your faith, you may want to pray for him. Here's one of his disturbing quotes from a few years ago...

you will in fact get a chance to see these mines are real ....the Apache steped up and said "who do you think you are?" . and i told them . i am william the commoner . christ brother and they backed away ......

Also - just a side note not that it really matters to your description of the stone carvings, but the priest (witch) stone and the horse stone are one in the same - just different sides of the same stone. It was mentioned a couple times, but you may have missed it.

As I said - it doesn't make any difference to your interpretation of the stone carvings as one side could have been carved much earlier or later than the other and by a different person as well - just wanted to be clear is all.

Dear Cubfan64;
Yes I understand that the horse carving and the witch carving are on the same stone, yet I tend to refer to them as separate works in order to avoid confusion.
Your friend;
LAMAR

*nods* understood

 

[Jim Hatt]

Jim H.,

Not that I'm trying to toot anybody's horn, here, but, DUSA has changed over the last
few months. It is an interesting forum, to be sure, but, in the last few months, DUSA
has added topics, and moderators, and it now has people to "fend off" and/or discuss
topics with people who have varying degrees of both experience and ideas. I think this
has made for a happier forum - thus, a forum that SHOULD be growing in membership.
Beth

That too Beth!

It is definitely a big asset to have Moderators that have first hand experience, in the topic they are moderating, and participate in the discussions. Even if they don't always agree with each other. It does give a more balanced view of the subject, without it turning into an all out war.

My apologies for not giving credit, where credit is due in that respect.

Best,

Jim

 

[FEMF]

FEMF,

I put Lamar on "IGNORE" a while back because I found myself having to repeat the same proofs over and over and over. At first, he added a lot to the conversations and kept us on our toes. He then degenerated into acting offended at some inconsequential remark so he wouldn't have to address the subject at hand when he was proven wrong. Further debate with him became very frustrating and did nothing to further any knowledge.

I guess you must have some inside knowledge that proves the heart insert is older than the trail stones. Have you ever seen the Stone Maps in person? Yesterday was my third time. First time hands on (see pic). The heart is made from a different type of stone than the trail maps. I can't say that it is any older or younger.

The symbol on the handle of the dagger is not necessarily an "A". Please compare the symbol to every other "A" on the maps. It actually more closely resembles another symbol somewhere else on the maps.

Best-Mike

Hello Mike
Yes I've seen them three times at M.M. Museum, the first time was with Mason Cogan for free, the next time it was $50.00, the last time was with Mikael Davis, a San Carlos medicine man and it cost me $75.00.
I'm at work right now and I don't have those maps on this computer, but I'll check when I get home.
Mike we have found another horse shoe with the Cross in a Heart?
FEMF
P.S. As I've told you before Mike,"ALL THE WAY" "ALL THE TIME" old school!

Dear FEMF;
Regarding your horseshoes, they are interesting from a purely historical point of view, my friend. First, the complete shoe was manufactured sometime after 1835 due to the way it was manufactured. It does not seem to have been hand formed on an anvil from iron bar stock, rather it seems to be a mass produced shoe which are produced by specialized machinery.

This may be evidenced by the remnants of the groove located in the zones where the nail heads are seated onto the shoe. The grooves are placed there in order to keep the nail heads from wearing down, thus throwing the shoe after a short period of time. The manufacture of the nail head grooves (also called a Fuller groove) is a very simple one when using forming dies, yet they are extremely difficult to produce using hand methods, as the iron tends to expand directionally, thus making the shoe wider and thinner. Also, I seem to be able to discern a forging mark which seems to be a broken heart.

The narrow shoe body plus the wear on the outside portion of the shoe indicates that the shoe was worn by a small animal and used as a beast of burden. Typical shoes normally wear evenly along the front of the toe clip, yet this particular shoe is worn along the outside, which indicates the animal in question typically carried large weights, thus altering the balance of it's print.

The half shoe is older and it looks to be a completely hand made one. The animal was much bigger and it seems to have been from a smaller draft style horse. As such, it would have most probably been used as a beast of burden as well, for attempting to ride a draft animal can be painfully uncomfortable, due to the heavy plodding steps of the breed.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Hello Lamar
I'm pressed for time right now, but I will respond.
Thank you.
FEMF

 

[Blindbowman]

Jim H.,

Not that I'm trying to toot anybody's horn, here, but, DUSA has changed over the last
few months. It is an interesting forum, to be sure, but, in the last few months, DUSA
has added topics, and moderators, and it now has people to "fend off" and/or discuss
topics with people who have varying degrees of both experience and ideas. I think this
has made for a happier forum - thus, a forum that SHOULD be growing in membership.
Beth

That too Beth!

It is definitely a big asset to have Moderators that have first hand experience, in the topic they are moderating, and participate in the discussions. Even if they don't always agree with each other. It does give a more balanced view of the subject, without it turning into an all out war.

My apologies for not giving credit, where credit is due in that respect.

Best,

Jim

wow when i got to agree with you Jim , its a sunny day .. but i do agree . even if i think a open boundary is the best way to locate and recover unknown clues and data . it dose not defined a web site or its goal for making money or collecting members ..

even if some people at this site do not agree with me i do not hunt for ways to disrupt the web site it self .. some may think i have misled others , not any more then most of the members on here. i have could a few dozen out right lies so far ..

i respect and honer your hard work and even if i have to create this mask , some day i will lay it down and be glad to shake your hand if that day comes .. most likely not , i am waiting to see the test results for lung cancer .. i still go to your site and read .. well done

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Lamar,

I really don't know you - especially since you say you have a "persona" - which, to me, means "fake", but I've read just about everything you have posted on this side of Tnet.

Aside from your views about the Jesuits (which sounds a lot, to me like "teachings" more than anything else) and aside from anything else you may have said, or posted - one thing I would like to remind you about - you don't go to someone else's house and poop on their lawn. Basic
respect - for yourself, if not for Jim or others at DUSA.

When you go to a bank, you should act like you are in a bank. When you go to a carnival, then different actions are considered ok. But, that
doesn't mean that you should ONLY go to one bank or one carnival.

Most well-rounded people - even ones we don't agree with - have several forums we go to. Each one offers something a little different. YOU go to different forums - why shouldn't Jim? Or anyone else?

Maybe its time to stop talking about personals, and get back to the subject at hand?

Beth

 

[Ellie Baba]

Bueynos Diaz,
The following attachment involves a conversation between Padre Kino and Manje concerning an error involving a wrong turn, which resulted in the failure of the Coronado expedition in actually locating the Seven Cities of Cibola. Understand a very important fact; Padre Kino and Manje knew where the Seven Cities were/are located. We will take this initial information and developed a foundation of understanding and I will provide the proof that Kino and Manje knew what they were talking about.
The reason we are starting here is due to the fact the treasures that were hidden in this area actually existed. Father Kino knew the truth, as did Coronado, De Niza, Friar Marcos, Estaban and notably Antonio de Herrera, a noted historian who worked directly with King Phillip in Spain. Antonio had documented all of the accounts from those who were involved in the New World and produced a number of volumes regarding these historical documents including those from Cortez and Bernal Dias (Diaz). You will have to excuse my short and incomplete comments as the whole of this work is very large.
Check out this amazing piece of history and do your homework (if interested) and let me know about your thoughts and questions. Ok Lamar, the Jesuits are involved my friend, sit back and I will provide the evidence to prove this statement is correct.
Another point I wish to make;
John 3:16 (New Living Translation)
16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
This scripture (is it really the Word of God?) Or an atrocity to the original Greek and Hebrew?
It is contained in a Bible, although the words were translated from original texts, a father re-wrote the scriptures so that his daughter could make sense of what the scriptures were actually saying. John 3:16 is a perfect example of a verse found on millions of 8" by 11" sized paper formats and framed.
Many are very old indeed, worth millions of dollars. Some are cheap fakes, and you can also buy this framed John 3:16 posters for a buck, less the frame.
Anyway, an old antique copy of this work was found worth over thousands of dollars, at least until it was proven a fraud. Does this fact insinuate that the scripture written on this fake art object is also untrue? Enter the "Peralta Stone Tablets". I will show you how to interpret many of the symbols found on these antiquated modern day produced stone tablets (not all symbols).
Have a great week,

Ellie Baba


Father Kino and Manje discuss historical and geographical mythology

COMMENTARY ON MARK OF NICE, 1 539- 481

[City of] Mexico, fell upon a river so large and full
of water (caudaloso) that it prevented his crossing;

viceroy, Antonio de Mendoza, at Tonala, in New Galicia, Nov.
25, 1538. We have these instructions, in Spanish, French,
Italian, and English, in divers records; also Friar Marcos' own
acknowledgment of their reception by him, as just said. Pur-
suant thereto, he left San Miguel de Culiacan, in Sinaloa, Mar.
7, 1539. with his guide Stephen, his lay brother Honorato, and
the Indians. His course was by the highway northnorthwest
to Rio de Petatlan, the modern Rio del Fuerte, where Fray
Honorato fell sick and was left behind. Continuing the same
course, approximately parallel with, but at considerable distance
from, the coast, Fray Marcos crossed the Rios Mayo and Yaqui,
and about the middle of April was at a place called Vacapa or
Bacapa. This is specially to be noted; for the name has been
confounded with a certain San Luis Beltran de Bacapa, in
northwestern Sonora near the Arizona line, and thus Fray Mar-
cos has been sent by various writers promenading in a country
he never even approached, to the dire confusion of his whole
route. But Bacapa was an Indian village on the headwaters
of the Rio Matapa, about lat. 29", and was at or near the modern
town of Matape, in central Sonora, where the Jesuit mission of
San Jose de Matapa was founded in 1629. It was this miserable
malidentification of Bacapa, traceable back at least to Mange,
Mar. 12, 1702,^ which threw Friar Marcos' route out, altogether
too far to the northwest, at the hands of many historians or
commentators, who fetched him up low down on the Gila, made

'At this date, when Mange was with Kino at San Luis de Bacapa, he
indulged in the bit of historical and geographical mythology I wish to
signalize as such : " Y parece es por la que paso el ejercito de Francisco
Vazquez Coronado el aiio de 1540 cuando fueron a descubrir las 7 ciudades
de los llanos de Zivola, pues este nombre mismo le da el cronista Antonio
de Herrera en la de cada 4. a descubriendo este viaje, y que dista 40 leguas
del mar, y la misma distancia hallamos en ella," etc. Bacapa ! One day's
journey from Sonoita ! O Coronate .' Quandoque qualescunque quantcB-
cunque fabulce de te narrantur ! It all comes from mistaking this Bacapa
for the place on Rio Matape of the same or similar name, which happens to
be about the same distance from the gulf.

Father Louis Hoffman’s translation;
"And it seems that the army of Francisco Vazquez passed through (here) in the year 1540 when they went to discover the 7 cities on the plains of Zibola which is the same name that the chronicler Antonio de Herrera gives in each of the 4 ( 4 what?) discovering (discovered) this trip and it distances 40 leagues from the sea, and that is the same distance that we found it to be," etc. Bacapa! One day's journey from Sonoita! Oh Coronado, (here are 3 different possibilities)
1.- "when anyone speaks of you, it is of fabulous things (riches) (?)
2.- ..................speaks fabulous things of you
3.- when anyone speaks of you, fabulous (rich) things are mentioned

Second Translation;

"And it seems it happened by the army of Francisco Vasquez Coronado the aiio 1540 when they went to discover the 7 cities of the plains of Zivola (Cibola) because this name itself gives the chronicler Antonio de Herrera in the in 4. To discover this trip, which is 40 leagues from the sea, and the same distance found in it,"etc. Bacapa! One day's journey from Sonoita! O Coronato, " Qualescunque Quandoque quantcB-cunque fabulce narrantur tea!


482 COMMENTARY ON MARK OF NICE, 1 539-

(this was no doubt the Colorado — interpolation of the
scholiast) ; and he (or it — the relation) continues, say-

him the discoverer of the Casa Grande of that river, and then
spirited him to Cibola as best they could: see for example Niza’s
alleged but impossible route, on the map facing p. 42 of Ban-
croft's Hist. Ariz, and N. M.

Friar Marcos stayed some days at Bacapa, whence he dis-
patched Stephen ahead to reconnoiter, telling him to go north
some 50 or 60 leagues and send back word of what he found.
The second day after Easter Sunday he followed after, and in
three days reached the Rio Sonora in the vicinity of modern
Babiacora. Here was a village of Opatas, who had given
Stephen his first reports of Cibola, duly sent back to the friar;
Cibola was said to be 30 days' journey thence, to be the first one
of seven cities; and other provinces called Marata, Acus, and
Totonteac were reported. Friar Marcos followed up the Rio
Sonora for a week in the wake of the negro, who appears to
have been meanwhile hurrying on ahead to Cibola, thus to
secure for himself the glory of discovering that kingdom of
which so many wonders had been narrated — and in fact he did
acquire that glory, meeting death at the same time. The friar
took formal possession of the Sonora valley, and on the seventh
day reached the last settlement, somewhere in the vicinity of
modern Bacuachi, a little north of the better known Arizpe.
Then for four days he traveled northward " en el despoblado."
This term " despoblado," translated " desert," has been a fruit-
ful source of misunderstanding regarding the route of Coronado
as well as of Friar Marcos. It does not mean a desert, in a
physiographic sense, but simply a deserted, depopulated, or an
uninhabited place — in fine, a wilderness; the traverse of which,
still northward, took the friar over from headwaters of Rio
Sonora to sources of Rio Nexpa or the modern San Pedro
river, on the confines of Arizona. I regard this identification
as assured; those who have sent Marcos down the modern Rio



COMMENTARY ON MARK OF NICE, 1 539- 483

ing that the Indians of this (river) informed him that

at about ten days' journey to the north there was an-

Santa Cruz, through Tucson, Florence, Phoenix, or anywhere
else so far west, are certainly at fault; he was on the San Pedro,
as he was also with Coronado the next year; and he went down
that river, past the vicinity of Tombstone and other well-known
Arizona places.

At this point in the Relacion comes up a matter which
seems to have needlessly puzzled many commentators, and
even caused some of them to send Fray Marcos to a sup-
posed west coast in an impossible lat. 35°. But I find
nothing in the original Spanish to require such a forcible
construction of his words. I think that he does not say
he went to see about the trend of the coast, but simply sought
to learn about it ("quiselo saber," he says) from hearsay; "y asi
fui en demanda delta y vi claramente " need not mean more than
that he demanded of Indians how the case was, and was given
to understand clearly what they told him. At this stage of his
journey he was on the Rio San Pedro, then called Nexpa, say
200 miles or more from the Gulf of California in an air line, say
lat. 31° 30' or 40', among the Sobaipuri Indians; and he was fol-
lowing down the river northward.

At the last village of the Sobaipuris Friar Marcos remained
three days and then plunged into the despoblado or wilderness,
which he was told it would take him 15 days to cross, to reach
Cibola. This was on the 9th of May old style, or the 19th
new style. He was still traveling on the trail of the negro,
which probably is not now ascertainable with entire precision,
as it was " across country " and not along any recognizable
water-course after the San Pedro had been left. His point of
departure from this river is not fixed; but in any event his mean
course was about north northeast, across the Gila and the
Salado, necessarily, and so on to Zuiii. It seems to me alto-
gether most probable that Estevan’s trail, which Friar Marcos

484 COMMENTARY ON MARK OF NICE, 1 539.

Other larger river, inhabited by much people, whose

multitude they explained with fistfuls of sand; that

followed exactly, was the same as, or scarcely differed from,
that which Coronado followed, accompanied by the friar, the
very next year. As lately worked out by Mr. Hodge, this
route left the San Pedro in the vicinity of the present Benson;
went through Dragoon and Railroad passes, as the railroad
does now; reached the Gila at or near Solomonville (in which
vicinity was the much mooted Chichilticalli or Red House of
the Coronado relations); passed the Gila Bonito high up, and
thus in the S. E. corner of the present White Mountain reser-
vation; crossed the Salado or Salt river, believed to be the Rio
de las Balsas or Raft river of the Coronado relations; and thus
attained some of the headwaters of the Colorado Chiquito;
whence the distance was short to the Rio Vermejo or modern
Zuni river, which appears to have been struck a few miles below
the point where it crosses the present boundary between
Arizona and New Mexico. Thence it was only a day's journey
to the first Zunian or Cibolan pueblo, Hawiku, about six miles
east of the boundary last said.

Pursuing the route thus sketched, or one closely approxi-
mate thereto, for twelve days, which brought the friar within
two or three days of his destination, on the 21st-31st of May,
he was met by a fugitive from Cibola — one of the many Indians
who had accompanied Estevanico thither — with the startling
news that the negro had been killed by the Cibolans. Ac-
counts of the affair differ in detail, as usual, and it is not neces-
sary to go into them here; of the main fact there is no question.
This catastrophe put an entrada into Cibola out of the ques-
tion; but Friar Marcos determined not to desist without at
least a view of the promised land. He was led by two of his
Indians to a spot whence he sighted the nearest one of the
Seven Cities of Cibola, la qual estd scntada en un llano, a la fald-a
de un cerro redondo — " which is situated in a plain at the skirt



COMMENTARY OK MARK OF NICE, 1 539- 485

they had houses of three stories, and walled about
(were) their pueblos, and that they went clothed
and shod with antelope (skins) and mantles of cotton.
My opinion is confirmed by the fundamental fact {el
fundamento grabe) that, the river coming from the
northeast with regard to the place where I acquired
information thereof, there is agreement of the ten-
days' journey to the river cited in the relation above
mentioned. Also in the circumstances of the cloth-
ing I have grounds (fundamento — for my opinion),

of a round hill." This was not Kiakima, as Bandelier once
thought, but, as Hodge has shown, it was the Pueblo of
Hawiku, Hauicu, or Havico, a mile or so from modern Zuni
Hot Springs, or Ojo Caliente. At his coign of vantage, in full
view of this southwestern one of the Zuiii pueblos or Cities of
Cibola, Friar Marcos erected a stone cairn with a wooden cross
atop, took possession in due form of Cibola, Totonteac, Acus, and
Marata, named the whole country Nuevo Reyno de San Fran-
cisco, and turned back from his great discovery " with much
more fright than food " (con harto mas temor que comida), as he
pithily says in his Relacion.

Such, in briefest outline, are the journey and discovery of Friar
Marcos de Niza. There never need have been the slightest
question, much less mystery, of the location of the Seven Cities
of Cibola, whose identification with the Zuiiian pueblos has
never been entirely lost sight of, though so often disputed or
denied, down to the present day. After this exploit the monk
made all haste to return to Culiacan by the way he had gone
then to Cibola: and by September, 1539, he had duly attested
the report which he made to the proper authorities at the City
of Mexico, where he died March 25, 1558.