The history of Tayopa

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigo Ed,
Muchas gracias, I look forward to the day when you have ownership locked on your discoveries. One you own the claims, there is no good way for anyone to steal it from you. My passport expired several years ago so we need to get on the stick for that, have never been to Mexico and am looking forward to it. I will feel a bit 'nekkid' without my pistole, but trust that our friends will be armed (Don Jose and you) just in case of emergency. Your wife is wise to be cautious about meeting people from the internet, it does not pay to take chances.

I don't know the answer on that ladder being possibly a stamp mill; my own "copy" of De Re Metallica is on CD and can't get at it to even check. It seems like a logical possibility however.

Your idea about that odd orange hue to El Naranjal gold may well be correct! It would explain it - if that is in fact El Naranjal, you could find a stash of ore that would set you up for life financially. Good luck and good hunting amigo, I look forward to hearing more from you.
your friends in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy & Beth

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Ladies and gentlemen: Oro you asked about water, a critical item in case of a last desperate hold out, or siege. I honestly cannot answer that truthfully, but since most Indian attacks were never prolonged, that wouldn't be too critical, a few large jars would take care of a few days. There were also houses further to the left on that ridge, so I assume that their water needs were met daily. Perhaps there was a spring down in the fault that formed the caseway below and to the right, the green area, also listed as la Huerta, Orchard. See Dobie's map.

This next picture is what remains of what I now believe was the main cuartel, or headquarters. The arroyo in the background has a year long flow of crystal clear water and the fields produced heavy crops. Actually a self contained settlement. Some day I intend to excavate the mound, the remains of the Headquarters, now referred to as the ranch of Tayopa. Notice the different soil colors between the remains of the Headquarters and the field.

My old Isuzu Trooper is pointing to the Church and the Tayopa Barranca, it is just over that far ridge to the south.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning ED: You mentioned the ladder as possibly being a stamp mill setup. As far as I know, no stamps were used in the Tayopa mine itself. I believe that they were still using arrastres.

The following picture indicates why I thought of the ladder symbol was indicative of a tunnel / shaft, especially when it is placed just about where the Indian gal saw the door. also just about the same place as a friend in Alaska 'map dowsed' it.

He he yes, I 'know', but in this business you use every available tool, and also since he had indicated approximately 80% of what we already had known of Tayopa, it can only be regarded as "interesting", no?. He also indicated a large copper property near Hermosillo on the coast, which I did not follow up, due to lack of faith, but which is now being developed into a large mine. Sigh. Answers??

And no Oro , that is 'not' what I was referring to when I said that I was not at liberty to discuss it at this time and here.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. are you reading this Marc? You were once interested.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

That is curious about the water supply; I was half-expecting you to mention finding a cistern or two, as some Jesuit missions did take this step to ensure a water supply.

I have heard that (somewhere) before about the spokes around the circle telling how deep to the treasure, but wonder what measurement they were using - was it in feet, ells, varas, fathoms? A big difference between eight feet and eight fathoms! Have you figured out what that measure would be? Thank you in advance,
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Oro, regarding cisterns, I saw none in the vicinity, but water could easily have been gotten, even under siege, just below the causeway.. Most drinking water Ollas are approx. 5 gallons in size. It would be an easy matter to store a no. of them up there at the beginning of hostilities. Remember, in most cases, the Indian converts were left to fend for themselves during an actual attack, only the Jesuits and the military probably be in the mission or chuch.Generally, they had prior knowledge due to their spy system and faithful Indian converts.

As for the spokes indicating depth, that was included simply because it was on the same page - I did tell you that I was lazy, no? - . Frankly that would depend greatly upon who, where, what, size, and how something was buried .


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

This is a view to the SE. There are no roads out there and probably only 6 - 7 Indian ranches. Room to move around in , and one wonders why I love it. It was even more isolated and empty when I first started exploring this country.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Cubfan64]

What a beautiful area to escape to!! Really enjoying this thread RDT!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Cubber, I love to watch the summer storms sweeping across out there , You can watch the lightning and rain move across while staying nice and warm in front of the fire. Someday I may have a picture window to really enjoy it.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. about that hour?

 

[Cubfan64]

Oops RDT - forgot about that!! 8:10pm

 

[Oroblanco]

Gracias por la informacion! I hope not to test your patience too much with the questions. I would like to know if you found any tile, as in roofing tiles, broken or not, or if Our Lady of Guadelupe even had tile roofs or were they the packed earthen roofs? Thank you in advance;
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Oro: You asked if any fired tile had been found. No, to my knowledge, none have been found.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

That is certainly a beautiful view, and beautiful country. The terrain around the mission has me puzzled, as the story goes Tayopa was massively assaulted by Indios, perhaps several times; I can't imagine how an attacking force could get at the mission very well. However if they did once get into the mission, escape would be very difficult. Any thoughts on how that actual attack went? Thank you in advance,
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Oro: You posted -->The terrain around the mission has me puzzled, as the story goes Tayopa was massively assaulted by Indios, perhaps several times; I can't imagine how an attacking force could get at the mission very well
***************
Frankly I haven't the slightest idea how many times, but that was the very reason for it being up there. There is only one effective access, over the causeway. A hand full of Spanish soldiers could easily hold it against thousands of Indians.

Remember, some of the fathers had been in the Rhine river valley, they simply copied the same techniques. Shall we say a miniature Castle?
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You asked -->However if they did once get into the mission, escape would be very difficult.
************
Normally yes, but they had an ace in the hole, which you will learn about when we meet. They were fairly well checked out in defensive warfare.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Good morning Oro: You posted -->The terrain around the mission has me puzzled, as the story goes Tayopa was massively assaulted by Indios, perhaps several times; I can't imagine how an attacking force could get at the mission very well
***************
Frankly I haven't the slightest idea how many times, but that was the very reason for it being up there. There is only one effective access, over the causeway. A hand full of Spanish soldiers could easily hold it against thousands of Indians.

Remember, some of the fathers had been in the Rhine river valley, they simply copied the same techniques. Shall we say a miniature Castle?
========================================================================================

You asked -->However if they did once get into the mission, escape would be very difficult.
************
Normally yes, but they had an ace in the hole, which you will learn about when we meet. They were fairly well checked out in defensive warfare.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Thank you for your replies amigo; frankly Tayopa holds many mysteries beyond just the mines and precious metals, at least for me. The subject of the Apache attacks, and/or the combined Pima apostates, Opatas, etc rising in rebellion, and that there were survivors of at least one of these attacks. How did the attackers ever get into the mission, when we can presume it must have been guarded at the normal access point? How did anyone survive such an attack, once the enemies were inside? I get the image of Troy or Carthage once the enemies are inside the walls, there is no good way to escape.

The mule pack trains must have been particularly exposed to attack too - it would have been fairly simple to pin them on the trail and then pick off the mule drivers. Yet this mission was able to operate for quite some time, from 1603 to at least 1646. There could be a good number of relics in the area, besides the official treasures.
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Oro you posted --> How did anyone survive such an attack, once the enemies were inside? I get the image of Troy or Carthage once the enemies are inside the walls, there is no good way to escape.
*****************
There was. May I ask you how would you plan to bypass such a situation?
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Artifacts, yes prob many, but remember, it never was a huge settlement and most utensils etc were primitive, or of of Indian origin. As I mentioned in another post, the descendants of the guardians of the no. 2 deposit told me that one day the black robes appeared bearing many artifacts from the church, scrolls, books, clothing, bars of metal, etc. which they placed in the deposit then caved the side of the hill down over the two piece metal door.

This deposit is still waiting. The woman's brother was still alive the last that I heard of in San Benardo. However, since I know to within a few meters where the doors are, he isn't critical, but beyond that I presume that I am the only one alive that knows of it and where.

Hint, remember the story in Dobie's book about the two women that were gathering firewood when the terrific storm came up. After, when returning home, they saw a crack in the side of the hill with a metal door. When they returned with help, they could never find it again because of another heavy rain had covered it up again?

I agree, I have too much in my head and not enough down on paper. If anything happens to me, I presume that they will be lost ,except for a casual find in the future. If I can get rid of this lethargy that I have developed this past 100 years, or is it 200? I will start filing them, but in two separate sections, the general data in one, the fine details in another.

Remind me to tell you of the details of the old mission near Yepache, Chihua. which was one of the way stations that they used to move metal clandestinely across northern Mexico to the East coast and on to Rome. It is no longer visible, rather, it has dissolved back into the ground. like the remains of the headquarters up at Tayopa. The Indians up there want me to bring a detector to find the underground room which still has the cargo of the last mule train that was there at the time of the expulsion. At the surface nothing is visible, but aerial photographs clearly show the site due to the differences between the normal local soil and the materiel they used to build the Adobe mission with.
Sigh

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigo,

To be honest, looking at that terrain, the mission site looks like an "island" in the air, with no safe alternate escape route available. A rope, hung down off the cliff-sides would expose anyone trying to escape to being fired on from above and no way to get out of sight. The only safe route I can think of is a tunnel, which would lead off of that escarpment down into a side canyon out of sight of the mission, but the labor to create such a tunnel would be immense and its secret would likely become well known.

That iron door vault is quite a puzzle, why does it occasionally get un-covered (or partially uncovered) then re-covered, unless it is on a steep hillside where drainage is a problem. If water drainage is causing problems around the door, the vault chamber may well likewise be flooded, ruining any archive of documents. I am speculating here of course, and HOPE that no such water problem has occurred.

I look forward to reading more, hope you will fill in some of that mystery of how and where the bullion was actually shipped. I even wonder if the bullion was actually being shipped to Rome, or to some other place that the Jesuits had chosen as their repository; since large sums of monies were found to be held in banks in the Netherlands after 1773, rather than in the Gesu in Rome which would be the "logical" place. Any ideas? thank you in advance,
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good morning Oro : You asked about the door, which one? There are two, one in the Tayopa baranca, and the other approx. one day to the East, which is part of the Second depository. The records etc are in the second, what is in the one in the Barranca, I frankly have no idea except, yes, there are things stored in there.

No. 1 is buried. It has not been uncovered.

No. 2 is also buried, but may have been the one in Dobie's book, the one that the women saw. It fits, but?

On the deposit the woman told me the details after I had cured both she and her husband.. She said that her ancestors had been commisioned by the Blackrobes to excavate a tunnel in the middle of the small mt / hill, then to go length wise. Later they came down with a double vertically hung metal door which they installed, then commenced to periodically load the deposit and empty it with bars over the years.

One day they appeared with many loads of things, including church artifacts, books, scrolls, and bars, etc. which they placed in the tunnel. They then locked the doors and caved the over hanging earth over the door hiding it with several ft of dirt. Her family was left in charge.
========================================================================================

You posted -->
I even wonder if the bullion was actually being shipped to Rome, or to some other place that the Jesuits had chosen as their repository; since large sums of monies were found to be held in banks in the Netherlands after 1773,
***************

Extremely interesting data Oro, tends to confirm that they were more than just cosy with the Dutch. Of course the then No. 2 in the Jesuit hierachy telling my contac that "yes, we did, but we don't do such things any more", while chuckling, had already established this to me. Fascinating sector of still unwritten history. I rather suspect that once the story of Tayopa is made public, many doors will then be opened, since there will be no secret any more of their take over plans.
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You posted --> the mission site looks like an "island" in the air, with no safe alternate escape route available
***********
There was, as I will explain to you when we meet.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good morning: I suppose that there are only so many questions that can be asked at this point and apparantly we have reached that point.

So, perhaps it is time to start from the first idea of looking for Tayopa.

When I first started exploring the northern barrancas of Mexico, I often spent weeks at a time without meeting another human, not so today. I have posted about traveling hard for an entire day, yet only being perhaps 1-2000 meters from where your camped last night. Perhaps this might give you an idea of what I was talking about.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Real de Tayopa wrote

good morning: I suppose that there are only so many questions that can be asked at this point and apparantly we have reached that point.

So, perhaps it is time to start from the first idea of looking for Tayopa.

Are you sure of that? Did you not notice how many thousands of questions I have posed to some others here over the years, with FAR less to go on? I can think of a few hundred right offhand, but have been trying not to flood you with them as much is of purely historical interest and my personal curiosity. However, that said - if you are willing to tell it, I for one am very happy to read the full story or as much as you are comfortable telling in public; heck this is what I was trying to work to anyway!

I have to say one more thing - what beautiful and rugged country! I can understand how trying to cross it must have been quite a challenge, and would be at any time. Thank you for sharing it, and it does help with getting a realistic picture of what you went through.
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, k, I will try to answer any questions on Tayopa, or any of the others in the lower GoldenTriangle. Locating them was necessary to have a solid enough base to warrant concentrating on Tayopa. This does not mean opening them up, but positively identifying them close enough so that If I, or another, wished to really work on it, it could be done.

Tayopa

Gloria Pan

Las Pimas

La Tarasca

La Tepocas

Don Jose de La Mancha