The history of Tayopa

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning again: Oro if you wish to see what the country in general to the North and leading to Tayopa is like, go to -->

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174813&page=5

If you can only see #5, go to the end of the same bar, to 'last', click on the 'down' arrow, then type 6 in the space, then go. The rest should show up..

This is a record of some motorcyclists traveling through the representative country surrounding Tayopa North to the border.. It is best probably to start with pp 5 forthe pictures. The roads are typical. Remember, when I was in the intiial search for Tayopa, most of these roads, fences, and many of the towns did not exist.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[Springfield]

Morning again: Oro if you wish to see what the country in general to the North and leading to Tayopa is like, go to -->

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174813&page=5

If you can only see #5, go to the end of the same bar, to 'last', click on the 'down' arrow, then type 6 in the space, then go. The rest should show up..

This is a record of some motorcyclists traveling through the representative country surrounding Tayopa North to the border.. It is best probably to start with pp 5 forthe pictures. The roads are typical. Remember, when I was in the intiial search for Tayopa, most of these roads, fences, and many of the towns did not exist.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Great photos on that dirt bike forum. The country looks identical in every aspect to the Gila headwaters country here in SW New Mexico. In fact, I could be looking out my window here in Pinos Altos and seeing the same thing. Apacheria. Question: the photos you've posted above of the barrancas in Tayopaville - how much of the country is as steep as the pictures? A few square miles? A few hundred?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening Springfield my friend: You asked about the very broken up country in the last picture, it is at the head waters of the Rio Mayo, near the Cascada Basasiachi, I would say a few thousand sq kilometers. It took me 3 days on my mule to reach it, now just a few hours from Hermosillo or Chihuahua via a modern paved hiway. civilization BAH !!!!

For more information Go to ==> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basaseachic_Falls

Curiously, we also have a "Pinos Altos" up near Yecora, north of Tayopa, rich silver mine. It is about 6000 ft

I love NM also.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro, k, I will try to answer any questions on Tayopa, or any of the others in the lower GoldenTriangle. Locating them was necessary to have a solid enough base to warrant concentrating on Tayopa. This does not mean opening them up, but positively identifying them close enough so that If I, or another, wished to really work on it, it could be done.

Tayopa

Gloria Pan

Las Pimas

La Tarasca

La Tepocas

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hola amigo;
I noticed that you did not mention Minas Prietas? Was it too, located in the "golden triangle"?

I am curious about the lake that is supposedly right beside Tayopa as described by one of those who claimed to have found it; this mystery lake is not mentioned by other sources and certainly not by Nentvig or any Jesuit source; have you seen evidence that any lake ever existed there, or is that one of the 'red herrings' that got into circulation in the late 1800's? Thank you in advance;
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening ORO : You asked -->you did not mention Minas Prietas? Was it too, located in the "golden triangle"?
***********
I honestly can't answer that. There were two more up by Caborca, but I can't remember their names, but since they were not in the basic zone I never researched them.
================================================== =======================================

You also asked -->I am curious about the lake that is supposedly right beside Tayopa as described by one of those who claimed to have found it;
*****************
sorry, no lake. One of the herrings. Look at the Sat picture that I posted, impossible.

Next ??

I traveled up the present Chihuahuha Pacific RR while they were still surveying it. There were no roads anywhere then, now barbed wire and towns etc everywhere. Have tons of partially OT stories if any one is interested.

I covered most of that country on foot and mule alone. In some places I am still known as the Lil Gringo with the big pistol that knew how to use it hehehe.

Here are some shorts of some of that country to keep you being bored, you can look at them from time to time.

















Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose, Dueno el Minas y Real de Tayopa wrote

I covered most of that country on foot and mule alone. In some places I am still known as the Lil Gringo with the big pistol that knew how to use it hehehe.

Here are some shorts of some of that country to keep you being bored, you can look at them from time to time.

Awesome country amigo, thank you for sharing that - the train length was amazing BTW. Now as you have mentioned it, what are you referring to when you say "lil Gringo with the big pistole" are you referring to a firearm, or a part of the physical anatomy?

This next question (sorry for going all over the map and not following a logical pattern) may seem un-related, but may I ask what you carried and used for a shelter while in the field? A pup tent, tarp, small "pop" type tent, or just siwash it with a piece of canvas to keep the wet off? What about crawling, creeping critters, did you have a way to keep them out or have you had those very unpleasant encounters of a bedmate with 100 legs? Thank you in advance;
Roy

Coffee?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning ORO, I NEVER turn down a cuppa, even your's, gracias. You asked ->"lil Gringo with the big pistole- - - - -- - - - -- - --
**************

A .357 S&W, sheesh, did you think-----? blushing.
=========================================================================================

You were also curious --> may I ask what you carried and used for a shelter while in the field? A pup tent, tarp, small "pop" type tent, or just siwash it with a piece of canvas to keep the wet off? What about crawling, creeping critters, did you have a way to keep them out or have you had those very unpleasant encounters of a bedmate with 100

**************
Since I mostly traveled by mule, and alone, I had to go very basic. Most of the weight was food. I had a multifolded up light weight tarp which combined with a blanket served as the 'saddle blanket'. Yep, I admit that the both were a bit rank, but then after a few days, you are used to the mule sweat, and frankly, I certainly didn't smell any better.

So, I had the equivilent of a shelter half, contact with the ground was the same as you and Beth have done hundreds of times, just a daily guessing match with the ground's fiendish hidden kidney prodders. ..

Clothing was a light weight khaki jacket, two shirts and pants of the same, socks and underclothing. And of course my Border Patrol Stetson

Equipment --> the infamous .357 pistol 18 rnds of ammo on belt, good heavy weight pocket knife, machete, and toilet articles, in case I met an interesting human female somewhere -- never happened sniff, usual one pot, large cup, etc.

Anyway you get the idea. oops, I almost forgot, a big bag of hard candies for the kiddies in the occasional Indian ranch.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good afternoon: I often wonder why Oro or my mommy never warned me about this deadly danger to Explorers? Sigh

-->

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

YOW - now that is extremely dangerous! All male treasure hunters ought to be put on notice of this un-foreseen hazard! Yikes!
<excellent one amigo!>

The reason I asked about what sort of a shelter is because the look of that topography does not show a lot of flat areas to pitch any sort of a tent. <Not counting the bottoms of the washes, best camping site for anyone wishing to die in a flash flood> Just finding a place to get a night's sleep must be a problem there. What about the mule? Do you tether, picket, hobble or just allow to forage but make sure your mule will come when called? It can sure spoil a whole day of elk or treasure hunting to have to spend it hunting for a four-legged critter than doesn't want to do his (or her) share of the work.

<Beth and I are both utterly spoiled now for 'roughing it' - with the self-inflating air mattress and a cheap pop tent so you don't have any extra bed companions, not even a mass of ugly skeeter bites on any exposed flesh in the morning, I guess we are just both getting soft.>


How long did it take you to hike or ride out the day you found it? I can just imagine how you felt, must have been quite a trip coming back out with the knowledge you had found what you were looking for! Thank you in advance;
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Oro: You asked --> Do you tether, picket, hobble or just allow to forage but make sure your mule will come when called?
******************
When I first started exploring the then basically unknown regions of the Barranca de Cobre, Rio Mayo, Rio Chinapas, and the Rio Yaqui with their tributaries. I used Mule transportation exclusively., This is still the only way short of flying, to travel in that country.

I soon acquired a little pinto mule that was as tough as they come. She could go for weeks in regions where a horse would starve or simply collapse and come out fatter and sassier than when we entered. She was a scrounger.

Whenever I tightened the single cinch, she would turn her head and give a vicious snap at my shoulder, but somehow, she never bit or kicked me, just showed her displeasure.

I could never keep her out of a green wheat field, no matter how many strands of barbed wire surrounded it. She had learned from her father, to lie on her side and squirm under the wire or pole. Whenever I missed Her, I only had to ask who had wheat planted, and there she would be contentedly chomping away. I have no idea how much green wheat I had to buy because of her.

The usual manner to control the wandering of animals at night while on the trail, is with hobbles. This is where you tie both front hooves together, since it restricts their mobility yet allows them to graze at night. Unfortunately for me, she could run faster with hobbles than I could run, so I looked around for something to attack her in the cold mornings.

I tried sugar, salt, fruit, etc, the usual stuff, but nothing worked. Then one day I noticed that she loved "clean" toilet paper, that solved my problem. I merely had to wave perhaps 10 sheets of the paper in the air and she would come trotting over to me, take the paper gently out of my hand, close her eyes, lay her ears back, and contentedly chew away

One day when I had been on the trail for a couple of weeks without encountering anyone, I saw a small isolated ranch. Since most ranches like this, always have a small store for the Indians and ranch workers. I headed for it since I was running low on supplies.

As I approached, I saw the usual "hangers ons" loafing in front of the door. so I sat very erect in the saddle and tried to look dignified. As I drew near, I was very aware of their watching my every movement and remarking in low tones to each other.

I dismounted, and threaded my way through them, greeting them courteously as I passed. I entered the store whch had the usual very limited items, purchased coffee, sugar, Tortilla flour etc. The owner was very friendly, and we talked about my exploring and looking for lost Spanish mines and ruins. He gave me some valuable information..

I finally turned to leave, and as I reached the door, I remembered that I was running low on the toilet paper for my mule. Without thinking, I turned around and in a loud voice, said "I need 4 rolls of toilet paper for my mule".

There was a dead silence for a minute, then hell broke loose. The men were literally rolling around on the ground laughing hysterically. It was several moments before they stopped laughing and I was able to get in a belated, lame excuse as to why I need the paper sheesh, talk about embarrassing.

Even today in that country, I am still known as the Gringo that w--- his mules er ah butt.

However, as an after effect, the word proceeded me and the people were extremely nice and informative to me. It had broken the traditional reserve to a stranger. ©@
=========================================================================================

You asked --> How long did it take you to hike or ride out the day you found it?
**************

Interesting thingie here, I actually drove to it in my Isuzu Trooper -- let down?? They had opened a lumber mill cooperate right next to it, one of my main problems. I had a stack of aerial photographs with which I was able to identify the Tayopa canyon complex, almost exactly as drawn in Dobies infamous map before i actually went up there. If you go back to the photograph of the Tayopa barranca, post # 59, you can see the lumber mill up on top of the Mesa overlooking Tayopa.
=========================================================================================

You posted -->the look of that topography does not show a lot of flat areas to pitch any sort of a tent
**************

Where there is a will, there is a way.

On that backpacking trip to look for Mayan ruins, one day the Indians told us of a cave up near the ridge where an outlaw had lived. So with gleams of Reales in our eyes we decided to go check it out. Sun set found us still below it, so we looked for a spot to spend the night, We found a small finger of a ridge, about 15 x 24ft long in a grove of small bamboo (Carizzo).

After clearing out a space sufficient for both of our mosquito netting combinations. we ate, then settled in for the night, each in his own skeeter cage. As usual we were both nude because of the heat and humidity. He was laying on his back, smoking, while I was drinking my tea on my tummy. We heard the sound of a heavy animal creeping around us just below the edge of the ridge. It was stepping on the dried bamboo leaves.

It circled us several times, giving loud sniffling sounds as it checked out our odor. Naturally we were in a high state of alert, gripping our .22 pistols and Machetes -it is surprising how defenseless one feels when naked, sheehs.. After several minutes had gone by without any more noise, I realized that I needed to go to the bathroom. I cautiously unzipped the netting comb, and slid outside, still nude, and clutching my .22, walked to the edge and commenced peeing. For a second everything remained calm, then there was a horrible growl / snort combination, the sound of a heavy body crashing down the side of the hill. We later figured that I had peed directly upon him.

Of course by this time I was safely ?? back inside of my skeeter net. My partner was laughing hysterically and making garbelled, gurgally, obscene remarks comparing my physiology to the totally inadequate .22 pistol. Sigh. My revenge came a little later when he had the bathroom call, however he never left his skeeter comb, just unzipped , rolled over, then scooped out a shallow hole. That was my cue to get him hehehehe

The next morning we found Jaguar tracks that must have been 7 - 8 inches across, he was a huge one. ©@

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Cubfan64]

totally inadequate .22 pistol

Wow, you can say that again!!

Thanks for the entertaining image of you asking for T-paper for your mule . It reminded me of a story my mom told me about sending my dad to the grocery store with a list of items right after they got married. He grew up on a farm, and I doubt he EVER went grocery shopping as his mom took care of all that sort of thing.

One of the items on the list was "T-paper" - when he got home, he told my mom that he he got everything on the list, but had to go to the hardware store to get tar paper and wondered what she needed that for .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI, cute, cute, cuber. heheheheh.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Ponchosportal]

Buenos dias senior Real de Tayopa,

I am a man of few words and therefore routinely feel no need to express my opinions simply because I have them.

Having said that; you sir are amazing. Gods speed in your efforts exploiting Tayopa but I would rather listen to your stories which have made me as rich as your discovery.

I have read many factual accounts of historical great adventure and it is not often one gets to hear the real story from the mule owners mouth, at least one who is still alive.

Thank you greatly for your efforts to share with us your adventure, the history of your discovery and the history of Tayopa.

Via con dios hombre,
ponchosportal

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose, el Tropical Tramper wrote

Interesting thingie here, I actually drove to it in my Isuzu Trooper -- let down?? They had opened a lumber mill cooperate right next to it, one of my main problems. I had a stack of aerial photographs with which I was able to identify the Tayopa canyon complex, almost exactly as drawn in Dobies infamous map before i actually went up there. If you go back to the photograph of the Tayopa barranca, post # 59, you can see the lumber mill up on top of the Mesa overlooking Tayopa.

No, but then at that point (having driven to the sawmill and looking at the site) you were still not at the point of certainty that it is indeed Tayopa, for you had not yet set foot on site, nor handled any specimens correct? Even trying to get to the site from the sawmill must have been (and remains) quite a task, no? Or were you certain that it is Tayopa, even before setting foot on it? Thank you in advance;

Ponchosportal wrote

I am a man of few words and therefore routinely feel no need to express my opinions simply because I have them.

I hope that you will change your habit of not posting your views, for the discussion is so much the richer with more minds at work than if we have only one or two actively posting. We are all enriched when everyone participates, whether we can agree or not. That is the basic purpose of our forums after all, so that we can talk with each other. I am in agreement with the rest of your statements.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Poncho Buenas dias: I thank you for an extremely interesting post, that was an very high compliment, and I thank you again.


When I was getting married, an Indian friend of mine had heard of it. In the rush of my commitment, I had forgotten to send him an invitation since he lived in a remote area at that time.

On the morning of the wedding, who shows up at the house but my friend, he was dirty, tired, hungry, and carrying a bundle wrapped in a water resistant cloth. We promptly fed him, gave him a bath and let him sleep for a bit, while I went on with my commitment. At the Wedding he appeared in his worn, but immaculate levis, and his favorite red shirt. He also showed up at the reception then disappeared. When I later asked where he had gone, they told me that he had gone home.

Later I found that he had spent two days on the trail on foot, crossing swollen streams that were almost chest high from the hurricane that had just passed through, to attend my wedding.. Two hours after the reception he returned home again.

When my father heard of this he said, "You will never have a greater compliment paid to you than what this man just did for you. Walking almost 5 days just to be at your wedding. This also tells me that while you have been exploring, living among the Indians etc., you have left a legacy of trust and faith behind you. This is also an indirect compliment to me, since it tells me that I raised you correctly".


Sheesh

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Sounds like you had a great wedding! <Great story too BTW> Please do, continue.

 

[lilorphanannie]

hi , although i have no personal interest in the tayopa legend ,i have come across the mention of its existence in some of the libraries, over the years.i live in mexico and am fluent in spanish and do research on mining history. maybe something here will be of help to others with their search. intresting reading might be for some// "cronicas e historia religiosa de la provincia de la compania de jesus de mexico en nueva espana"// and "historia de los triunfos de nuestra fe entre gentes las mas barbaras y fueras del nuevo orbe" //both written by andres perez de rivas printed in madrid in 1645 on file // there is mention of tayopa (spelled teopa for the first hundred years or so ) the "e" would have the "a" sound in spanish. and then the spelling varies until tayopa was settled for as the acceptable spelling in modern new world spanish. this transgression to a more comfortable and visually pleasing appearance to the word is common in new world languages especially trying to create a spelling for a never before written indigenous word. father pedro mendez// fr tomas basilio// and fr francisco olinano were the first priests to write back to mexico city with reports on the first missions in la provincia de ostimuri 1590-1640// fr tomas basilio was rector there for 20 years// all of them mention visiting teopa on occasion in their letters // also there is a somewhat recently written book "la tarasca maravillosa y el prodigioso tesoro de tayopa" by alfonso lopez riesgo, available online. la tarasca is another famous lost mine , the book covers two different lost treasures in the state of sonora. i havent read the book but alfonso lopez in a recognized historian.and it should be lighter reading. i know there are those who will disagree feverously, and i mentioned in my comments sometime back , but for mexican historians the tayopa mission has never been lost, it is documented as having existed and its ruins even listed on modern maps (in the geographically correct place),and yes, theres at least three places that are named tayopa ,and one coinsides precisely with the map in dobies book. i hope someone one day will find this lost treasure,but up til now in my view the only person who has made money off of the tayopa legend was frank dobie, a very clever man.

 

[Springfield]

..... in my view the only person who has made money off of the tayopa legend was frank dobie, a very clever man.

A very clever man indeed, one who knew his job and did it well.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning O'Annie: Thanks for a very interesting post, I enjoyed it, please post more. As for Tayopa yes, obviously it existed. Because of documention which hasn't been made public, Tayopa does exist, and proves that I do have 'The Tayopa'. The variation of spelling is common on many mine names, most that are repetitions of a basic one, Tayopa was one. This is the reason they are not used in identifying mining properties, only an official expediente is used legally.

As for La Tarasca, and it's sister, 'Las Pimas', that was one of my primary targets to see if there was any basis to the Tayopa story. I can fill you in on this search if you wish, also you are free, naturally, to ask or question any of my findings, in fact I encourage it. This search also included La Gloria Pan and Las Tepocas., also located. However, remember I will not post 'exactly' where 'X' is , he he .

Again, today you can actually drive to within a few kilometers of them. At times I feel like the older generation did when I was a child talking about how it was open country with no fences or roads in those days. I am a bit atavistic and loved the idea of just being able to roam wherever I wished with no fences or roads, just get on my mule and go. Although this is rapidly coming to an end, sigh. The Mexican scrub cattle are now becoming a memory, they have switched to prime breeds and need the fences to control and protect their investments.

Incidentally, while I was living with the Yaqui, I found that the Bacatetes were filled with Charolais that had gone wild. Long story there, anyway
this is going far off topic.

You posted -->

i hope someone one day will find this lost treasure,but up til now in my view the only person who has made money off of the tayopa legend was frank dobie, a very clever man.
************

Dobie never was at Tayopa, he was close in that he was at Yecora, but --.
========================================================================================

You also posted -->but for mexican historians the tayopa mission has never been lost, it is documented as having existed and its ruins even listed on modern maps (in the geographically correct place),and yes, theres at least three places that are named tayopa ,and one coinsides precisely with the map in dobies book.
***************

if it is possible, I would like you to show Tayopa on a modern map, particularly the one that coinsides with Dobies' map..

Gracias

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. the last is for you Orphan Annie.

 

[lilorphanannie]

hello querido amigo, el senor el vagabundo tropical, espero que se encuentre bien, hi ,don jose ,i've been in the field now and away from a computer for a while.the only point i was hoping to make ,was to help people in their treasure hunt. using proper research methods. when we hear about a treasure story ,and it intrests us ,to the point we decide to devote time to search for it. we must confirm the truth of the initial information, check the sources ,and see if we have enough leads to work with, most likely there is nothing of real value ,just rehashed info,no sources are ever given,only a a really seductive story, with the treasure just around the corner ,always just out of reach. if not the treasure would have already been found. so we need first hand sources, not second or third. we need ship manifests ,map cordinates,etc. in the case of tayopa as a jesuit mission, we need church records ,mining records.hopefully you have some unknown clue ,or additional map or orginal letter to guide you,that not public knowledge. public information, is available in the national archives in mexico city (los archivos de la nacion) they have a website ,and people employed to to do the research for you ,and of course ,the church archives from guadalajara and durango. they are slowly putting the records on cd and are for sale.its a lot of work to research but it will save you a lot of time and money in the long run. i have a library of those cd's.i research old mining sites for people ,not for treasure ,but for current mining potential. there is also a report written in the 1860s of a german mining company visiting tayopa and identifying the group of mines,reporting their condition, as well as giving the geographic cordinates for tayopa. i have a map my posession, anyone can get one.its the tayopa that coincides with dobies map. we were working in the area in the 1980s and i inquired about being curious about the place named tayopa on their map ,as we were working in the area(a mexican exploration company). many of the mexican geologists who have worked years for the mexican government in the sierra madre ,in exploration and research know where the tayopa site where your claims are ,are located. the information is in their map and exploration files ,they got the map for me.the tayopa site adam westwood visited is also documented clearly,on another map. noone knows the sierra better than them or has access to better information.than some of those cartographers and geologists. i have visited el cerro prieto the site of la tarasca as well as probably several hundred other geologists over time, its not lost either just caved in. there are derroteros that will guide you to the mouth of la pima, if you're up to the walk and jumpimg fences. i also know the gloria pan, arroyo and the gentleman from temoris who has claimed that mine site .my comment about dobie as being the only one who has made any money off of tayopa refers to the money he made by selling his books, by selling dreams .i know well enough he never visited tayopa. my emphasis has been on this site is to add what i know to be true about the physical location of tayopa ,nothing about the treasure. but im curious ,the map in dobies book ,has it ever been authenticated? where is it now? in who's possession ? was it copied from an orginal or a copy of a copy? are there other orginal documents other than the one in dobies book mentioning the hiding of a church treasure?anything orginal that would corroborate that priests letter? in one of the priests letters there is mention that the people of tayopa were albinos. have you come across that? i know you are very proud and defensive of your find ,im only trying to help .any good hypothesis will stand up to a good agrument,right? all the best and start digging ,soon