The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

[Gary M Herndon]

No permits are allowed for carts or other wheeled objects in Wilderness with the exception of a wheelchair use by a mobility-impaired person on existing trails. No permits or exceptions, just your wheelchair. There are no permits for cart use in wilderness issued.

You kind of stepped in it with your claim that you had a permit for a cart. This is a very big issue with hunters since they can hunt the wilderness but must pack out their kills and gear on their backs. There are many disabled hunters that have tried to get a permit for a cart and they have all be refused. If you had actually been granted a permit for a cart this would have become a national issue. Hunters take this issue very seriously.

________________________________________
Forest Service
Law, Regulation and Policy
for Wheelchair/Mobility Device Use
in Federally Designated Wilderness

(1) IN GENERAL – Congress reaffirms that nothing in the Wilderness Act prohibits wheelchair
use in a wilderness area by an individual whose disability requires its use. The Wilderness Act
requires no agency to provide any form of special treatment or accommodation (permits) or to construct
any facilities or modify any conditions of lands within a wilderness area to facilitate such use.

(2) Definition – for the purposes of paragraph (1), the term wheelchair means a device designed
solely for use by a mobility impaired person for locomotion, that is suitable for use in an
indoor pedestrian area.”
______________________________________
Forest Service Manual 2353.05

“Wheelchair or Mobility Device. A device, including one that is battery-powered, that is
designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion, and that is suitable for use
in an indoor pedestrian area. A person whose disability requires use of a wheelchair or mobility
device may use a wheelchair or mobility device that meets this definition anywhere foot travel is
allowed.”

Application: “Designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person” means that the original
design and manufacture of the device was only for the purpose of mobility by a person who has a
limitation on their ability to walk. A wheelchair or mobility device, even one that is a battery
powered, that meets this definition is allowed anywhere foot travel is allowed.

“Suitable for indoor pedestrian use” means the device would be allowed to be used inside a mall,
etc.

No permits are allowed for carts or other wheeled objects in Wilderness with the exception of a wheelchair use by a mobility-impaired person on existing trails. No permits or exceptions, just your wheelchair. There are no permits for cart use in wilderness issued.

You kind of stepped in it with your claim that you had a permit for a cart. This is a very big issue with hunters since they can hunt the wilderness but must pack out their kills and gear on their backs. There are many disabled hunters that have tried to get a permit for a cart and they have all be refused. If you had actually been granted a permit for a cart this would have become a national issue. Hunters take this issue very seriously.

________________________________________
Forest Service
Law, Regulation and Policy
for Wheelchair/Mobility Device Use
in Federally Designated Wilderness

(1) IN GENERAL – Congress reaffirms that nothing in the Wilderness Act prohibits wheelchair
use in a wilderness area by an individual whose disability requires its use. The Wilderness Act
requires no agency to provide any form of special treatment or accommodation (permits) or to construct
any facilities or modify any conditions of lands within a wilderness area to facilitate such use.

(2) Definition – for the purposes of paragraph (1), the term wheelchair means a device designed
solely for use by a mobility impaired person for locomotion, that is suitable for use in an
indoor pedestrian area.”
______________________________________
Forest Service Manual 2353.05

“Wheelchair or Mobility Device. A device, including one that is battery-powered, that is
designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion, and that is suitable for use
in an indoor pedestrian area. A person whose disability requires use of a wheelchair or mobility
device may use a wheelchair or mobility device that meets this definition anywhere foot travel is
allowed.”

Application: “Designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person” means that the original
design and manufacture of the device was only for the purpose of mobility by a person who has a
limitation on their ability to walk. A wheelchair or mobility device, even one that is a battery
powered, that meets this definition is allowed anywhere foot travel is allowed.

“Suitable for indoor pedestrian use” means the device would be allowed to be used inside a mall,
etc.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5280655.pdf

 

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[Clay Diggins]

According to Joe Meade, USFS National Access Program Manager, the Forest Service wants to leave some latitude for local managers to make decisions on a case-by-case basis, depending on environmental conditions. The Forest Service can issue special permits to authorize otherwise prohibited activities. A memo from Meade, dated August 9, 1991, illustrates the point:

32 years ago a guy named Joe wrote a memo that said it might be OK to permit a cart in wilderness but it never happened.

Do you need a bigger shovel Gary?

 

[Gary M Herndon]

According to Joe Meade, USFS National Access Program Manager, the Forest Service wants to leave some latitude for local managers to make decisions on a case-by-case basis, depending on environmental conditions. The Forest Service can issue special permits to authorize otherwise prohibited activities. A memo from Meade, dated August 9, 1991, illustrates the point:

NEXT!

 

[Clay Diggins]

NEXT!

What you offer here is a Rocky Mountain Region Special Order from 1996. In that Special Order it specifically states that the following people are exempt from the restrictions on carts in the wilderness in the Rocky Mountain Region for the duration of the Special Order:

"Persons with disabilities using assistive devices or aids, in
accordance with the Americans with Disabilities Act (PL 101-336)"

Well I guess that proves your point doesn't it? Or does it? There's that TLDR part about:

"in accordance with the Americans with Disabilities Act (PL 101-336"

So if you are a person with a disability "using assistive devices or aids" AND "in accordance with the Americans with Disabilities Act (PL 101-336)" (ADA) you are exempt and can have all the cart races you want in the wilderness - no permits or permission required.

So what's the big deal about being "in accordance" with the Disabilities Act? I guess we are just going to have to read that Disability Act to find out. After all the reason for a cart in wilderness is because you are disabled.

Lucky for us the Disability Act specifically explains what devices a disabled person can bring into the wilderness. I guess that's why the Special Order spells out the law involved so we can look up that specific device. Wasn't that nice of them? They could have just copied the specific device definition into the Special Order and avoided confusing you - and anyone else thinking it means something it doesn't - but heck that's what government is all about. Right?

So unlike the Regional Forester who signed that Special Order in 1996 I'm going to share with you the full text of what the Americans with Disabilities Act law actually has to say about the single exception carved out for disabled use of the wilderness:

________________________________________________
AMERICANS WITH DISABILITIES ACT
USC 12207
SEC. 507. FEDERAL WILDERNESS AREAS
(c) SPECIFIC WILDERNESS ACCESS.—
(1) Congress reaffirms that nothing in the
Wilderness Act is to be construed as prohibiting the use of a
wheelchair in a wilderness area by an individual whose disabil-
ity requires use of a wheelchair, and consistent with the Wilder-
ness Act no agency is required to provide any form of special
treatment or accommodation, or to construct any facilities or
modify any conditions of lands within a wilderness area in order
to facilitate such use.
(2) DEFINITION.—For purposes of paragraph (1), the term
"wheelchair" means a device designed solely for use by a mobil-
ity-impaired person for locomotion, that is suitable for use in an
indoor pedestrian area.
________________________________________________

Pretty harsh huh? Maybe they just meant a cart to push around would be the same thing as a wheelchair? Whoops! Here comes the Forest Service to explain how wrong that line of thought is.

From the Forest Service Manual 2353.05 Definitions:
“Designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person” means that the original
design and manufacture of the device was only for the purpose of mobility by a person who has a
limitation on their ability to walk.

So it doesn't even apply to disabled people with bad backs or people with no arms to carry their water bottle. It's not about disability it's about mobility - the ability of a living being to move itself. If you can't move yourself you are allowed to use a wheelchair.

A wheelchair - not a cart, wagon or pogo stick. Just a wheeled chair. Not your mining gear, buckets or dog just yourself. That's the law - not rules or regulations or Special Orders - the actual law..

Remember how I wrote it would be a big deal if a permit was ever given for a cart in wilderness? This whole Americans with Disabilities Act thing with the Wilderness exception has created a strange situation in American law. You see Congress when they wrote the Disability Act law didn't define the word "wheelchair" anywhere else in the law but in the wilderness exception - so the courts in literally hundreds (thousands?) of disability cases have ruled over and over for more than 30 years now that the definition for the word "wheelchair" as used in the Disability Act ONLY applies to wheelchairs actually being used to move disabled people in the wilderness.

And that is why the Forest Service won't be issuing any cart permits for wilderness - disabled or not. And that's why you won't get any support for the idea of expanding the use of wheelchairs in the wilderness to include carts. Probably billions in insurance settlements and court judgements rely on that definition of wheelchairs in the wilderness not changing. Nobody wants to rock that boat.

 

[dredgernaut]

thanks clay.. on point as always.... just to be clear, you can not use a wheel chair for buckets.. and second i do not know of many trails where a cart would even work.. the trails are not paved or flat or wide enough for a cart.. cart or not 8-5 gallon buckets full of rock are very heavy. like 200 maybe 300 lbs.. you guys pulled a heavy cart where horse dont want to go.. wow.. you should get a flying saucer permit next time. you can fly your buckets of out..

 

[Gary M Herndon]

What you offer here is a Rocky Mountain Region Special Order from 1996. In that Special Order it specifically states that the following people are exempt from the restrictions on carts in the wilderness in the Rocky Mountain Region for the duration of the Special Order:

"Persons with disabilities using assistive devices or aids, in
accordance with the Americans with Disabilities Act (PL 101-336)"

Well I guess that proves your point doesn't it? Or does it? There's that TLDR part about:

"in accordance with the Americans with Disabilities Act (PL 101-336"

So if you are a person with a disability "using assistive devices or aids" AND "in accordance with the Americans with Disabilities Act (PL 101-336)" (ADA) you are exempt and can have all the cart races you want in the wilderness - no permits or permission required.

So what's the big deal about being "in accordance" with the Disabilities Act? I guess we are just going to have to read that Disability Act to find out. After all the reason for a cart in wilderness is because you are disabled.

Lucky for us the Disability Act specifically explains what devices a disabled person can bring into the wilderness. I guess that's why the Special Order spells out the law involved so we can look up that specific device. Wasn't that nice of them? They could have just copied the specific device definition into the Special Order and avoided confusing you - and anyone else thinking it means something it doesn't - but heck that's what government is all about. Right?

So unlike the Regional Forester who signed that Special Order in 1996 I'm going to share with you the full text of what the Americans with Disabilities Act law actually has to say about the single exception carved out for disabled use of the wilderness:

________________________________________________
AMERICANS WITH DISABILITIES ACT
USC 12207
SEC. 507. FEDERAL WILDERNESS AREAS
(c) SPECIFIC WILDERNESS ACCESS.—
(1) Congress reaffirms that nothing in the
Wilderness Act is to be construed as prohibiting the use of a
wheelchair in a wilderness area by an individual whose disabil-
ity requires use of a wheelchair, and consistent with the Wilder-
ness Act no agency is required to provide any form of special
treatment or accommodation, or to construct any facilities or
modify any conditions of lands within a wilderness area in order
to facilitate such use.
(2) DEFINITION.—For purposes of paragraph (1), the term
"wheelchair" means a device designed solely for use by a mobil-
ity-impaired person for locomotion, that is suitable for use in an
indoor pedestrian area.
________________________________________________

Pretty harsh huh? Maybe they just meant a cart to push around would be the same thing as a wheelchair? Whoops! Here comes the Forest Service to explain how wrong that line of thought is.

From the Forest Service Manual 2353.05 Definitions:
“Designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person” means that the original
design and manufacture of the device was only for the purpose of mobility by a person who has a
limitation on their ability to walk.

So it doesn't even apply to disabled people with bad backs or people with no arms to carry their water bottle. It's not about disability it's about mobility - the ability of a living being to move itself. If you can't move yourself you are allowed to use a wheelchair.

A wheelchair - not a cart, wagon or pogo stick. Just a wheeled chair. Not your mining gear, buckets or dog just yourself. That's the law - not rules or regulations or Special Orders - the actual law..

Remember how I wrote it would be a big deal if a permit was ever given for a cart in wilderness? This whole Americans with Disabilities Act thing with the Wilderness exception has created a strange situation in American law. You see Congress when they wrote the Disability Act law didn't define the word "wheelchair" anywhere else in the law but in the wilderness exception - so the courts in literally hundreds (thousands?) of disability cases have ruled over and over for more than 30 years now that the definition for the word "wheelchair" as used in the Disability Act ONLY applies to wheelchairs actually being used to move disabled people in the wilderness.

And that is why the Forest Service won't be issuing any cart permits for wilderness - disabled or not. And that's why you won't get any support for the idea of expanding the use of wheelchairs in the wilderness to include carts. Probably billions in insurance settlements and court judgements rely on that definition of wheelchairs in the wilderness not changing. Nobody wants to rock that boat.

Well son you sound a little jealous, I still have my permit and I'll be using it again soon with my next trip near Phoenix AZ in the Winter. Good luck repeating everything you took the time to post and Junior the area of expertise is Knowing Who to talk to and Whom will take the time to go through all the procedures to help Fully Disabled persons get where they need to go without restricting access. Do have a NICE Day lol

 

[markmar]

Seems the place where the stone maps were made for, moved close to the First Water trailhead in regards to be easily approached by the tourists.

 

[Clay Diggins]

thanks clay.. on point as always.... just to be clear, you can not use a wheel chair for buckets.. and second i do not know of many trails where a cart would even work.. the trails are not paved or flat or wide enough for a cart.. cart or not 8-5 gallon buckets full of rock are very heavy. like 200 maybe 300 lbs.. you guys pulled a heavy cart where horse dont want to go.. wow.. you should get a flying saucer permit next time. you can fly your buckets of out..

A full 5 gallon bucket of rock is about 55 pounds. It's a pretty standard measurement in prospecting.

Let's see ... 55 pounds X 8 buckets = 440 pounds. More than 5 cubic feet. In a cart. In the wilderness.

 

[markmar]

A full 5 gallon bucket of rock is about 55 pounds. It's a pretty standard measurement in prospecting.

Let's see ... 55 pounds X 8 buckets = 440 pounds. More than 5 cubic feet. In a cart. In the wilderness.

And dragged by three disabled men.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Cart Path

 

[markmar]

View attachment 2084312
Cart Path

Are you working close to this landscape?

 

[Clay Diggins]

I live here.

 

[dredgernaut]

Well son you sound a little jealous, I still have my permit and I'll be using it again soon with my next trip near Phoenix AZ in the Winter. Good luck repeating everything you took the time to post and Junior the area of expertise is Knowing Who to talk to and Whom will take the time to go through all the procedures to help Fully Disabled persons get where they need to go without restricting access. Do have a NICE Day lol

us, I still have my permit and I'll be using it again soon with my next trip near Phoenix AZ in the Winter.

so now your saying your permit from 2017 is still valid. never seen that before. all permits expire and require a refiling. amazing anyways. your 1 and only trip in 2017, you had 3 disabled guys, a cart with several hundred pounds in it, off trail. you got the permit for a cart to carry your buckets of material out. which is a very large sample.. from an area with the protected wilderness status. and in 2 days your disabled crew walked in and out , found the dutchman, and ran out of supplies .. all in 2 days.. and now you need a sponsor to buy you your first real trip out..
its getting pretty deep around here....
I'm calling this a fabrication... your unverifiable stories don't even kind of make sense..
black out pertinent info on your cart permit and show a picture of it..
show 1 picture of you in the superstitions.
show 1 picture of the 9 ounces of gold you recovered from the dutchman.
i went and read all your posts under your old screen name.. no proof anywhere. and in 2017 you said you have never been to the superstitions.
so what's up.. lots of nonsense id say....... just sayin...

 

[Clay Diggins]

Looks like the non existent forever cart permit is getting more expensive.

The Forest Service is now going to charge you to process a permit whether it's granted or not. They are also going to require insurance for your activity and are requiring strict liability.

Federal Register :: Request Access

 

[dredgernaut]

lol.. going to have to file a plan of operation, pay a reclamation bond, have a reclamation plan in place., and file several notice of intent to hold documents.. lmao...

 

[Clay Diggins]

Let's not make this into a beat up on Gary thread.

Gary has been very civilized and patient in expressing his beliefs. You've got to give him credit for that. I may disagree with his point of view or ideas but Gary's ideas are not particularly wacky or unreal compared to some of the beliefs expressed here.

Lets practice some tolerance for other's views. Nothing wrong with challenging Gary or anyone on their views but once the questions have been answered it's probably time to move on. It's pretty clear Gary is sticking to his story so why beat a dead horse?

We aren't cops or courts just seekers after our own truth.

 

[markmar]

As I have wrote, from my research I found out how the trail depicted on the stone tablets, is about 580 feet long. So, the distances between the lugares are from 32 feet to 40 feet in some cases. The trail is going from west to east and it's somewhere high on a mountainside. The dagger depicted on the map , shows the direction of the trail that someone has to follow. Of course someone can to do it and in reverse if knows where the end of the trail is.
Today, I want to show you the altitude average between the starting point and the end of the trail. I marked on the Trail map the altitude average in feet, from lugar to lugar, beginning from the starting point as 0(zero) altitude.
I made also a diagram of the trail's altitude average with approximation, just to let you know how it would looked in regards to a horizon certain (zero) level point.
Enjoy

 

[Gary M Herndon]

Basically, what it boils down to is I have a Permit for a Cart, (Which was Approved in DC by the Department of the Interior), for Expedition(s) to locate and Document the LDM, 2 Disabled Desert Storm Veterans, I'm Disabled, 3 other Team Members and WE are out in the field on occasions with a Cart, not a wheelchair, nothing motorized ..... And you all are B*tchin for no reason other than to suit your needs to belittle others on this site. The Cart in question was designed and built by Sebastian Copeland and he in turn gave me the designs and made an affidavits for the Expedition(s) while using the Cart, with various tire tread designs not to leave permanent tracks. ... Whoever wrote : "Seems the place where the stone maps were made for, moved close to the First Water trailhead in regards to be easily approached by the turists". **First off the area where the stone maps were made for is NOWHERE NEAR THE FIRST WATER TRAILHEAD. .... NEXT!

 

[markmar]

Basically, what it boils down to is I have a Permit for a Cart, (Which was Approved in DC by the Department of the Interior), for Expedition(s) to locate and Document the LDM, 2 Disabled Desert Storm Veterans, I'm Disabled, 3 other Team Members and WE are out in the field on occasions with a Cart, not a wheelchair, nothing motorized ..... And you all are B*tchin for no reason other than to suit your needs to belittle others on this site. The Cart in question was designed and built by Sebastian Copeland and he in turn gave me the designs and made an affidavits for the Expedition(s) while using the Cart, with various tire tread designs not to leave permanent tracks. ... Whoever wrote : "Seems the place where the stone maps were made for, moved close to the First Water trailhead in regards to be easily approached by the turists". **First off the area where the stone maps were made for is NOWHERE NEAR THE FIRST WATER TRAILHEAD. .... NEXT!

IMHO, only a flying carpet could take you to the stone maps spot. I wrote "close to First Water trailhead " as a random example of where a cart could be used. I don't think it's possible someone to drag a cart more than a half mile from any trailhead , on any trail.

 

[dredgernaut]

whatever gary.. keep believing it buddy, no one else does.. lol..