Hal Croves
Silver Member
I am not sure if it is a language barrier, but I think that you should re-read some of my posts. Being modern does not necessarily make them a hoax.
The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own
- Thread starter EE THr
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I am not sure if it is a language barrier, but I think that you should re-read some of my posts. Being modern does not necessarily make them a hoax.
somehiker
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http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=812914&d=1371136013&thumb=1
"You will know this trail."
The Boulder Trail is a great day hike, and one I have recommended to folks who like photography and distant views.
Did you look for the vent mentioned in the geo report ? I'm pretty sure it can be seen on GE as well.
I've looked into many different ideas and posted quite a few over the last four years. Problem is, if you consider the stones to be of modern origin, there are too many possibilities. Even 1930-1940 (Tom's aquaintance) as a narrower time frame still leaves a large cast of characters to choose from. Imagine how many there would be if the stones were found today...If what lies at the end of my own trail gives me the answer, I'll be satisfied. I can wait till then.
Regards:SH.
"You will know this trail."
The Boulder Trail is a great day hike, and one I have recommended to folks who like photography and distant views.
Did you look for the vent mentioned in the geo report ? I'm pretty sure it can be seen on GE as well.
I've looked into many different ideas and posted quite a few over the last four years. Problem is, if you consider the stones to be of modern origin, there are too many possibilities. Even 1930-1940 (Tom's aquaintance) as a narrower time frame still leaves a large cast of characters to choose from. Imagine how many there would be if the stones were found today...If what lies at the end of my own trail gives me the answer, I'll be satisfied. I can wait till then.
Regards:SH.
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cactusjumper
Gold Member
Marius,
No. I don't "adopt" anyone's theory. Yes, your theory would be more credible if you have been in the mountains. I don't think with my heart, only use my brain for such tasks.
Thanks for your reply,
Joe
Hal Croves
Silver Member
How do you define "a sense of humor"?
View attachment 813532
I think that humor is a big part of this "mystery".
View attachment 813558
J. Hayden
I don't expect to convince you.
I only hope to explain, with some level of success, what it is that I see as one very real possibility.
Regarding a "viable motive"... that is a conversation for the campfire, among friend.
But look at the clipping below.*
Halseth was trusted, and not just by those closest to him.
OK, except by Hayden.
View attachment 813576
View attachment 813577
J. Hayden
Odd was the "Indian's Banker".
Look at how many recordings he made of Native American chants, dances, stories, and secrets.
Secrets.
Some so important that Odd refused to allow public access to them.. "some will never be heard".
A promise he had made to friends.
What could those recordings possibly tell us?
One story that not many know about.
One evening a young man was caught listening in on the conversation of a gathering of Indian men.
The group may have been something similar to the Freemasons, but in the Indian way.
It is not clear.
It was decided that the risk was far too great to allow the young man to remain alive and so, the group elected the young man to be killed.
Somehow, someway, Odd intervened and saved the young man from death.
Now, if the story is correct, and I believe it to be so, than that indicates that Odd was someone influential among the nations.
Someone who a native could trust to preserve and protect a secret.
*
View attachment 813519
View attachment 813532
I think that humor is a big part of this "mystery".
View attachment 813558
J. Hayden
I don't expect to convince you.
I only hope to explain, with some level of success, what it is that I see as one very real possibility.
Regarding a "viable motive"... that is a conversation for the campfire, among friend.
But look at the clipping below.*
Halseth was trusted, and not just by those closest to him.
OK, except by Hayden.
View attachment 813576
View attachment 813577
J. Hayden
Odd was the "Indian's Banker".
Look at how many recordings he made of Native American chants, dances, stories, and secrets.
Secrets.
Some so important that Odd refused to allow public access to them.. "some will never be heard".
A promise he had made to friends.
What could those recordings possibly tell us?
One story that not many know about.
One evening a young man was caught listening in on the conversation of a gathering of Indian men.
The group may have been something similar to the Freemasons, but in the Indian way.
It is not clear.
It was decided that the risk was far too great to allow the young man to remain alive and so, the group elected the young man to be killed.
Somehow, someway, Odd intervened and saved the young man from death.
Now, if the story is correct, and I believe it to be so, than that indicates that Odd was someone influential among the nations.
Someone who a native could trust to preserve and protect a secret.
*
View attachment 813519
I am not sure why you are so quick to dismiss the man.
He has many, many connections to the stones.
They are circumstantial connections, yes, but there are so many they can not be ignored.
IMO- It would be a mistake to remove Odd from the list of "possible suspects".
From the AZ Republic "Work At Ruins Is Reviewed"
"Odd Halseth, city archaeologist, yesterday outlined some of the work done at Pueblo Grand Museum....
.. at the weekly luncheon meeting of the Phoenix ___ Club in Masonic Temple.
... The club made plans for a trip Friday, Saturday and Sunday over the Tonto National Forest with F. Lee Kirby, forest supervisor. The groups itinerary will include Ashdale, Bloody Basin, Cord_s, Camp Verde, Fossil Creek, Pine, Tonto Natural Bridge, a trip over the service control road under the Mogollon Rim, Payson, Young...Roosevelt Dam and return via the Apache Trail".
So, here we have a few connections to consider first.
Where/what was the suggested source of the stones use to make the maps (suggested by DA)?
Why was this club meeting in Masonic Temple?
He lecture at Masonic Temple.
He was a member of many groups, including the Dons.
He traveled to many of the places involved in this story.
He was trusted and respected.
He was a novice artist and married to a successful artist.
If you can keep an open mind, there might be enough to keep you reading.
This is just the beginning.
About the many artistic influences in his life.
One of the most influential was his first wife.
The artist Emma May Scofield, an award winning sculptor and painter.
View attachment 813514
Yellow Sky - Gold Medal 1915
View attachment 813515
View attachment 813516
He has many, many connections to the stones.
They are circumstantial connections, yes, but there are so many they can not be ignored.
IMO- It would be a mistake to remove Odd from the list of "possible suspects".
From the AZ Republic "Work At Ruins Is Reviewed"
"Odd Halseth, city archaeologist, yesterday outlined some of the work done at Pueblo Grand Museum....
.. at the weekly luncheon meeting of the Phoenix ___ Club in Masonic Temple.
... The club made plans for a trip Friday, Saturday and Sunday over the Tonto National Forest with F. Lee Kirby, forest supervisor. The groups itinerary will include Ashdale, Bloody Basin, Cord_s, Camp Verde, Fossil Creek, Pine, Tonto Natural Bridge, a trip over the service control road under the Mogollon Rim, Payson, Young...Roosevelt Dam and return via the Apache Trail".
So, here we have a few connections to consider first.
Where/what was the suggested source of the stones use to make the maps (suggested by DA)?
Why was this club meeting in Masonic Temple?
He lecture at Masonic Temple.
He was a member of many groups, including the Dons.
He traveled to many of the places involved in this story.
He was trusted and respected.
He was a novice artist and married to a successful artist.
If you can keep an open mind, there might be enough to keep you reading.
This is just the beginning.
About the many artistic influences in his life.
One of the most influential was his first wife.
The artist Emma May Scofield, an award winning sculptor and painter.
View attachment 813514
Yellow Sky - Gold Medal 1915
View attachment 813515
View attachment 813516
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sgtfda
Bronze Member
Career suicide for a archaeologist to fake anything of this nature or to be associated with it.
Hal Croves
Silver Member
He did things his way.
But I thought that you might find this amusing.
View attachment 813623
It is a coincidence, but it makes one wonder if Odd made any early trips to Tucson.
Now that would have been career suicide.
sgtfda
Bronze Member
Many Masonic lodge buildings in cities have a large concert type hall. They are also used for public events in the communities. I recall going to a Andy Williams concert at ours.
somehiker
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Hal:
Quite an impressive resume for anyone, let alone someone who remained silent the whole time the stones were in the news.
He likely had many chances to come clean prior to his death in 1966. Perhaps he wasn't the man that people thought he was.
But keep plugging away at your solution. It's as much, or more, than anyone else has been able to dig up for their alternates to Travis Tumlinson.
Regards:SH.
Quite an impressive resume for anyone, let alone someone who remained silent the whole time the stones were in the news.
He likely had many chances to come clean prior to his death in 1966. Perhaps he wasn't the man that people thought he was.
But keep plugging away at your solution. It's as much, or more, than anyone else has been able to dig up for their alternates to Travis Tumlinson.
Regards:SH.
Hal,
Are you saying that this is the same Odd Halseth that was the archaeologist?
Garry
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Joe
I didn't ask you if you are thinking with your heart . I ask you " What says your heart ? " that mean : What you feel ? I have been or not ?
For sure you are thinking with your brain , but take a time out , don't thinking very much .
Marius
Marius,
OK......Right now my heart is saying nothing. When you tell me how many times you have been in the range, my mind will digest the information and tell my heart what to think or feel. If I knew you personally, the process would probably be reversed.
Take care,
Joe
cactusjumper
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mary333
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Hello Hal,
Given the information that Humper and Sarge have provided there seems to be another candidate for the creator of the stone maps. If you look at what Kollenburn says in his 2009 Chronicles:
"Still other stories exist as to the origin of these notorious stone maps. Fifty years ago it was rumored that a cowboy who lived along Queen Creek carved the stone maps and buried them near Black Point to confuse treasure hunters. This old cowboy did a lot of stone work for Clemans Cattle Company at the old Upper Fraser Ranch known today as the Reavis Ranch. The story is that this old man was a stone engraver at a cemetery back East and gave up the job to become a cowboy in the West".
Now look at the statements of Humper and Sarge. While Kollenburn seems to hide the identity of the creator a bit there is enough the same in the accounts that if someone knows this individual paydirt may have been hit. Notice specifically the use of the term tombstone engraver and stone engraver/cemetary. That is probably a slip that points to the creator. Seems Kollenburn has known the creator of the maps for a good long time.
Maybe Humper and Sarge have given us the creator without having to come out from under their rock.
Mary
Hello Hal,
I checked Grannie`s papers and the phrase meant something else. Just a place in the Superstitions.
Sarge,
You just keep getting deeper and deeper. Why not just do the right thing and tell the truth. in 2009 Tom K. in the Kollenburn Chronicles writes 2 specific articles addressing the Stone Maps. In neither article does he suggest what you and Humper says is the truth instead he just runs through a list of possible creators of the maps and concludes:
"As you can see this is just another explanation for the infamous and notorious Peralta Stone Maps. The stone maps have created as many enemies as they have friends. The Peralta Stone Maps will survive as long as there are those who follow in the “Footsteps of Coronado’s Children.”
Now comes along the two amigos and what do you two tell us.
Originally Posted by sgtfda
Had to go to the Apache Junction fruit market today so I decided to meet up with Tom K at the Blue Bird. By the way they have a set of the stones on display in the front window. Copies just like the museum. God everyone has them. Tom told me a acquaintance made the stones in the 30's and placed them in the FJ spot. I asked why there and he said the guy was working in the area. This person also worked as a tombstone engraver. Which explains a lot. I wanted to ask him about the Burns from Burns Ranch and the pitt mine. The stones came up after I noticed the window display. I will still keep a open mind as its fun to play with the issue.
Frank,
Tom told me this story some time ago. Not much chance he will ever divulge the name. I believe it to be true.
Take care,
Joe
Sarge the problem is Mr. K`s concluding sentence is true. Those maps will be maiming and killing folks," as long as there are those who follow in the “Footsteps of Coronado’s Children.”
It is one thing for people to die and be injured if knowledgeable people don`t know the truth but you do. So Sarge who is telling the truth you and Humper or Mr. K. My money is on you. That is why what`s going on is so dangerous. It is not just a lie it is a lie that is allowed to live and is being given credence by those who know better.
Mary
Given the information that Humper and Sarge have provided there seems to be another candidate for the creator of the stone maps. If you look at what Kollenburn says in his 2009 Chronicles:
"Still other stories exist as to the origin of these notorious stone maps. Fifty years ago it was rumored that a cowboy who lived along Queen Creek carved the stone maps and buried them near Black Point to confuse treasure hunters. This old cowboy did a lot of stone work for Clemans Cattle Company at the old Upper Fraser Ranch known today as the Reavis Ranch. The story is that this old man was a stone engraver at a cemetery back East and gave up the job to become a cowboy in the West".
Now look at the statements of Humper and Sarge. While Kollenburn seems to hide the identity of the creator a bit there is enough the same in the accounts that if someone knows this individual paydirt may have been hit. Notice specifically the use of the term tombstone engraver and stone engraver/cemetary. That is probably a slip that points to the creator. Seems Kollenburn has known the creator of the maps for a good long time.
Maybe Humper and Sarge have given us the creator without having to come out from under their rock.
Mary
Hello Hal,
I checked Grannie`s papers and the phrase meant something else. Just a place in the Superstitions.
Sarge,
You just keep getting deeper and deeper. Why not just do the right thing and tell the truth. in 2009 Tom K. in the Kollenburn Chronicles writes 2 specific articles addressing the Stone Maps. In neither article does he suggest what you and Humper says is the truth instead he just runs through a list of possible creators of the maps and concludes:
"As you can see this is just another explanation for the infamous and notorious Peralta Stone Maps. The stone maps have created as many enemies as they have friends. The Peralta Stone Maps will survive as long as there are those who follow in the “Footsteps of Coronado’s Children.”
Now comes along the two amigos and what do you two tell us.
Originally Posted by sgtfda
Had to go to the Apache Junction fruit market today so I decided to meet up with Tom K at the Blue Bird. By the way they have a set of the stones on display in the front window. Copies just like the museum. God everyone has them. Tom told me a acquaintance made the stones in the 30's and placed them in the FJ spot. I asked why there and he said the guy was working in the area. This person also worked as a tombstone engraver. Which explains a lot. I wanted to ask him about the Burns from Burns Ranch and the pitt mine. The stones came up after I noticed the window display. I will still keep a open mind as its fun to play with the issue.
Frank,
Tom told me this story some time ago. Not much chance he will ever divulge the name. I believe it to be true.
Take care,
Joe
Sarge the problem is Mr. K`s concluding sentence is true. Those maps will be maiming and killing folks," as long as there are those who follow in the “Footsteps of Coronado’s Children.”
It is one thing for people to die and be injured if knowledgeable people don`t know the truth but you do. So Sarge who is telling the truth you and Humper or Mr. K. My money is on you. That is why what`s going on is so dangerous. It is not just a lie it is a lie that is allowed to live and is being given credence by those who know better.
Mary
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sgtfda
Bronze Member
Mary is this why your parents kept repeating the odd word? Was it a surprise for them the first time you wore the pink dress?
cactusjumper
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mary333
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The Creator
Hello Hal
just some additional thoughts. If the identity of this person can be ascertained this may lead to places and people that could open a whole new perspective on this issue. First what is his name, next who did he know. And where did he get the knowledge to pull this off. Maybe he knew the person that is your prime suspect. Could be a whole new fascinating avenue of research. Also as it appears, the identity of this person has been known for years by a number of people why has it been kept quiet? Is it as simple as economics 101. Keep a mystery going so you can reap the economic benefit of writing about it and having people from all over the world visit and talk about Arizona? Fascinating.
And what the hey a few people get killed looking for the end of the Stone Map Trail just the cost of doing business.
Humper you and Sarge remind me of the old adage, "loose lips sinks ships". In this case this ship should have been sunk a long time ago. The right thing may have been done because of you. You should enjoy the well deserved spot light for your fine efforts. I have to hand it to Humper though I would be more than a little upset knowing that I circled Boulder Canyon needlessly for 40 years when someone could have just taken me aside and said look Joe here is the truth. That is it Joe, you realize you too were caught up in this scam and the last thing you want to do is admit it.
Mary
Hello Hal
just some additional thoughts. If the identity of this person can be ascertained this may lead to places and people that could open a whole new perspective on this issue. First what is his name, next who did he know. And where did he get the knowledge to pull this off. Maybe he knew the person that is your prime suspect. Could be a whole new fascinating avenue of research. Also as it appears, the identity of this person has been known for years by a number of people why has it been kept quiet? Is it as simple as economics 101. Keep a mystery going so you can reap the economic benefit of writing about it and having people from all over the world visit and talk about Arizona? Fascinating.
And what the hey a few people get killed looking for the end of the Stone Map Trail just the cost of doing business.
Humper you and Sarge remind me of the old adage, "loose lips sinks ships". In this case this ship should have been sunk a long time ago. The right thing may have been done because of you. You should enjoy the well deserved spot light for your fine efforts. I have to hand it to Humper though I would be more than a little upset knowing that I circled Boulder Canyon needlessly for 40 years when someone could have just taken me aside and said look Joe here is the truth. That is it Joe, you realize you too were caught up in this scam and the last thing you want to do is admit it.
Mary
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Hal Croves
Silver Member
Gary,
Yes. It was the same man. If you are asking about the article... not the Tucson artifacts. The fact that he had the Titan Battery account I simply found funny after learning about the Tucson artifacts. I see it as a coincidence and nothing more... for now, but I have not researched the artifacts.
Yes, Odd studied electrical systems in Norway and German. In fact, he had planned to work with machines (avoiding people), but life threw him a curve ball and when he returned from the war, he found himself compelled to study man/people. In my mind, the mans efforts were nearly lost to time. Like many of the Dons, Odd was an exceptional person.
But how will I convince you? What should I write? That his father was an important educator and inspector of schools who, when a child, took Odd on trips to Egypt & Greece? That as a child, Odd was familiar with the many archeological sites and rock carvings that pepper the coast of Norway? That his family was friends with Norway's King and royal family? That he served in the Signal Co, and may have worked in a classified aerial reconnaissance program during WW1? That he could fly a plane? That he had access to the restricted aerial photographs that were being taken in the Salt River Valley and surrounding area? That he was there when they found Ruth's skull? That he intimately knew the Superstitions, it legends, its archeological sites? That he was a member of the Phoenix artist community? That he lectured in ecclesiastical art? That he supported native arts and women in the arts? That he was responsible for the restoration of ZIA,... which is connected to one of the Peraltas?
It is a long list and if the stones were made using a map, well in my mind there is only one man who could have done it.
The stones are a masterpiece, a work of art (debatable), and a time capsule.
I believe there are something like the 250+ recordings Odd left behind.
He was the "Indian's Banker".
At some point the conversation must focus on his connection to the DONS. Can that be done respectfully and without pointing fingers? I honestly doubt that they (as a group) knew about Odd's stone maps... if they are his. Odd was ill when the story broke in Life... I believe it was aggravated by the malaria he contracted in Africa. It bothered him until he reach Phoenix.
Odd died in 1966 and was ill for the last few years of his life. He would have read about the stones being discovered.
Just remember what was happening in the world just prior to the stones being discovered. It was madness and the whole world was on fire. Odds son was even shot down over Europe and taken captive as a prisoner of war. Another hero... which seems to be a trait of the Halseths. Odd's parents both died in 1944... it is not clear how, but that was not a good year to live in Norway. Especially for intellectuals.
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Hal,
I confuse easily. I was unaware of Halseth's backgound in anything other that that of archaeology. I'm back on track. Thanks!
My focus is on absorbing the personal information you have gathered on Halseth. I would love to see the sources that you can share (links, books, etc). PM me if you don't want to post them in this thread.
Who was Julian Hayden?
Thanks in advance.
Garry
I confuse easily. I was unaware of Halseth's backgound in anything other that that of archaeology. I'm back on track. Thanks!
My focus is on absorbing the personal information you have gathered on Halseth. I would love to see the sources that you can share (links, books, etc). PM me if you don't want to post them in this thread.
Who was Julian Hayden?
Thanks in advance.
Garry
somehiker
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Garry:
I for one have to admit I knew little about Halseth's connection to the Superstitions, until I Googled "Odd Halseth/Superstition Mountains" the other day.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=Odd+...s=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a
Three of the first four links lead to your research collection.
Good show !
Regards:SH.
I for one have to admit I knew little about Halseth's connection to the Superstitions, until I Googled "Odd Halseth/Superstition Mountains" the other day.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=Odd+...s=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a
Three of the first four links lead to your research collection.
Good show !
Regards:SH.
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