The Lost Dutchman and Peralta's tales are fiction, the my

[Oroblanco]

Guys some very nice work on the history!

Roy,

You wrote: The 1867 territorial census has Jacob WALS (probably a misspelling) listed as a farmer living in Phoenix, which page for some reason would not allow me to copy and post. However if you go to Ancestry dot com and do a search on the 1867 AZ territorial census you will find it.

I tried to duplicate your search on Jacob WALS and I can't find him in the 1867 Territorial census. I always thought Phoenix wasn't named until Duppa in 1870? Any help in clearing up my confusion will be apprecated.

Thanks, Garry

I just took a look and could not find it again myself. I could be in error.

According to the city of Phoenix history online site, the post office was established in 1868 with Jack Swilling as postmaster of the city of Phoenix.

On the Adams/Bichard saga, really if you look at the 1870 census, it looks like Adams owns the place and Bichard, Walbridge and the other "helper" are working for him.

Side thing Amie White and William BUCHARD residents of Pima Villages 1867 census page 261, entries #1634 and 1635 on Ancestry dot com, this link probably won't work
https://www.ancestry.com/interactiv...rue&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=43143_542691-00260

Buchard is probably a misspelling of Bichard. But if William had founded the mill in Adamsville in 1865, why is he listed as living in the Pima villages in 1867? Perhaps Adamsville was simply included in the Pima villages for that census?

The previous year another census was done, 1866, and
A. White is listed as living in the Pima villages in the 1866 census, no Bichard however <page 95 on Ancestry dot com, Arizona Territorial Census records 1864-1882> so it appears that Bichard was not living there, maybe he was busy in Adamsville?

I will keep looking, sorry if I made a mistake there.

 

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[Oroblanco]

OK, Looks like the attachments are all there...wanted to hit "post" before it timed out and I had to log in again and have to re-do it all...

Waltz, or "Walls" on 1867 census: I used to argue Waltz was in Phoenix in 1867 based on that document and also that I believed he was in the Swilling party that arrived there that year (no proof but it just makes too much sense with what was going on with the ditches). I still believe it is him, but am unsure enough at this point to put it back into the "unverified" category...that being said, it would be a heck of a coincidence if it WASN'T him! I believe this mystery of when Waltz got to Phoenix might be addressed and decisively settled very soon so I'm waiting for that...

I want to re-iterate that I'm being very conservative with my dates of Waltz being "missing" 1866-1870, using only verifiable records...but a verification of that 1867 census would be a biggie...I do know Waltz was there prior to 1870 because on that year's tax rolls, he's already fairly well established with workers and buildings...so it LOOKS to me like he was there prior to 1870...but I can't prove it!

Back to the Adamsville thing: I have no proof, but I think Adams intended to PROVE UP his homestead claim at Adamsville in 1870...I think that's why he temporarily moved his family there (as shown by the census) and re-opened his saloon there. He sent his family back to SF that same year and he seems to have once again abandoned the saloon, moving to Prescott...anyway, IF this is the case, and I'm saying IF because it's obvious speculation...it would mean Adams initially got there and claimed that land in 1865(if he was trying to PROVE UP in 1870).

Unfortunately, there is no homestead record or land entry for Adams in AZ (that I've been able to find). They say the digitization of AZ homestead records is complete, but as of now I haven't found one for Adams. It might be there somewhere, but I haven't found it. One of many possible explanations is that he was never issued a patent, for whatever reason...same thing happened to George Riley Roberts, I recall, as it was issued after he died to the person who legally held the rights to the land...same thing could have happened here, as Adams died in NOV of 1871 and the patent (or patents) could have been issued afterwards in someone else's name.



An EXCELLENT point!!! and one that had never occurred to me! I do know that there are records indicating Adamsville grain was being carried by wagon for milling at Casa Blanca prior to 1869...so I was working the angle of Adams maybe having a little donkey mill...but as you point out, he may have just needed to go pick up his flour the next morning at someone else's mill...very good point!!!

EDIT: Forgot to add...I remember you were guiding/helping me with trying to get to the bottom of Waltz's 1868 homestead claim, on the "other channel" last year...as far as I know, it still stands as it was then...people claimed to have seen it and it was listed in several books...but nobody to date has actually gotten a copy of it. Thomas is adamant that Waltz was simply unable to file a legal homestead claim on school land, and I have to agree from everything I've seen, he is right about that...Waltz would have had possessory rights, but that's about it. I suspect there will be more to come on this in the near future.

I keep forgetting to mention this but Matthew Roberts is a member here and had a thread on the Waltz homestead claim, included a map. He stated that he saw the homestead entry document, if memory serves, and I could be wrong but think he said it is in Florence? Corrections welcome, but anyway perhaps it might help to contact him as he might have a copy?

I don't know whether Waltz could have legally filed on the state land or not, but having seen how mining claims are done it is highly possible that he could have filed his claim on land that was not open to claim, either out of ignorance or some other reason. If they ran the office for homesteads the way the BLM runs mining claims, you could file a claim on the Moon and they will sure take your money and file your documents. It doesn't make the claim valid however, I just doubt that there was anyone enforcing the rules about the state lands at that moment in time.

Please do continue,

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I just took a look and could not find it again myself. I could be in error.

According to the city of Phoenix history online site, the post office was established in 1868 with Jack Swilling as postmaster of the city of Phoenix.

On the Adams/Bichard saga, really if you look at the 1870 census, it looks like Adams owns the place and Bichard, Walbridge and the other "helper" are working for him.

Side thing Amie White and William BUCHARD residents of Pima Villages 1867 census page 261, entries #1634 and 1635 on Ancestry dot com, this link probably won't work
https://www.ancestry.com/interactiv...rue&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=43143_542691-00260

Buchard is probably a misspelling of Bichard. But if William had founded the mill in Adamsville in 1865, why is he listed as living in the Pima villages in 1867? Perhaps Adamsville was simply included in the Pima villages for that census?

The previous year another census was done, 1866, and
A. White is listed as living in the Pima villages in the 1866 census, no Bichard however <page 95 on Ancestry dot com, Arizona Territorial Census records 1864-1882> so it appears that Bichard was not living there, maybe he was busy in Adamsville?

I will keep looking, sorry if I made a mistake there.

Roy, I hope you can find it! A few years back when I was doing my research on Swilling, I read somewhere that Swilling and party were captured on the 1867 census at what was then Mill City, or simply "Salt River" (prior to Phoenix proper being settled, surveyed, or being named). I believed Waltz was living over at Swilling's prior to squatting on T1N R3E, Section 16 next to the Starrars. I thought maybe that particular census had not yet been digitized, because I could never find it despite searching everywhere I could think of online. If ANYONE can find a copy of that census, I sure would like to page through it!!

Regarding the White/Bichard/Adams saga, there is a LOT to that story...it will take a long post just to scratch the surface...I tried to make it as short as I could, and will post it.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

There is much more to the White/Adams/Bichard story than one would think would be possible when dealing with a few dirt-road stores and a mill…they were all jockeying for Indian grain: Leading up to the Civil War, it was critical to have that grain for whichever side was going to control the area, as they needed it to feed their troops. After the war, it was about getting “exclusive rights” and profit, and post-war hatreds between Southerners and Northerners. It’s a very long story, a book could be written about it, but here is a condensed version of what was going on:

In 1860, Ammi White and Ebenezer Noyes managed to get possession of exclusive rights to purchase Indian grain (7,921 acres cultivated in 1860!) at the Pima Villages. The previous holder was sent packing because the civil war was looming, and he wasn’t trusted…the process was ugly, but White came out on top and was appointed as a “Unionist Indian Agent” and was asked to keep tabs on the “Secessioners” in the territory. The Union placed its faith in White that all that grain would be available to the Union and denied to the CSA. It was considered a strategic resource by both sides. After the war broke out, troops from California and Texas were converging on Arizona as both sides wanted to control the area. The mill became very important as the troops coming from CA were relying on resupplying and subsisting with Pima flour.

I have posted before about CSA troops under Hunter taking the mill, and taking White to Mesilla as a POW, so I won’t go into it again. Hunter managed to cut off the approaching Union troops and take possession of 150,000 lbs of wheat, that White had purchased from the Pima for the CA troops that were enroute. Hunter also commenced destroying hay that been pre-positioned at several places along the Butterfield route for Union mounts, so he had forces moving west towards the advancing US troops. Once the CSA troops made contact with the US troops at Stanwix, they withdrew, fighting a few skirmishes, but the job of destroying the hay and taking the grain had been completed. The US did recover most of the grain afterwards.

After White was traded for CSA prisoners and paroled in 1862, his mill continued producing flour for the Union through the end of the Civil War. Carleton directed White to buy up all the grain the Indians could produce and to try to get them to produce more during this timeframe. It was touch and go, with Carleton being forced to frequently put his troops on half-rations.

Right after the end of the war, another politically-connected guy came on the scene named Levi Ruggles. He wanted to take White’s place as “Indian Agent” and have exclusive rights to purchase Indian grain. The holder of these rights could effectively control the price of flour in the territory, by controlling the majority of the grain that produced it. Not to mention the lucrative Army contracts that grain supplied. Meanwhile, William Bichard was also trying to get in on the action. He allied himself with White. Adams also was allied with White against Ruggles, and the idea of Adamsville as an Anglo/Mexican farm alternative to the Pima farms was created, in the event they could no longer get exclusive access to Indian grain.

1866 was a crucial year, and it looked like it was going to be winner take all. White, Bichard and Adams commenced building Adamsville, while Ruggles commenced building his own farming headquarters (Florence). White understood he was losing the political battle and Ruggles would probably be getting appointed agent. I believe this is what prompted White to sell out to Bichard…he wasn’t in need of the money, he just understood he would soon lose access to the Indian grain, so there was no point in keeping the mill. Ruggles did manage to get appointed Pima agent in 1866, replacing White.

With White out of the picture by early 1867, Bichard had to work with Ruggles in order to supply the mill he had purchased. At the same time he was trying to get all the grain he could from the rapidly growing Anglo/Mexican farms at Adamsville. When the Casa Blanca mill was destroyed by a flood in 1868, it was taken to Adamsville and rebuilt so as to be closer to the Adamsville farms. At the same time, Ruggles was doing the exact same thing in Florence.

Bichard remained at the store in Casa Blanca, frequently travelling back and forth to family headquarters in San Francisco. His brother Stephen operated the store at Adamsville. The mills were frequently upgraded so as to produce more and more flour, and they needed more and more grain.

The competition between Adamsville and Florence soon spelled trouble for the Pimas. The two Anglo settlements with all their farms were upstream, and they were using up all the water. Also, the farms were encroaching on Pima land. So it was a big mess.

William and Stephen Bichard died in 1873 and 1876 respectively, after which the remaining Bichards seem to have just stayed in CA and let the AZ businesses decline. Adamsville was quickly overtaken by Florence, and became a ghost town by the early 1900’s.

In the end, it was control of Indian grain that was the motivator for all these people. When Ruggles came on the scene, politically connected and vying for White’s job as agent, and the exclusive rights to trade with the Pimas for grain, a couple of things happened:

1. White worked with Adams to create non-Indian farms at Adamsville, in the event he lost the rights to buy Pima grain.
2. Ruggles did the same thing at Florence, as he didn’t want to lose his competitive edge and have to go to them for any Anglo grain produced.
3. White realized he would lose the battle to remain Indian agent, so he threw in his cards, selling out to Bichard and leaving Bichard and Adams to deal with Ruggles on their own.
4. The competition between Adamsville (Bichard/Adams) and Florence (Ruggles) created an environment where the rapidly expanding Anglo farms soon overtook the Pima farms in production. They also used up all the water. These two things led to a significant decrease in the demand for Pima grain, and at the same time the ability for the Pimas to get water. So basically the bottom fell out of the market for the Pimas. No demand for their grain, no water to grow it with anyway. All the while, farms and mills around Tucson were growing rapidly, and then the SRV was being farmed. The Pima acreage was small compared to all that and became unimportant.

It was these events that drove the timeline of when the Bichards purchased White’s mill, and when/why Adamsville and Florence were settled. None of it happened in a vacuum. The bottom line is it all happened in 1866. It was also what prompted McCormick to rename Adamsville to “Sanford”. If anyone was wondering how in the world a mere farmer/saloon owner like Adams could have made a political enemy out of the Governor, these events are partly to blame. The Civil War and the political animosity/competition afterwards drove a lot of people to pick sides in AZ for a long, long time.

 

[markmar]

I keep forgetting to mention this but Matthew Roberts is a member here and had a thread on the Waltz homestead claim, included a map. He stated that he saw the homestead entry document, if memory serves, and I could be wrong but think he said it is in Florence? Corrections welcome, but anyway perhaps it might help to contact him as he might have a copy?

I don't know whether Waltz could have legally filed on the state land or not, but having seen how mining claims are done it is highly possible that he could have filed his claim on land that was not open to claim, either out of ignorance or some other reason. If they ran the office for homesteads the way the BLM runs mining claims, you could file a claim on the Moon and they will sure take your money and file your documents. It doesn't make the claim valid however, I just doubt that there was anyone enforcing the rules about the state lands at that moment in time.

Please do continue,

Oro

I believe this is the Matthew's thread you are talking about
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/418447-jacob-waltz-160-acre-1-4-section.html

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Thanks Roy and Marius for directing me to Matthew's thread on Waltz's Homestead.

From what I could tell by reading through the thread, it seems that an acquaintance of Matthew's has shown him a copy of Waltz's homestead claim. The person seems to have asked Matthew not to distribute that copy without permission, so it looks like he can't share it here. It also looked like Matthew was trying to say that this record is still available to the public as far as he knew, so I guess anyone could actually locate it if they knew where to look?

Matthew wrote:

The first homesteads around Phoenix were filed for in February 1868 John Larsen (Swede Larson) was the first man to settle upon and file a Salt River Valley homestead claim at the Federal land office in Florence, Arizona Territory.

On February 24, 1868 Larsen filed for 160 acres ( one 1/4 section) located at T1N. R3E. the NW quarter of section 14.

He was followed by a flood of similar filings. Jacob Waltz filed for his homestead at T1N. R3E. the NE 1/4 of section 16 in April of 1868.

This is very detailed information on both Swede Larson's claim, and Jacob Waltz's claim. I'm not sure what is meant by filing the claim at the Federal Land Office in Florence, AZ Territory (because that land office was not there until 02 JUN 1873. It was moved to Tucson in 1881).

in 1868, there was only one federal land office I know of, in Prescott. Perhaps the records of the 1868 claims were later moved to the Florence Office? If so, it would make sense that those records were then moved to Tucson when the office was relocated in 1881. Perhaps this is the reason they are so hard to find? Are they in Tucson, or perhaps moved from there to some other depository? Anyone know? Thanks, Jim

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro

I believe this is the Matthew's thread you are talking about
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/418447-jacob-waltz-160-acre-1-4-section.html

Yes that is it thank you Marius!

I am still looking for that tidbit of Jacob Wals I had run across, must have been in a different part of the records. Unfortunately the Ancestry dot com records while excellent are not divided by the years, so if you are reading the '67 and don't notice the page between you can be in the 1870 or worse. It was late and I have to admit I was tired, should have at least saved it to the 'shoebox' but didn't think it was important. I will keep looking though.

I do not know if the homestead entries are at Florence, but it is possible. Supposedly the land entry cases are stored in the US National Archives. Unfortunately it is also possible that Adams had not filed a Homestead Entry but a Pre-emption, I am not sure how they worked but it was apparently fairly common. Also it is possible that Adams simply claimed to have filed a homestead application and didn't really have such a thing at all. It would not be the biggest land fraud in AZ history.

Please do continue;

 

[cw0909]

i found this back when the PSMs were a hot topic, never pursued any
of the info in the article until a few days ago.a Alan Bates
says waltz had a mine with the Pioneer and Walker mining district.
so i looked for the journal,to see if the info was correct, i found
maybe another typo/misspelling of waltz name, (jacob walty) is listed
and the journal was one of the WPA projects. what i wonder did Bates
see the actual entry, or another typed copy with the waltz spelling.
ive not looked for a census for the jacob walty name.
i may have found why the land records seem messed up,maybe another
post on that later,after i look into it a little more


links for the info i looked for
https://la.sharlot.org/index.php/blog/walker-party-forms-the-pioneer-mining-district-part2

https://la.sharlot.org/index.php/bl...arty-forms-the-pioneer-mining-district-part1/

img of page walty name




journal pg.118 for walty name, notation #263
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015070208510;view=1up;seq=130;size=125

record listing
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000239287

 

[musician]

Waltz probably wrote in an old german kind of handwriting. The letters for "y" and "z" are much more similar there than in modern handwriting. "Z" looks like another letter today. So it could be possible, that his own writing was mispelled by english or later readers. You can find examples of old german letters with "Kurrentschrift" or "altdeutsche Schrift".

Regarding Bichard/Buchard. If he lists himself as from Germany, the version Buchard could be correct. Buchard is still a german name today and the old german letter for "u" has a little line above, someone could misunderstand as point of an i. But I don't know anything about the person.

 

[rennes]

Ouote from above.(As an aside, Jacob Waltz spent a couple years (late 1840s) in Natchez MS, in that the incubator for the founding of the KGC under Gen. Quitman. Natchez is the county seat of Adams County MS. [name recognition] Was Waltz indoctrinated there? Maybe, because he and other budding operatives (including, of all people, members of Jesse James' family) relocated to Paso Robles County CA, during the CA gold rush. Paso Robles became quite a western center of Southern political support prior to and during the Civil War.)
Ole Bob would appreciate seeing someone has actually read Sentinel and picked up on the KGC trail from MS to California and Arizona. Soon someone will learn Jesse James' father was KGC and left for California with the rush. Reckon? He really died out there or returned to aid the Confederacy in another capacity.
At least someone on this forum can connect dots. Someone asked why the LUE is mentioned. Hard to believe that someone else hasn't put the LDM, PSM and LUE all together. People, now can understand why can't you learn any secrets on a treasure forum? Too many naysayers contaminate helpful posts with negativity. SOMEDAY!!! WHEW! Maybe check out rennes and learn how far the connections reach or just read Sentinel. BTW Just had mail from one of the crew that a new KGC post is up on their website. <thehootowltree.com> Going there right now. La Chateau!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rennes-le-Château
Marta

 

[mdog]

Ouote from above.(As an aside, Jacob Waltz spent a couple years (late 1840s) in Natchez MS, in that the incubator for the founding of the KGC under Gen. Quitman. Natchez is the county seat of Adams County MS. [name recognition] Was Waltz indoctrinated there? Maybe, because he and other budding operatives (including, of all people, members of Jesse James' family) relocated to Paso Robles County CA, during the CA gold rush. Paso Robles became quite a western center of Southern political support prior to and during the Civil War.)
Ole Bob would appreciate seeing someone has actually read Sentinel and picked up on the KGC trail from MS to California and Arizona. Soon someone will learn Jesse James' father was KGC and left for California with the rush. Reckon? He really died out there or returned to aid the Confederacy in another capacity.
At least someone on this forum can connect dots. Someone asked why the LUE is mentioned. Hard to believe that someone else hasn't put the LDM, PSM and LUE all together. People, now can understand why can't you learn any secrets on a treasure forum? Too many naysayers contaminate helpful posts with negativity. SOMEDAY!!! WHEW! Maybe check out rennes and learn how far the connections reach or just read Sentinel. BTW Just had mail from one of the crew that a new KGC post is up on their website. <thehootowltree.com> Going there right now. La Chateau!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rennes-le-Château
Marta

I read Shadow of the Sentinal ten years ago and although the book offered a lot of history, there really was a lot left out and nothing that would help find a cache. I think Bob has said he held information back and it’s his research so it’s up to him who he gives it to. I think you will find more information in New Mexico Confidential. Some of my threads will also give you information to consider. I posted some things that can be used or discarded as you see fit. My threads are, Things for Further Research, Something New About the LUE. You might find something you can use or maybe get a good laugh.

 

[cw0909]

IDK,if JW would have had much contact in Natchez MS
he filed intent to become a citizen of the United
States on November 12, 1848,and he prob left quickly
as there was an Scarlatina/scarlet fever epidemic
Feb.1, and Nov. 16, 1848
https://www.lib.lsu.edu/sites/default/files/sc/findaid/1403m.pdf

 

[cw0909]

a lot of info in the links

may be why waltz had the land he had
METHODS OF LAND ACQUISITION
Indemnity in Lieu Selections
https://land.az.gov/about/history

land records,from NM Territory that became AZ Territory
seems to have had several Surveyors, and records moved
to dif offices from time to time also
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/10493369


some info on a Surveyor
John A. Clark Surveyor General for NM Territory 1861-1868
would like to read the diaries of JC
New Mexico Office of the State Historian | people

Ralph Emerson Twitchell wrote about
The Spanish archives of New Mexico.........
from new spain era to after the Cw, an
interesting read about land grants,Surveyors, and records of
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001268966

 

[rennes]

I thought the screen shot from some of the old video of the Buzzard's Roost was clear enough for everyone to see the made-made intaglios on the mountain. So those with poor eyesight, I'm allowed to post a photograph of the same shot. There won't be much more on this subject for obvious reasons seen here. Besides the photo attached, I am allowed to say this about the LUE. Karl Von Mueller said in his Prospector's Gazette, maybe 1977. The LUE was in a desert area and was a dangerous place to go. That proves to be the case of where GCR has used the Karl's LUE map to locate several treasure sites. Someone said how can you locate a cache site without digging it up. Perhaps they haven't heard of GPR or the GEM-2. Detecting a store of metal and digging it up are way different. LUE treasure is not something you dig with a shovel, it takes some engineering and heavy equipment. The legal battle it would take to get a permit to take that sort of equipment into a National Forest or Wilderness Area is unimaginable. One permit to dig in the Tonto National Forest was granted in

 

[393stroker]

I couldn`t find a smiley smokin` a joint.

 

[Azquester]

I couldn`t find a smiley smokin` a joint.

Here's "Lue" looking for Treasure with his Telescope.

Louie CK that is...


View attachment 1659412

 

[nobodie]

You can hear a pin drop.

 

[Moonmountain]

How do I start a new Thread

 

[393stroker]

Tap the orange box on the left side of the forum list page.

 

[Moonmountain]

What Paige there is olny ( + Reply to thread ) button