The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

[Oroblanco]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

K BB, send me, or oro, a good sextant, accurate chronometer adj. to zero Greenwich, a hack watch, present tables, and a full pot of coffee for Oro and I, and I will plot your lat., Long., for you. Incidentally, which celestial body do you wish me to use?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Whoa, rein in your mules there a moment amigo, BB did say "out of sight of land" and that is a huge no-no for me. I am a land-lubber, don't mind getting onto the water at all, but not out of sight of land. Once you are out of sight of land, should your ship sink, which direction should you swim?

Sorry but I can't see how sea-going navigation skills (or lack thereof) has anything to do with Jacob Waltz and his gold mine. Are we saying that Waltz used a sextant to locate his mine? Or navigated by the stars to get back and forth? This line of theory just doesn't seem to match up with the known history of Waltz, or Weiser for that matter.

Signed "mystified"

 

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[Oroblanco]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Blindbowman wrote

old friend .. i see why you have so many question with a larger interest......



the mines history has nothing to do with Waltz or Weiser..until Waltz kills the Peralta ..

the legend may .. but whats that got to do with the origin of the mine .. ?

I am aware that you accept the murderous Waltz-Peralta legend, but I do not agree. Cold blooded murderers do not dip into their own
life savings to help out a friend in need. Can you name a serial killer who gave away a large chunk of his life savings to help out a friend in financial distress? You are aware that there is another version of how Waltz came to have his mine, which has no
Peraltas or Spaniards at all. I am about 98% convinced this alternate version may well be the truth, for I could not find any documentation to prove a Peralta presence in the Superstitions at all, unless you count Goldfield as the Superstitions. I have asked you before to show something to the contrary, to convince me that the Holmes version (using that term loosely) with Waltz as a cold blooded killer, the great Peralta massacre etc but got no solid evidence. So I remain very unconvinced of Waltz the killer, of Peralta legends etc for sometimes the simplest explanation is the truth. To me, it makes very little difference since the gold mine itself is what I would be looking for, not legends nor to prove a theory. Clearly to some people however a story without all the romantic elements but still with a tremendously rich lost gold mine are not enough.

I am keeping the door open to these theories and opposing views, but have little expectation that solid evidence is going to be shown to support it.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Blindbowman wrote

gold ore can be all the evidence a person needs ...lol

i dont have to try to convert you or change your mind .. if you wish to beleive something . thats up to you ..


i am not working on expedition 5 because i dont have evidence ,...lol its what i am willing to share and what i dont say that makes me want to rise the funding and go back one last time . with all the gear i need to get the job done the right way ...the search is over for me ..

i have prove waltz killed the peralta i have prove the mine is there .. i have prove it is in fact waltz's mine .. is there anything in it .. i am going to find out ....the question is will i ever trust anyone in my life again after being dutchhunter .. when i drive out of AZ and cross that state line .. i will never look back ...and you will never see me or hear a word from me the rest of your life if i have may way ...

i dont care if its real or not .. o dont care if its the biggest damn gold vane on earth .. it dose not have anything to do with why i want to prove its real .. the gold is worthless to me ,....

how much can one old man pack out any way ...lol

a few samples is all i need to test and see if i was correct or not .. what happens after that i could care less ...

but if your wanting for me to convence you of anything , then your going to have a long wait .. sorry but true ... i am not trying to collect evidence to convence anyone of anything .. other then my self ...

Well, good for you then, good luck and good hunting to you; I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Actually I think I will drop out of these discussions of the Peralta stones, interesting theories and all that but.....? There are other treasure topics, including some on the lost gold mine of Jacob Waltz. Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco


<- these are for you folks, wish I could be handing the hot cups to you over the campfire but til then the imaginary sort will have to substitute.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Snifffffffffffff

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Blindbowman wrote

so Roy are you saying you dont think waltz's gold mine ever had anything to do with the stones ..

Correct.

BB also wrote

yet i have stood before you for so long and out right claim to have found the mine and have out right at times stated the stones are not fakes .. yet you would still make the choice to give them the respect the earn .. i under stand the over sight , yes they are complex and the code is next to a crazy mans drunking weekend but they are real take it from someone that dose know how to translate them correctly...

its up to you but you wont get a step closer to the mine with out translating the stone ....

Waltz never used stone maps to get to and from his mine, neither will I.

BB also wrote

who am i to try to change your mind ...just because i found the mine dose not make me your teacher dose it ...

good luck ROY .. you were the only reason i was still here ...guess if you can walk away so can i....

Actually you haven't ever really tried to convince me by providing that proof you have mentioned many times, just arguments and theories. Some were interesting and may have actually bordered on some history, like the ball court for instance, but without solid evidence it is just that - theories. As for being my "teacher" there is much that you still need to learn. I am still learning, hopefully at least a little bit every day so don't take that as some kind of "insult" when it is just a matter of information gathering. I am flattered at your statement, but I am hardly the only person here that you talk with so surely this is a bit of an exaggeration.

I have no intention of continuing to beat the dead horse known popularly as the Peralta Stones. In the balances of evidence, there are four expert opinions saying they are modern frauds, and an admission by the daughter of Travis Tumlinson that her father made them. He very well may not have intended them to be used as a fraud, based on his other stone carvings with Spanish treasure themes, he just liked carving stones with those subjects. We do not have a single expert willing to put their name to say that those stone maps are genuine and it is just too much of a coincidence that Tumlinson just happened to also be making other carved stones. So for all the theories and evolutions of them, interesting though they may be, I am well past the tipping point of whether they are real or not. That is not an insult to anyone who does believe in them either, it really doesn't matter to me if they want to try to solve them and follow them to the pots full of gold, but I am not going to waste any more time on them.

If you would like to discuss the Lost Dutchman mine, Waltz, Holmes, Weiser or virtually any other treasure topic I would be happy to participate but I am done talking about these stones. Perhaps one of the threads on the Lost Dutchman ought to be resurrected, or a new one started? Maybe later on this evening when I have more time.
Roy

Don Jose de la Mancha wrote

Snifffffffffffff

Dad-burned allergies kicking up on you there amigo?

 

[EE THr]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Just to be saying it...I don't think the "Peralta Stones" are maps to the LDM, either.

That's why I didn't mention them in my other thread, on the public maps and legends, at all.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

BB, you posted --> ...they said i would go blind again before i am 60
***********

They told me that when I was a lil kiddie ?? Blushing.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[EE THr]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

I moved this post here, from another thread, because it seemed to be more appropriate here---


Some people think the misspellings are a code. Some think they are a blend of Portuguese and Spanish, and that at one time that blend was common among some people. Others think the maker of the Stones just goofed, and spelled phonetically.

Those who consider the second possibility, also feel that the blend would roughly determine the age of the Stones.

That brings it around to the question of whether the Stones are "real" or not. In other words, someone who wanted to make a really convincing fake, might intentionally either include errors, just so the wouldn't look "too good." Or, if the "blended" dialect was actually used by some, during a certain time period, a knowledgeable faker might use that to make the Stones more convincing.

The whole trouble with all of the above, is exactly what would "real" be? I mean, did anyone who is known to have possession of the Stones ever claim to know who made them or when? Or have all the attributions to the Peraltas, Jesuits, Templars, or whoever, all been made by other people who were merely speculating?

Even if someone along the Tumlinson line actually said by who, or when, they were made, the question would still be, "How did they know?"

So, there is really no way to say the Stones are "fakes," because there is nothing on the Stones which makes any claims as to who made them, where they were made, when they were made, or, most importantly, why they were made. All they say is, "Find the map, find the heart," and the other stuff.

So, the Stone Maps simply are what they are. They exist, and that's about all that is really known. And until something further is discovered, and shown to be corroborated with some kind of evidence, that's about all that can be known about them---just that they are what they are.

CJ did follow a monumented trail, which is shaped very similarly to the line of dots on the Trail Maps, and did find an anomaly there. That is about all that is known publically about the Stones, beyond that they exist, and what they look like.

Did I leave anything out?

My point being that it would need to be known what they are supposed to be, before they could be considered to be hoaxes, right? They could have been made by anyone, but as long as nobody knows what they are really supposed to be, then there is nothing for them to "not be," in order to be fakes.

So, they just are what they are.

And they are, after all, interesting.

 

[EE THr]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Ditto for this post---


My favorite line of thought, in trying to figure out if there is some kind of code on the Stones, and if they actually make any sense at all, is in considering the Stones as a communication, and rather than trying to figure out the message, try to figure out the recipient. Sort of reverse engineering the communication path.

What all would the intended recipient need to already know, in order to follow the map?

Which leads to: "Was the intended recipient just one person?---Or just a few people?---Or an entire organization or large family?"

The reason that "what knowledge would need to already be known," leads to the question of how many people are included as "recipient," is because it seems to me that the fewer the people that a code is intended for, the more unique that code could be. Because a large number of people being able to remember a complex unique code, would probably require that they write it down. But writing down a code, and having lots of copies, would increase the odds of it being found out.

The only way that a very complex and unique code could be known and remembered by a large number of people, without writing it down, would be if they routinely used the code, in everyday life.

There are organizations which do learn and remember certain symbols and meanings, and keep them secret. But it seems that many of these symbols have gradually become public knowledge, and none of these types which are public knowledge, seem to appear on the Stone Maps.

If the maps were directed to a large family, then what would be necessary for all the family members to already know about the maps, to enable them to follow them to whatever they might lead to?

This last one seems to be the most popular possibility, but the question of how the family members would know what all the stuff on those maps mean, has me stumped. I don't think that it's reasonable that an entire large family would remember so many factors of all those markings and their various meanings. In other words, I think it doesn't compute.

And if the maps were meant for only a couple of people, then why didn't the maker just show them, on a regular map, where the target site was located? Why all the complications and mystery?

So, of all the possible types of recipients---to me, none of them makes sense.

 

[starman 1]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

EE THR,

Great, great post.

Did you ever consider that the folks who created the trail maps did not know what they were doing, and the folks who created the horse/whatever map knew exactly what they were doing?

The trail maps were part of a system. The other was a scam.

 

[EE THr]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

starman---

I think that the Trail Maps and the Horse/Priest Stone appear to be very different in design, with the exception of the "A," or "D," on the dagger handle. The markings seem very different, as well as the stone material. Of course, there are known to be many copies, so it would need to be known for sure if one is looking at the originals or not, in order to judge the materials.

There are several possibilities as to the reason for the differences. Some have supposed that they were made at the same time, but of different rock. Others suggest that they were made at different times and in different places.

If the Horse/Priest Stone was the original, and the Trail Maps were added later as a diversion, then why would anyone make the Horse/Priest Stone public in the first place? But even the sequence of discovery has been questioned by some, which would allow for a theory that after the "original" stone had been made public, it was thought to be an error in judgement, so the Trail Maps were added into the mix as a confusion factor.

However, the Horse/Priest Stone, by itself, doesn't provide an exact location or path to the target "spots" on it, so it's hard for me to envision that it could be very useful, on it's own, to whoever was meant to see it, considering the expansive area which it shows.

The publically available information on these tablets is not enough, for me anyway, to imagine any type of conclusion about any of the possibilities, though.

 

[sgtfda]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

A heart itself can represent the nunber 5. Some of the symbols have masonic conections. I also wonder about that

 

[EE THr]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

sgtfda---

Which symbols do you relate to masonic meanings?

 

[sgtfda]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Heart with a knife pointing to it for one. You may say the knife is not pointing to the heart. The arrow off the guard is. You also have a pyramid here and there. The circle with the dot is also used for the all seeing eye.
I'm not saying that was the intent. It was something that caught my eye after Hal started talking about the Masons

 

[sgtfda]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

It should be noted the Order of the Odd Fellows use some of the same symbol's
Years ago i had to look into the origin of a human skeleton I found on display in a costume store. That was fun. This thing was even used in the Dawn of the Dead movie. Traced it back to the Odd Fellows who use skeletons in their degree work. A Mason who was also a Odd Fellow helped me out on that one. We went over some of this during that investigation

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Only need to look at the Mormon religion for Masonic similarities.

Joe

 

[starman 1]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

EE THR

The trail maps were created to reveal the location of a place in the Superstitions known in general by Coronado, and a number of ancient peoples, Aztecs, etc., The specifics of the location hides a number of different chambers within the site. Not all known by any specific group attracted there. Each had a different reason for their visits although all were grounded in a fundamental truth of the location. The location is in the NW portion of the range.

The priest, whatever was created from a topographical map and leads to sites in the eastern part of the range and to the south. The trail is a modern creation made to conceal and keep one away from the NW portion of the range. Just take the horse and look at a topographical map from 1908 of the Superstitions. It easy fairly easy to spot.

The folks who did this were also responsible for lifting the Tucson Artifacts and replacing them with exact forgeries that are now on display in Tucson. Not totally exact.

Also take the time to translate the Latin Heart. It speaks of a holy place in the NW portion of the range. It is written in a dialect that is from approximately 925 A.D.

The trail maps, the heart stone, and the latin heart are at the bottom of a lot of trouble.

 

[motell6]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Would like to post my 2 cents on this thread, IM thinking the stone with the 1847 etc. might just contain a chess game code. Which if true in my opinon would put this in the Jesuit court,and since I dont believe they were in the Superstits ,the stones would lead to a location outside of those mts. Anyone with knowledge of their paticular game of chess could unlock the codes. Chess games contain numbers ,letters and dots. A educated game in those days played by those with knowledge of how to code maps and locations.

 

[sgtfda]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

The removable heart could be a warning showing the penalty. The knife, heart, peak and eye. I can't go into it except with a brother. While on that train of thought the D on the knife handle may stand for death. Sounds like bull but it is a thought. It's not like anyone has ever been found in the superstitions with body parts missing.

 

[EE THr]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

sgtfda---

I understand that you can't go into it except with a brother. Since that subject has come into the discussion, why are the Masons secretive?