The Lost Dutchman and Peralta's tales are fiction, the my

[sdcfia]

Well I don't know if Adamsville is going to prove to be a strong link to the lost Adams, since the town was founded by one Charles Adams, who sold his flour mill around 1870 and opened a saloon in the same town. As it was only a few miles from Florence, where most of the earliest links to Jacob Waltz lead, it is not too promising to link to the lost Adams in my opinion. Waltz is known to have been active in the Bradshaws while the Adams seems to be in the border area of AZ/NM, not to mention the other glaring difference of lode vs placer.

As for the claims of our new friend Rennes, those are interesting photos, and I see no treasure of any kind nor any gold, ore, or even a vein in place. So, not very different from the big majority of the others who claimed to have found the LDM and have nothing to show for it. By the way Rennes, I hope you are not taking this personal. Most of the guys who claim to have solved the stone maps, found the LDM etc get angry at anyone who doubts their story when really if you consider that over 200 different people have all claimed to have found the LDM in over 200 different places, surely not all of them can be right? You are not the first to arrive on the forum to proclaim how stupid we all are and you have the treasure, solved the stones etc. If you took the time to read through the older threads you will find dozens of others have come before you. So please don't take this personal, but show us the treasure if you want us to believe you have it. If you say you found the LDM you will need to show some ore and perhaps the mine with the vein, and get the ore compared to one of the specimens from Waltz if you want everyone to believe you. Otherwise you are just like all the rest.

Please do continue, no offense intended to anyone.

Oro, I wasn't referring to the Lost Adams Diggings vis-á-vis my reference to Adamsville AZ, or more particularly, the surname Adams. As you know, I have provided a boatload of facts that locate the Lost Adams in an obvious spot in NM (which I may make available to a wider audience if I can flesh out the story a bit more to my own satisfaction).

No, I was referring to the "Adams" link to Jacob Waltz in Post #14. If one accepts the detailed research compiled on Waltz's life history - available on TNet and elsewhere - one might entertain the theory that his dog and pony show is yet another example of misdirection and deception pertaining to an alleged cache of precious metal, this one somewhere in the Gila-Salt region of AZ.

Why do I even care about the LDM/PSM rumors? I'll likely never set foot in the Superstitions to try to ferret out any of the specific clues on the ground - I've got plenty of that to do here in NM. As I said earlier: for me, it's the bigger picture. There are many conspiracy theories out there to ponder, but I consider myself a conspiracy analyst, not a theorist. It's my contention that all the major treasure legends are linked.

 

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[PotBelly Jim]

Well I don't know if Adamsville is going to prove to be a strong link to the lost Adams, since the town was founded by one Charles Adams, who sold his flour mill around 1870 and opened a saloon in the same town. As it was only a few miles from Florence, where most of the earliest links to Jacob Waltz lead, it is not too promising to link to the lost Adams in my opinion. Waltz is known to have been active in the Bradshaws while the Adams seems to be in the border area of AZ/NM, not to mention the other glaring difference of lode vs placer.

As for the claims of our new friend Rennes, those are interesting photos, and I see no treasure of any kind nor any gold, ore, or even a vein in place. So, not very different from the big majority of the others who claimed to have found the LDM and have nothing to show for it. By the way Rennes, I hope you are not taking this personal. Most of the guys who claim to have solved the stone maps, found the LDM etc get angry at anyone who doubts their story when really if you consider that over 200 different people have all claimed to have found the LDM in over 200 different places, surely not all of them can be right? You are not the first to arrive on the forum to proclaim how stupid we all are and you have the treasure, solved the stones etc. If you took the time to read through the older threads you will find dozens of others have come before you. So please don't take this personal, but show us the treasure if you want us to believe you have it. If you say you found the LDM you will need to show some ore and perhaps the mine with the vein, and get the ore compared to one of the specimens from Waltz if you want everyone to believe you. Otherwise you are just like all the rest.

Please do continue, no offense intended to anyone.

Hi Roy,

As you may remember, Adamsville and flour mills are an interest of mine. Here are the "facts" as I've been able to uncover so far:

Ammi White and E.S. Noyes established a flour mill at Casa Blanca in 1860. It was the only mill in the area. There was no mill at Adamsville…yet.

In March 1862, CSA forces under Capt. Sherrod Hunter briefly captured the mill at Casa Blanca, while Jack Swilling took the mill's owner Ammi White prisoner, and escorted him to captivity in Mesilla. White was considered a Union POW and was released when Union forces re-took control of New Mexico in late 1862.

After chasing Hunter out of the area, Union troops built Fort Barrett and enclosed the mill within the fort’s walls. White returned after his release, and by 1864 the mill was operating under steam power. It was called the “Pima Steam Flourmill”.

On May 10, 1867, White sold his interest in the mill to William Bichard. In late September of 1868, a flood on the Gila destroyed the mill. It was disassembled and taken to Adamsville where it was rebuilt. This was the first time there was a flour mill at Adamsville. It was built by the Bichard Bros, not Charles S. Adams.

Charles S. Adams, the founder of Adamsville, had already sold out his interests in Adamsville and moved to the SRV before the mill was built there by William Bichard.

Adams was killed in the “Wickenburg Massacre”, November 5, 1871. He never built or operated a mill at Adamsville. All the grain farmed at Adamsville was taken to Casa Blanca for milling, until the mill was relocated to Adamsville in 1867.(Edit: Sorry, wrong date...sometime between winter 1868 and 1870, but I haven't nailed down the exact date.)

I realize there are stories of Waltz waiting an extra day in Adamsville because Adams didn’t have any flour milled yet (meanwhile Weiser was back at the mine getting killed). Whether or not they are true I have no idea. The only thing I would say is that Adams couldn’t have been the guy operating the mill, or have been the guy Waltz was waiting on to get flour milled. If the story is true, it would have had to been someone else besides Adams. Bichard himself was dead by 1873. So I have no idea who was supposed to be at the flour mill with Waltz. But it definitely wasn’t Adams.

There are also several errors in the Hayden biographical file on William Bichard. It seems Hayden attributed several things Ammi White had accomplished prior to 1866, to William Bichard. The Bichards were English immigrants from San Francisco, and entered the Gila area of AZ no earlier than 1866 or 1867.

Hope you (and everyone here on TNET) have a great Thanksgiving! Take care, Jim

 

[Al D]

Hi Roy,

As you may remember, Adamsville and flour mills are an interest of mine. Here are the "facts" as I've been able to uncover so far:

Ammi White and E.S. Noyes established a flour mill at Casa Blanca in 1860. It was the only mill in the area. There was no mill at Adamsville…yet.

In March 1862, CSA forces under Capt. Sherrod Hunter briefly captured the mill at Casa Blanca, while Jack Swilling took the mill's owner Ammi White prisoner, and escorted him to captivity in Mesilla. White was considered a Union POW and was released when Union forces re-took control of New Mexico in late 1862.

After chasing Hunter out of the area, Union troops built Fort Barrett and enclosed the mill within the fort’s walls. White returned after his release, and by 1864 the mill was operating under steam power. It was called the “Pima Steam Flourmill”.

On May 10, 1867, White sold his interest in the mill to William Bichard. In late September of 1868, a flood on the Gila destroyed the mill. It was disassembled and taken to Adamsville where it was rebuilt. This was the first time there was a flour mill at Adamsville. It was built by the Bichard Bros, not Charles S. Adams.

Charles S. Adams, the founder of Adamsville, had already sold out his interests in Adamsville and moved to the SRV before the mill was built there by William Bichard.

Adams was killed in the “Wickenburg Massacre”, November 5, 1871. He never built or operated a mill at Adamsville. All the grain farmed at Adamsville was taken to Casa Blanca for milling, until the mill was relocated to Adamsville in 1867.

I realize there are stories of Waltz waiting an extra day in Adamsville because Adams didn’t have any flour milled yet (meanwhile Weiser was back at the mine getting killed). Whether or not they are true I have no idea. The only thing I would say is that Adams couldn’t have been the guy operating the mill, or have been the guy Waltz was waiting on to get flour milled. If the story is true, it would have had to been someone else besides Adams. Bichard himself was dead by 1873. So I have no idea who was supposed to be at the flour mill with Waltz. But it definitely wasn’t Adams.

There are also several errors in the Hayden biographical file on William Bichard. It seems Hayden attributed several things Ammi White had accomplished prior to 1866, to William Bichard. The Bichards were English immigrants from San Francisco, and entered the Gila area of AZ no earlier than 1866 or 1867.

Hope you (and everyone here on TNET) have a great Thanksgiving! Take care, Jim

This is great information thank you for the post
just a couple of questions
1. How do we know when Waltz was at Adamsville while weiser was at camp?
2. If the story about Waltz waiting in Adamsville is a deception, how would that story decieve anyone?
3. The story I recall stated that Waltz was waiting for flour because there was none, is this significant? Could he have been waiting for something else?
thank you everyone for your comments

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi Roy,

As you may remember, Adamsville and flour mills are an interest of mine. Here are the "facts" as I've been able to uncover so far:

Ammi White and E.S. Noyes established a flour mill at Casa Blanca in 1860. It was the only mill in the area. There was no mill at Adamsville…yet.

In March 1862, CSA forces under Capt. Sherrod Hunter briefly captured the mill at Casa Blanca, while Jack Swilling took the mill's owner Ammi White prisoner, and escorted him to captivity in Mesilla. White was considered a Union POW and was released when Union forces re-took control of New Mexico in late 1862.

After chasing Hunter out of the area, Union troops built Fort Barrett and enclosed the mill within the fort’s walls. White returned after his release, and by 1864 the mill was operating under steam power. It was called the “Pima Steam Flourmill”.

On May 10, 1867, White sold his interest in the mill to William Bichard. In late September of 1868, a flood on the Gila destroyed the mill. It was disassembled and taken to Adamsville where it was rebuilt. This was the first time there was a flour mill at Adamsville. It was built by the Bichard Bros, not Charles S. Adams.

Charles S. Adams, the founder of Adamsville, had already sold out his interests in Adamsville and moved to the SRV before the mill was built there by William Bichard.

Adams was killed in the “Wickenburg Massacre”, November 5, 1871. He never built or operated a mill at Adamsville. All the grain farmed at Adamsville was taken to Casa Blanca for milling, until the mill was relocated to Adamsville in 1867.(Edit: Sorry, wrong date...sometime between winter 1868 and 1870, but I haven't nailed down the exact date.)

I realize there are stories of Waltz waiting an extra day in Adamsville because Adams didn’t have any flour milled yet (meanwhile Weiser was back at the mine getting killed). Whether or not they are true I have no idea. The only thing I would say is that Adams couldn’t have been the guy operating the mill, or have been the guy Waltz was waiting on to get flour milled. If the story is true, it would have had to been someone else besides Adams. Bichard himself was dead by 1873. So I have no idea who was supposed to be at the flour mill with Waltz. But it definitely wasn’t Adams.

There are also several errors in the Hayden biographical file on William Bichard. It seems Hayden attributed several things Ammi White had accomplished prior to 1866, to William Bichard. The Bichards were English immigrants from San Francisco, and entered the Gila area of AZ no earlier than 1866 or 1867.

Hope you (and everyone here on TNET) have a great Thanksgiving! Take care, Jim

Happy Thanksgiving to you and to everyone here on Tnet!

There are old maps showing "Adams Mill" for the site which is Adamsville, and I don't know if he ever had a mill because I wasn't there. He did however own a saloon, as he advertised in the Tucson newspaper right through 1870, and is supposed to have sold out his interests in Adamsville to move to Phoenix.

The Bichards claimed in their newspaper advertisements to have founded their mill in 1865, so I don't know when it was established.

Waltz certainly could have been delayed due to Charles Adams, as Adams had a drinking establishment and Waltz was supposedly not a teetotaler in that time period, so regardless of who owned the flour mill or what store he might have been buying supplies from, it is certainly possible that Adams was involved.

SDCFIA I don't know if all of the treasure legends are linked or not, but the 'dog and pony show' LDM legend as it stands is almost certainly a mixed up confabulation from several different and unrelated lost mine stories that were in circulation at the time of Waltz's death. In fact it is even questionable whether the whole Waltz/Weiser/Adamsville episode happened or if that is not something "borrowed" from the Jacobs and Ludy/Peralta story. The Ludy story has a nearly identical set of circumstances, one partner was left at the mine while the other went for supplies, both thought the other killed etc. However Waltz definitely had some activities in Florence and almost certainly at Adamsville, after leaving the Bradshaws, so it is quite possible that part of the Waltz tale is truthful. Tom Weedin got his version of the Weiser tale from Dr John Walker, so in my opinion it should not be tossed out of the salad of LDM lore.

Alan M - it may not be too important to nail down the dates involved for Waltz at Adamsville, or whether he waited for flour or not. If you remove these aspects or incidents from the overall picture, it doesn't really change anything, which means there is little reason for it to be a set of lies. It could be the truth. That is the big problem for anyone trying to find the LDM, the truth has been blended in with a lot of unrelated information and outright lies, so it is very difficult to get at the truth.

Please do continue;

 

[sdcfia]

alan m: I'm not sure that the answers to your three questions - if the answers are even available - have any significance, other than the apparent fact that Waltz spent at least some time in Adamsville AZ. The first thing I would check is whether any complete biography is available for Charles S. Adams. I suspect that would be a complete dead end, but the importance here is not the flour miller, but the name "Adams" and the recognition it carries for the Organization loosely referred to as the KGC. Named things, people, places - those are the identifiers in treasure tales, especially those allegedly associated with the KGC.

As an aside, Jacob Waltz spent a couple years (late 1840s) in Natchez MS, in that the incubator for the founding of the KGC under Gen. Quitman. Natchez is the county seat of Adams County MS. [name recognition] Was Waltz indoctrinated there? Maybe, because he and other budding operatives (including, of all people, members of Jesse James' family) relocated to Paso Robles County CA, during the CA gold rush. Paso Robles became quite a western center of Southern political support prior to and during the Civil War.

As another aside: does anyone know the exact coordinates for the Tempe Mystery Glyphs shown below? If so, I'd like to know, because with that information I can provide you with an interesting map of the western Superstition Range that you can play around with concerning the LDM/PSM lore.



Oro: yes, the confusion, cross-pollination, disinformation, et al regarding these treasure tales is maddening. What else can you do except try to gather the earliest information available and try to reconcile it with later stuff? The problem then becomes in choosing which information is the most reliable.

rennes: to echo mdog, what is meant by your LUE comment?

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Happy Thanksgiving to you and to everyone here on Tnet!

There are old maps showing "Adams Mill" for the site which is Adamsville, and I don't know if he ever had a mill because I wasn't there. He did however own a saloon, as he advertised in the Tucson newspaper right through 1870, and is supposed to have sold out his interests in Adamsville to move to Phoenix.

The Bichards claimed in their newspaper advertisements to have founded their mill in 1865, so I don't know when it was established.

Waltz certainly could have been delayed due to Charles Adams, as Adams had a drinking establishment and Waltz was supposedly not a teetotaler in that time period, so regardless of who owned the flour mill or what store he might have been buying supplies from, it is certainly possible that Adams was involved.

SDCFIA I don't know if all of the treasure legends are linked or not, but the 'dog and pony show' LDM legend as it stands is almost certainly a mixed up confabulation from several different and unrelated lost mine stories that were in circulation at the time of Waltz's death. In fact it is even questionable whether the whole Waltz/Weiser/Adamsville episode happened or if that is not something "borrowed" from the Jacobs and Ludy/Peralta story. The Ludy story has a nearly identical set of circumstances, one partner was left at the mine while the other went for supplies, both thought the other killed etc. However Waltz definitely had some activities in Florence and almost certainly at Adamsville, after leaving the Bradshaws, so it is quite possible that part of the Waltz tale is truthful. Tom Weedin got his version of the Weiser tale from Dr John Walker, so in my opinion it should not be tossed out of the salad of LDM lore.

Alan M - it may not be too important to nail down the dates involved for Waltz at Adamsville, or whether he waited for flour or not. If you remove these aspects or incidents from the overall picture, it doesn't really change anything, which means there is little reason for it to be a set of lies. It could be the truth. That is the big problem for anyone trying to find the LDM, the truth has been blended in with a lot of unrelated information and outright lies, so it is very difficult to get at the truth.

Please do continue;

Hi Roy,

I hope you guys aren't getting pounded with snow...we have about a foot of crunchy ice (that used to be snow)...the last few days have been snowblower, plow, shovel, repeat...worst I've ever seen it in NOV since I relocated up here...

Regarding the flour mill quandary...if the Bichards advertised their mill as being founded in 1865, I guess that could be explained as near the date they bought an interest in Ammi White's mill at Casa Blanca...I believe that transaction occurred in San Fran...I've been down this road of research, trying to verify and untangle what was claimed, and what is the truth. The truth of the matter APPEARS to be that the Bichards bought into that mill long after White originally founded it (1867 is the earliest record I've found, but that doesn't mean earlier ones don't exist, of course), and then they bought White out entirely in the spring of 1867, after which White returned to SF...

Adams' saloon in Adamsville SEEMS to have been a short-lived enterprise...from what I was able to find so far, he only operated it for part of the year in 1870. He then seems to have either sold or left it (I believe the Bichards owned the building, and there were rumors of "rum-running" to the Pimas), as he became the Prescott agent for Bichard & Co. Flour Depot later that year. He was also involved with Bichard's holdings in Phoenix during this time frame, which included a short-lived flour mill which burned down(arson rumored). Like the Bichards, he made his home and kept his family in SF, frequently traveling back and forth...so it has been difficult for me to find business records.

As with any research project, it's unlikely any one person has the whole picture...I don't...If you can remember which map that shows "Adams Mill", or the newspaper advertisement with the 1865 date for a Bichard mill, I would be in your debt...I went through my pile of junk and it looks like I don't have those...

One possibility that I've often wondered about...While I've seen records indicating flour was being milled at Casa Blanca for Adamsville farmers, it's also possible that Adams (or someone) had constructed one of the small animal driven mills (that look kind of like an arrastra) at Adamsville. I've not been able to find any evidence of that yet, but it just seems like something that would be worth doing for a settler farming grain back then. A small mill like that would fit well into the story of Waltz having to wait a day to get some flour milled, as such a mill wouldn't produce much and it would be hard to always have enough flour on-hand for sale.



Happy Thanksgiving to All!!!

 

[PotBelly Jim]

alan m: I'm not sure that the answers to your three questions - if the answers are even available - have any significance, other than the apparent fact that Waltz spent at least some time in Adamsville AZ. The first thing I would check is whether any complete biography is available for Charles S. Adams. I suspect that would be a complete dead end, but the importance here is not the flour miller, but the name "Adams" and the recognition it carries for the Organization loosely referred to as the KGC. Named things, people, places - those are the identifiers in treasure tales, especially those allegedly associated with the KGC.

As an aside, Jacob Waltz spent a couple years (late 1840s) in Natchez MS, in that the incubator for the founding of the KGC under Gen. Quitman. Natchez is the county seat of Adams County MS. [name recognition] Was Waltz indoctrinated there? Maybe, because he and other budding operatives (including, of all people, members of Jesse James' family) relocated to Paso Robles County CA, during the CA gold rush. Paso Robles became quite a western center of Southern political support prior to and during the Civil War.

As another aside: does anyone know the exact coordinates for the Tempe Mystery Glyphs shown below? If so, I'd like to know, because with that information I can provide you with an interesting map of the western Superstition Range that you can play around with concerning the LDM/PSM lore.

View attachment 1654106

Oro: yes, the confusion, cross-pollination, disinformation, et al regarding these treasure tales is maddening. What else can you do except try to gather the earliest information available and try to reconcile it with later stuff? The problem then becomes in choosing which information is the most reliable.

rennes: to echo mdog, what is meant by your LUE comment?

Steve, I would like to hear more about this...You probably already know this, but there were also a Samuel Adams and a John Quincy Adams that were on the scene in the goldfields/mines in the Prescott area during the Civil War...very thought-provoking to say the least...

 

[sdcfia]

Steve, I would like to hear more about this...You probably already know this, but there were also a Samuel Adams and a John Quincy Adams that were on the scene in the goldfields/mines in the Prescott area during the Civil War...very thought-provoking to say the least...

It's a deep rabbit hole. When I was interested in KGC research, I found the genealogy websites and forums to be the most productive as far as individuals are concerned. Families tend to know a lot of history that is unavailable otherwise. A lot of good stuff is available on the TNet threads, but you have to be careful because back in the day (ca 1860s to WWI and beyond), the Organization was the same as today's Deep State. Hell, maybe the Deep State is the progeny. Ha ha. Rabbit hole.

 

[Al D]

I believe the Adamsville story, in general, but am still puzzled by a few oddities;
if Queen Valley had flour, or anything in the way of supplies, as Jim states, why did Waltz go to Adamsville instead of Queen Valley?
also, in light of the story indicating that he was aware of Apache in the area, Adamsville would have meant that he had to travel over 20 or so miles of bushy open territory, a favorite for Apache attacks and ambushes.
it seems to me that there may have been another reason in addition to supplies as to why Waltz chose Adamsville.

 

[markmar]

I believe the Adamsville story, in general, but am still puzzled by a few oddities;
if Queen Valley had flour, or anything in the way of supplies, as Jim states, why did Waltz go to Adamsville instead of Queen Valley?
also, in light of the story indicating that he was aware of Apache in the area, Adamsville would have meant that he had to travel over 20 or so miles of bushy open territory, a favorite for Apache attacks and ambushes.
it seems to me that there may have been another reason in addition to supplies as to why Waltz chose Adamsville.

Waltz could had an open account in Adamsville .

 

[azdave35]

I believe the Adamsville story, in general, but am still puzzled by a few oddities;
if Queen Valley had flour, or anything in the way of supplies, as Jim states, why did Waltz go to Adamsville instead of Queen Valley?
also, in light of the story indicating that he was aware of Apache in the area, Adamsville would have meant that he had to travel over 20 or so miles of bushy open territory, a favorite for Apache attacks and ambushes.
it seems to me that there may have been another reason in addition to supplies as to why Waltz chose Adamsville.

was there anything in queen valley at that time?...

 

[Al D]

Hi Roy,

As you may remember, Adamsville and flour mills are an interest of mine. Here are the "facts" as I've been able to uncover so far:

Ammi White and E.S. Noyes established a flour mill at Casa Blanca in 1860. It was the only mill in the area. There was no mill at Adamsville…yet.

In March 1862, CSA forces under Capt. Sherrod Hunter briefly captured the mill at Casa Blanca, while Jack Swilling took the mill's owner Ammi White prisoner, and escorted him to captivity in Mesilla. White was considered a Union POW and was released when Union forces re-took control of New Mexico in late 1862.

After chasing Hunter out of the area, Union troops built Fort Barrett and enclosed the mill within the fort’s walls. White returned after his release, and by 1864 the mill was operating under steam power. It was called the “Pima Steam Flourmill”.

On May 10, 1867, White sold his interest in the mill to William Bichard. In late September of 1868, a flood on the Gila destroyed the mill. It was disassembled and taken to Adamsville where it was rebuilt. This was the first time there was a flour mill at Adamsville. It was built by the Bichard Bros, not Charles S. Adams.

Charles S. Adams, the founder of Adamsville, had already sold out his interests in Adamsville and moved to the SRV before the mill was built there by William Bichard.

Adams was killed in the “Wickenburg Massacre”, November 5, 1871. He never built or operated a mill at Adamsville. All the grain farmed at Adamsville was taken to Casa Blanca for milling, until the mill was relocated to Adamsville in 1867.(Edit: Sorry, wrong date...sometime between winter 1868 and 1870, but I haven't nailed down the exact date.)

I realize there are stories of Waltz waiting an extra day in Adamsville because Adams didn’t have any flour milled yet (meanwhile Weiser was back at the mine getting killed). Whether or not they are true I have no idea. The only thing I would say is that Adams couldn’t have been the guy operating the mill, or have been the guy Waltz was waiting on to get flour milled. If the story is true, it would have had to been someone else besides Adams. Bichard himself was dead by 1873. So I have no idea who was supposed to be at the flour mill with Waltz. But it definitely wasn’t Adams.

There are also several errors in the Hayden biographical file on William Bichard. It seems Hayden attributed several things Ammi White had accomplished prior to 1866, to William Bichard. The Bichards were English immigrants from San Francisco, and entered the Gila area of AZ no earlier than 1866 or 1867.

Hope you (and everyone here on TNET) have a great Thanksgiving! Take care, Jim

Here is the info posted by Jim
I also read other info sources which confirm this, the important aspect IMO is when did Waltz go to Adamsville, pertaining to the story in question.

 

[Al D]

was there anything in queen valley at that time?...

I can’t locate the post by Jim, I will reference it when I do

 

[azdave35]

I can’t locate the post by Jim, I will reference it when I do

larry hedrick showed up in queen valley in the late 1950's...he said the only thing there was a rock house and i think he said it was built after the turn of the century,,,he knew who built it but i cant remember his name

 

[Al D]

I found it, my appology to all for miscredit of said post

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Hey Alan,

I think Marc was referring to the old stage station at Hewitt's when he said "Queen Creek Trading Post"...I might be wrong but that's the impression I got for some reason...

You had three questions in an earlier post…Personally, I think the Waltz/Adamsville story is kind of important…the reason is the source…Bark says he got the story straight from Julia and Reinhart, and Ely seems to confirm this. But there’s very little to the story, as we have it today that has proven out to be true. One example, how Waltz is reported to have explained that he and Weiser were Confederate soldiers…anyway, before we go down the Confederate Conspiracy rabbit hole, back to your questions:

1. How do we know when Waltz was at Adamsville while Weiser was at camp?

If there is any truth to the Adamsville story, (and I’m not saying I have any idea one way or the other) it would place the working of the LDM prior to Adams’ death in 1871. If you drill down a little deeper, it would seem to place the Adamsville event prior to Bichard’s steam mill being erected there between winter 1868- late 1869. (Because all the records indicate Adams did not work this mill, and also Waltz wouldn't have needed to wait for flour if there was a steam mill there...it was also documented that it produced enough flour to supply the SRV and Prescott, and it single-handedly drove down the price of flour in the entire territory) Since Adamsville was apparently settled around 1866, we could say with relative accuracy that the Waltz-Adamsville/Weiser-Death event took place in the 2 or so years between 1866 and 1868.

The reason I tend not to ignore this, is that Waltz disappears between 1866 and 1870. Nor does there seem to be anyone who could be “our” Weiser in the territory during that timeframe. I find it VERY hard to believe that Waltz or Weiser could have escaped some sort of documentation, anything, between 1866 and 1870. So where was Waltz? Nobody that I know of has answered that question. Four-plus years disappeared is a LONG time.

2. If the story about Waltz waiting in Adamsville is a deception, how would that story decieve anyone?

I didn’t mean to give the impression I thought that the story was a deception…I meant that people tend to think the Adamsville mill (Bichard’s) was the mill the story talks about…I believe it’s pretty apparent that particular mill was still in operation at Casa Blanca until late 1868…so there HAD to be another mill there for the story to be true…I’ve done a lot of digging on this, and the more I dig, the more it looks like there was no mill at Adamsville prior to 1869 because records show Adamsville grain was being carried by wagon to Casa Blanca for milling…why do that if there’s a mill in Adamsville? The only explanation is Adams had one of the little donkey mills, which also seems to be what Bark/Ely is talking about, but they don’t say specifically. I've not been able to find any reference to one, either. I always suspected Adams may have had one, but have no proof...YET.

3. The story I recall stated that Waltz was waiting for flour because there was none, is this significant? Could he have been waiting for something else?

The story says he had to wait overnight for a loose horseshoe, and then the next day for flour to be milled. I believe it IS significant…if this story is true, the mine is not deep in the Supes…Waltz seems to be saying he could make it from Adamsville to the mine in just over a day (Dry camp at night, be at the mine early the next day). It’s about 22 miles as the crow flies from Adamsville to Hewitt Station area, about 25 miles to Peralta Canyon area.

 

[Al D]

Hey Alan,

I think Marc was referring to the old stage station at Hewitt's when he said "Queen Creek Trading Post"...I might be wrong but that's the impression I got for some reason...

You had three questions in an earlier post…Personally, I think the Waltz/Adamsville story is kind of important…the reason is the source…Bark says he got the story straight from Julia and Reinhart, and Ely seems to confirm this. But there’s very little to the story, as we have it today that has proven out to be true. One example, how Waltz is reported to have explained that he and Weiser were Confederate soldiers…anyway, before we go down the Confederate Conspiracy rabbit hole, back to your questions:

1. How do we know when Waltz was at Adamsville while Weiser was at camp?

If there is any truth to the Adamsville story, (and I’m not saying I have any idea one way or the other) it would place the working of the LDM prior to Adams’ death in 1871. If you drill down a little deeper, it would seem to place the Adamsville event prior to Bichard’s steam mill being erected there between winter 1868- late 1869. (Because all the records indicate Adams did not work this mill, and also Waltz wouldn't have needed to wait for flour if there was a steam mill there...it was also documented that it produced enough flour to supply the SRV and Prescott, and it single-handedly drove down the price of flour in the entire territory) Since Adamsville was apparently settled around 1866, we could say with relative accuracy that the Waltz-Adamsville/Weiser-Death event took place in the 2 or so years between 1866 and 1868.

The reason I tend not to ignore this, is that Waltz disappears between 1866 and 1870. Nor does there seem to be anyone who could be “our” Weiser in the territory during that timeframe. I find it VERY hard to believe that Waltz or Weiser could have escaped some sort of documentation, anything, between 1866 and 1870. So where was Waltz? Nobody that I know of has answered that question. Four-plus years disappeared is a LONG time.

2. If the story about Waltz waiting in Adamsville is a deception, how would that story decieve anyone?

I didn’t mean to give the impression I thought that the story was a deception…I meant that people tend to think the Adamsville mill (Bichard’s) was the mill the story talks about…I believe it’s pretty apparent that particular mill was still in operation at Casa Blanca until late 1868…so there HAD to be another mill there for the story to be true…I’ve done a lot of digging on this, and the more I dig, the more it looks like there was no mill at Adamsville prior to 1869 because records show Adamsville grain was being carried by wagon to Casa Blanca for milling…why do that if there’s a mill in Adamsville? The only explanation is Adams had one of the little donkey mills, which also seems to be what Bark/Ely is talking about, but they don’t say specifically. I've not been able to find any reference to one, either. I always suspected Adams may have had one, but have no proof...YET.

3. The story I recall stated that Waltz was waiting for flour because there was none, is this significant? Could he have been waiting for something else?

The story says he had to wait overnight for a loose horseshoe, and then the next day for flour to be milled. I believe it IS significant…if this story is true, the mine is not deep in the Supes…Waltz seems to be saying he could make it from Adamsville to the mine in just over a day (Dry camp at night, be at the mine early the next day). It’s about 22 miles as the crow flies from Adamsville to Hewitt Station area, about 25 miles to Peralta Canyon area.

Jim, you are spot on in your assessment, I totally agree, another point is that all accounts of Waltz leaving Phoenix to go to his mine and returning put him out of town for no more than four days, an almost impossible task to walk from Phoenix to the interior of the Superstitions and back in so little time.

 

[Oroblanco]

Potbelly Jim wrote

.If you can remember which map that shows "Adams Mill", or the newspaper advertisement with the 1865 date for a Bichard mill, I would be in your debt...I went through my pile of junk and it looks like I don't have those...

The map (or at least one) has been posted here on T-net before by someone else, I just did a quick search and could not find either of the two I know had it as Adams Mill, one was a military map if I recall correctly. As for the advert showing the claim of being founded in 1865



Arizona citizen., November 29, 1873 page 2

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone, hope you all ate too much!

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Potbelly Jim wrote


The map (or at least one) has been posted here on T-net before by someone else, I just did a quick search and could not find either of the two I know had it as Adams Mill, one was a military map if I recall correctly. As for the advert showing the claim of being founded in 1865

View attachment 1654248

Arizona citizen., November 29, 1873 page 2

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone, hope you all ate too much!

Thank you, Roy! I believe you just cracked the code on something I've been searching for, for a long, long time...I believe the 1865 date refers to their store, which is the earliest date (1865) I have ever seen (it says Sanford, but it was really at Adamsville as they went back and forth because of political shenanigans trying to rename the town)...the "Pioneer Flouring Mills" is what they called the steam mill they purchased/moved from Casa Blanca in 1868/9....Thank you again, Roy, this will help me in nailing down exactly when the Bichards opened their first store, I had nothing from 1865 yet!!!!!!!!!!! Best regards, Jim

 

[mdog]

alan m: I'm not sure that the answers to your three questions - if the answers are even available - have any significance, other than the apparent fact that Waltz spent at least some time in Adamsville AZ. The first thing I would check is whether any complete biography is available for Charles S. Adams. I suspect that would be a complete dead end, but the importance here is not the flour miller, but the name "Adams" and the recognition it carries for the Organization loosely referred to as the KGC. Named things, people, places - those are the identifiers in treasure tales, especially those allegedly associated with the KGC.

As an aside, Jacob Waltz spent a couple years (late 1840s) in Natchez MS, in that the incubator for the founding of the KGC under Gen. Quitman. Natchez is the county seat of Adams County MS. [name recognition] Was Waltz indoctrinated there? Maybe, because he and other budding operatives (including, of all people, members of Jesse James' family) relocated to Paso Robles County CA, during the CA gold rush. Paso Robles became quite a western center of Southern political support prior to and during the Civil War.

As another aside: does anyone know the exact coordinates for the Tempe Mystery Glyphs shown below? If so, I'd like to know, because with that information I can provide you with an interesting map of the western Superstition Range that you can play around with concerning the LDM/PSM lore.

View attachment 1654106

Oro: yes, the confusion, cross-pollination, disinformation, et al regarding these treasure tales is maddening. What else can you do except try to gather the earliest information available and try to reconcile it with later stuff? The problem then becomes in choosing which information is the most reliable.

rennes: to echo mdog, what is meant by your LUE comment?

The organization went to great lengths to locate and organize their named things. In my map work I researched a small town that was a part of one of these landmark layouts. The town had to have a specific name in order to be part of the layout. During the mid 1800s, somebody decided this town should have a new name. A group of strangers appeared and offered free drinks to any man who would vote for the name they offered for the town. The name passed and the town became part of the layout. The guys who bought the drinks left town.