The history of Tayopa

[Oroblanco]

hi , although i have no personal interest in the tayopa legend ,i have come across the mention of its existence in some of the libraries, over the years.i live in mexico and am fluent in spanish and do research on mining history. maybe something here will be of help to others with their search. intresting reading might be for some// "cronicas e historia religiosa de la provincia de la compania de jesus de mexico en nueva espana"// and "historia de los triunfos de nuestra fe entre gentes las mas barbaras y fueras del nuevo orbe" //both written by andres perez de rivas printed in madrid in 1645 on file // there is mention of tayopa (spelled teopa for the first hundred years or so ) the "e" would have the "a" sound in spanish. and then the spelling varies until tayopa was settled for as the acceptable spelling in modern new world spanish. this transgression to a more comfortable and visually pleasing appearance to the word is common in new world languages especially trying to create a spelling for a never before written indigenous word. father pedro mendez// fr tomas basilio// and fr francisco olinano were the first priests to write back to mexico city with reports on the first missions in la provincia de ostimuri 1590-1640// fr tomas basilio was rector there for 20 years// all of them mention visiting teopa on occasion in their letters // also there is a somewhat recently written book "la tarasca maravillosa y el prodigioso tesoro de tayopa" by alfonso lopez riesgo, available online. la tarasca is another famous lost mine , the book covers two different lost treasures in the state of sonora. i havent read the book but alfonso lopez in a recognized historian.and it should be lighter reading. i know there are those who will disagree feverously, and i mentioned in my comments sometime back , but for mexican historians the tayopa mission has never been lost, it is documented as having existed and its ruins even listed on modern maps (in the geographically correct place),and yes, theres at least three places that are named tayopa ,and one coinsides precisely with the map in dobies book. i hope someone one day will find this lost treasure,but up til now in my view the only person who has made money off of the tayopa legend was frank dobie, a very clever man.

Hola amigos,
LilOrphanAnnie it is good to see you posting again. I find it interesting that Dobie wrote, history is silent on Tayopa, yet the fact is history is not silent at all, just takes a bit of detective work to find it. Did Dobie fail to find any mention in the sources he used, or did he simply not look in every possible place, or was he holding something back? I would like to hear your view on this issue.

<lilorphanannie also wrote>

there is also a report written in the 1860s of a german mining company visiting tayopa and identifying the group of mines,reporting their condition, as well as giving the geographic cordinates for tayopa.

I would love to see any further details you can recall on this report, thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening O annie: You posted -> so we need first hand sources, not second or third. we need ship manifests ,map cordinates,etc. in the case of tayopa as a jesuit mission, we need church records ,mining records.hopefully you have some unknown clue ,or additional map or orginal letter to guide you,that not public knowledge. public
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Naturally, if there was any available knowledge of Tayopa it would have been found in the 1700 - 1800, not still lost until recently. May I suggest that you read about Phelps Dodge looking for Tayopa even in the early 1900"s. I am sure their geologists / prospectors have looked at all available data for the company before embarking upon a campaign to find it.
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You posted -->there is also a report written in the 1860s of a german mining company visiting tayopa and identifying the group of mines,reporting their condition, as well as giving the geographic cordinates for tayopa.
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May I ask you to post that report?
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You posted -->know where the tayopa site where your claims are ,are located. the information is in their map and exploration files ,they got the map for me.the tayopa site adam westwood visited is also documented clearly,on another map.
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Again may I ask you to post this map? As far as my claims go, I have made no secret of them.
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You posted -->i have visited el cerro prieto the site of la tarasca as well as probably several hundred other geologists over time, its not lost either just caved in. if you're up to the walk and jumpimg fences.
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THE La Tarasca is not on the Cerro prieto. Your Tarasca is in plain sight with tons of rusting equipment laying around. Incidentally from my information, your Tarasca was gold, My Tarasca, the legend , was silver. The last time that I was there, there were no fences any where near by.
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You posted --> i also know the gloria pan, arroyo and the gentleman from temoris who has claimed that mine site .
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The last that I checked, it was still free and open for denouncing?? Can you post a bit of details?
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you posted -->but im curious ,the map in dobies book ,has it ever been authenticated?
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I never even thought of using Dobies map. My thinking was that any map published in a popular book had probably been followed by countless searchers, that it had any value ,someone would have found it. It was only 'after' finding Tayopa, that I casually decided to see if it could be made to fit -- surprise, It was almost 100% correct.
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You posted -->are there other orginal documents other than the one in dobies book mentioning the hiding of a church treasure?anything orginal that would corroborate that priests letter?
***************
Yes, I have several. Parts of one I have posted in here already, showing the locations and distance from the Capilla to the mines. (Gopher holes in most cases, but rich.)
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You posted -->in one of the priests letters there is mention that the people of tayopa were albinos. have you come across that?
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Nope, they were just Indians and normal Spanish.
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You posted --> i know you are very proud and defensive of your find
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Not really defensive, since I know what I have, or I wouldn't be asking readers to ask me almost anything, except where is 'X".

I enjoyed your post and welcome many more. I do wish that you would post the requested data, including the Expediente no. of the Gentleman in Temoris' denouncement of the Gloria Pan in order to check his coordinates.

Incidentally, Alfonso Riesgo and I were friends. Yes, I am thoroughly aware of his booklet and what is inside of it.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

O Annie if I remember, you had problems getting on the internet, If need be, possibly I can be of some aid. pm me.

As for the rest, do you want some more of the many stories associated with the Tayopa quest, more pictures, stories of explorng etc or whatever??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

O Annie if I remember, you had problems getting on the internet, If need be, possibly I can be of some aid. pm me.

As for the rest, do you want some more of the many stories associated with the Tayopa quest, more pictures, stories of explorng etc or whatever??

Don Jose de La Mancha

Comment from peanut gallery: YES, please do!

 

[Infosponge]

Greetings LilOrphanAnnie,

You have been very informative, thank you for sharing.

I know this is a bit of topic, but I was wondering if you ever came across any documents or map to the Jesuit treasure of Bamoa during your research?

Thank you in advance.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[Ponchosportal]

"As for the rest, do you want some more of the many stories associated with the Tayopa quest, more pictures, stories of explorng etc or whatever??

Don Jose de La Mancha"


LOL absolutely YES!!

Maybe if possible, photos of Tayopa mines and ore samples, depiction of Jesuit missions path/location from Tayopa to Gulf of California, other ore bodies/placers explored/discoverd/located in route to Tayopa, and of course more "of the many stories associated with the Tayopa quest, more pictures, stories of explorng etc or whatever??"

What ever you would like to tell us about and feel comfortable with would be greatly appreciated!

Muchas gracias amigo!
ponchosportal

 

[lilorphanannie]

hi ,first of all ,id like to respond to don jose ,and with all due respect , i see that you are questioning almost all of the comments i have made about my experience in researching and being associated with others here in mexico in their treasure searches ,especially the more well known ones such as tayopa ,el naranjal ,san jose de gloria pan, and la tarasca. from the beginning i thought it might be enlightening to present a perspective from someone having access to information available here in mexico. since i am not actively pursuing any of those lost treasures, but had come across information on some of them,as i continue my reasearch on my work of mexican mining history, now in excess of 600 pages ,i thought id volunteer that information, not realizing id have to justify or document any of it to someones satisfaction. but i can guarantee you that my word is good and if i need to i can document everything ive written on this site. i will elaborate a little here off the top of my head as i dont have those boxes of papers here in front of me ,nor do i have the time to document it for for your satisfaction. as you already 'know what you have" i would pay no attention someone like me . i can only tell you that there is first hand information available about tayopa ,jesuit priests letters sent back to jesuit headquarters in mexico city ,and in some of them the people were refered to as albinos. not indios nor gente de razon, but albinos not revelant but curious, i wanted to see if you recognized it.to get into info like that you will have to go to mexico city and spend some time. i can tell you that a mining company visited tayopa in @ 1860s and wrote a report of their findings , im sorry now as i recall they werent german but reported that the mines were flooded and that the silver was essentially locked up in the ore in a way that made mining costly and suggested a new german technology (for that time period)for extraction. that info was found in the special collections section of the library in the university of arizona. i have the call number written down somewhere. i also have maps showing tayopa in plain print.im sorry but i do have them. it will take you ,or anyone else right to "your tayopa". my effort to find the tayopa ,"your tayopa" took all of four days" . i got mine,the topographical one ,also have access to another one ,held privately ,but was able to draw a rough copy. i dont have a computer ,and really dont want one, but i gave one map to a friend yesterday and asked them to scan it for me and send it to my email .if some one will show me how to post it here i will do so. i know the la tarasca mine ,the modern one you speak of , i was taken on a group tour with young graduating geologists in the late 80's led by a member of university , we spent the whole weekend in the area and those leading the group took up to the area of la pima ,la tarasca and showed us what they said was la pima(caved) and the tarasca outcropping. i may have not been clear as the main interest was the area of cerro prieto,in calling it cerro prieto to mislead anyone, and yes there were fences ,i was an invited visitor, it was a recreational trip and i did not take notes.in my view it would take too much money, and theres nothing there to warrant the expenditure. i must be close to right on that as you know there are over 60 foreign mining companies in sonora state and noone has decided to take a stab at it yet. years later i came across a small paragraph about la tarasca and la pima dictated by a yaqui to a mexican ,this was in the 1800's .i transcribed those comments and have it filed away somewhere. as for the person that claims to have possession of the original gloria pan workings. im sure you will say he's in the wrong place, although he's in the same arroyo , and its definitely an old mine workings ,very interesting, i have not visited it ,but the perrito minero who surveyed the claim took pictures ad told me about it in detail.his claim is called the gloria pan ,just as yours is called tayopa ,by the way there are three claims named tayopa ,the ones in your wifes name ,those beside your claims and a very interesting tayopa claim some 400 yards from the guaynopa claims ,both claims are held by a group of four really nice prospectors from madera ,chihuahua.i am not sure but have the understanding that phelps dodge explored the group of silver mines known as la cienega in a narrow valley just west of a ranch named guadalupe de tayopa ,also easily located on modern topos also found in a topographical nameplace site here on the net ,with coordinates given ,and they are correct.i also have one,the map that is. this group of mines is popularly believed by most mexican researchers to be the tayopa, i really cant say, but the mines are significant by todays standards and the tayopa mission ruins ,these are the ones on record in the lists of missions as taypoa are in a small valley due east. this is the tayopa i believe adam westwood visited. it is also listed in a book on missions of mexico ,found in the utep library ,special collections ,in el paso, you can drive right to it if you have four wheel drive. once again ,im not looking for treasure, these findings were /are part of what ive come across in my research trying to compile a definitive reasearch of mexican mining history. there is nothing to refute, nothing to prove ,im just stating my experiences and observations as they were revealed to me.im sorry they dont fit in with yours. another interesting thought in just south of huachinera,sonora is an abanbonded silver mine the locals swear is tayopa. silver bars were found there . tayopa crudely stamped into the surface. did anybody see them for sale on the internet,say @ 8 years ago? i did. offered at an antiquities auction .go figure. as for infosponge, i read some good information on the bamoa mission. ill try to find it for you.

 

[Infosponge]

Good morning Lilorphanannie,

Great post! I get the distinct impression you're writing a book about the history of mining in Mexico, if not, you should be. I look forward to reading more of your posts.

Thanks again, and have a great day!

Infosponge

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Buenas Dias MI amigo Orphan Annie: I would love to have a looong coffee session with you. You do have tons of extremely interesting data. I want you to understand that in 'no way' am i trying to put you on the spot, but basically clarifying the common data that we have..

On the arroyo Gloria Pan, and vicinity, there are several old mines, since it is an extension of the LLuvia de Oro zone, but they are not the Gloria Pan. 'It' was still sealed when I last left it. However that doesn't mean that it wasn't later discovered. What I did others can do also.

My friend Don Borst, now deceased, attempted to work a section in the upper area of the Arroyo. As you go up it makes a radical 90 turn North towards La Cienaguita. This is where he constructed a small dam and a rock house. His target area was on the west side, towards the LLuvia de Oro or Augustin Bacera's ranch.

On my last trip, an Indian told me that as you go up the arroyo, you will notice a small hill that looks like an old type sombrero. Between that, and the right side, is a vertical shaft. He had found it because one of his cows had broken through the covering. After freeing
the cow, he rebuilt the cover to prevent losing any of his cattle.

Augustin lived a short ways up from the junction of the arroyo that comes down from the LLuvia de Oro and the Gloria Pan. There is an interesting story there. Many years before, 1600 - 1700's ?, there had been a earth quake after a long, particularly wet season. A large section of the western mt slid down forming a dam for the drainage of both the Lluvia de Oro arroyo and the Grloria pan. It eventually formed a large lake. As the later overflow ran down to the Fuerte just below Tubares, it carried oranges from the Jesuit ? orchards. Oro can guess what the area was then called, yep, 'El Naranjal'. The dam has long since been broached and it is difficult to see where it had been now.

High up on the Eastern side, on a ledge, is the figure of a man with an outstretched hand pointing towards the Western side. Hmm was he placed there before or after the land slide ??

Also, if you go there, on the crest of the ridge to the north of the junction of the two arroyos, they were starting to construct a capilla in the name of one of the Priests that was killed in one of the revolutions. I found a no of the square blocks that had been cut for the base of the walls.

The new Capilla (church) was to be used for better communication between Tubares and Guasapares by the Jesuits. They used the sunlight in the day and fire at night. Heliograph technique.

Chester Miller started to develop a placer operation East of La Cienguita.

We, you, I, and your friend in Temoris, could talk for hrs on that area. This would include the mines on the south side of the rio Fuerte, as well as data still unknown to the present owners of the Lluvia de Oro.

Next, let's jump to the La Tarasca and las Pimas.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Shall I tell you of swimming with the giant serpent in front of Tubares while crossing the river?

p.p.s. If you can make a few $$ off of any of my information, feel free to do so with my blessings.

 

[Ponchosportal]

This thread is off the chart!!

 

[lilorphanannie]

hi to all. well, i had a friend go to an cafe internet place and scan a portion of a topographical map showing clearly the word tayopa (this is don joses tayopa),which in the map legend lists as an abandonded site . i hope to figure out how to pass it from my email to this post ,if anyone knows how ,and would like to give me some instructions ill try to send it asap. if that works i may send others. once again im not treasure hunter in the traditional sense ,i recently devote as much of my free time as possible identifying mine dumps that have value, which i consider treasures in themselves,much easier to find. there are dumps running 500 to 1000 dollars per ton, of free milling gold,completely abandonded long forgotten. //oh ,here are the directions to, i dont know what don jose would call it ,but we can say the second tayopa, go to yecora ,then take the road north to la cueva ,continue on to agua blanca ,then to el trigo de cocorepe to la iglesia then to yerbabuena (the orginal name for yerbabuena was ostimuri) to la cieneguita (where the mines are at) on to la amargosa and finally tayopa where ruins are at. all of the names i just wrote are little settlements (ranchos) . you will need four wheel drive and someone to accompany you there ,who is from the area. this tayopa, also appears on modern topos. i guess i could add quite a bit of detail on these sites and others but its a whole lot to write. as for info on bamoa for infosponge. i would suggest reading (if you havent already) 'the treasure of the sangre de cristos by arthur l. campa. this treasure book is different from others in that dr campa is probably one of the most respected historians there is on southwest hispanic culture , and the stories in the book and his firsthand account of his experiences , one of the chapetrs is about bamoa, i cant remenber exactly ,but i think his wifes family was from bamoa and they returned there to look for the treasure. i think dr campo might still be living ,if so id look him up and give him a call. the bamoa silver , is documented no doubt. id love to see someone go in there with ground penetrating radar, and the search area is not large, only a lot of houses built up in the search area.

 

[Tank69]

I'm gonna throw a brain fart in here just to see what you think ....I know its been a couple hundred years since the road to the mission was used but wouldnt have been used by more than those in the mission .....The mormon trail was used basicly once an theres still plenty of deep tracks left ......so the thought crossed my mind a road used for 43 years by mission people an by others coming or going threw the area there might be traces of it left ........just a thought .



Tank

 

[Infosponge]

Good evening Lilorphanannie,

Thanks for the kind advice. I already have Dr. Campa's book, if I'm not mistaken I believe he passed away in 1978. I've been trying to acquire a copy of the document mentioned in his book, in order to compare it with other known documents. I was hoping that maybe you had a copy, or came across some other original documents during your research.

Thanks again,

Infosponge

 

[lilorphanannie]

here is the map.

 

[lilorphanannie]

well, for those of you that are interested,i just posted (with the help of my sister) a topographical map showing the abandoned site tayopa.the tayopa where joseph currys claims are at. this is a government mapping agency map ,available to the public for about four dollars. @ 20 years ago, i went to the inegi office and asked to see the maps south of yecora and in the area east of mesa campanero, in about 30 minutes i walked out with map. drove to yecora to spend the night. proceeded to a rancho asked for directions and went to taypoa, the whole adventure took @7days we went to two sites) and cost @ 400 dollars. everyone i asked knew where the site was located and it coincided perfectly with dobies info and the topographical map. i went there because someone hired me to take them there .and later to the other tayopa.it was a guy from arizona ,we met in yecora ,he had hand drawn maps,of tayopa but couldnt place it .the other tayopa also easily accesible and found on maps just like this one.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Annie: I have asked openly for anyone to ask away. However to answer questions sometimes I have to clear up asumptions or data that is incorrect or faulted in any way. This is in no way an insult to anyone, but simply answering the question.

K To start, you posted -> that you had the data on the site that the Gerrmans had in the 1800's and also the one that Westwood had I asked you to please post them, not in an argumentive mood, but to add to my information base. My Tayopa, I obviously knew.


You posted -->i dont know what don jose would call it ,but we can say the second tayopa, go to yecora ,then take the road north to la cueva ,continue on to agua blanca ,then to el trigo de cocorepe to la iglesia then to yerbabuena (the orginal name for yerbabuena was ostimuri) to la cieneguita (where the mines are at) on to la amargosa and finally tayopa where ruins are at
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HI, see first post on South western Chih. for O Annies Tayopa no. 2 NW of Yecora.

La Trindad was actually Tayopa no. 2 , It is now called --> DIOS Padre --> http://www.goldandsilvermines.com/diosp.htm =========================================================================================

Annie posted --> a topographical map showing the abandoned site tayopa.the tayopa where joseph currys claims are at. this is a government mapping agency map ,available to the public for about four dollars. @ 20 years ago, i went to the inegi office and asked to see the maps south of yecora and in the area east of mesa campanero, in about 30 minutes i walked out with map
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If you had had time to read all of the past posts, You would have seen that map had been posted in here in 2007, or there abouts. See first posted map
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You posted -->everyone i asked knew where the site was located and it coincided perfectly with dobies info and the topographical map.
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Who are everyone? May I ask where and how does it coincide?
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You posted > the other tayopa also easily accesible and found on maps just like this one.
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May I ask you to please show the other one to me?

Side thingie, Your topo map is incorrect in that Talayotes is wrong, that is Rebaje. The actual Talayotes lies north east from this one. They apparently haven't corrected their mistake. It is interesting to see that they are now using bar code data on the topos.

On the heavy lines which apparently represent roads, the one going off to the right is not a road, but a line of no identification photographically. The other one going to Rebaje (Talayote) is correct, it passes above the Headquarters down in the little valley, but stops at Rebaje.

Which route did you take to get to the Tayopa shown on your topo?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good morning Tank, you posted --> so the thought crossed my mind a road used for 43 years by mission people an by others coming or going threw the area there might be traces of it left ........just a thought
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A very good thought. Yes the main trail in the rainy season, north to Yecora, etc. passes just north of Tayopa. This is where the famous Grizz lived. See added post for more reference on it. This trail is still being used, although a new road passing by Barbaroccos is being built.

In the days of Tayopa, it was not used very much hence Tayopa was effectively kept hidden.

civilization BAH !

More questions my friend.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning Annie: I was sent an anonymous pm suggesting that I was a bit of an egotist or know it all. On the contrary, I know how much is still to be filled in and have welcomed, encouraged all suggestions and criticisms. I have used those that are applicable, and in turn attempted to correct those that were posted in good faith, but were incorrect. This is wrong?.

The existing data when I started, was Dobie's story, the disclaimed letter, and The instructions on the 7 Th of March from the Cerro de La Campana. " 10 days in the direction of the setting sun will take you to Tayopa". That still leaves you with a potential of few thousand sq miles to search, in just about as rough a bit of country as is found in the world.

Regarding Tayopa and it's story, I presume that you know that directly, and indirectly, I am responsible for 'most' of the present data on Tayopa, the Jesuit Plot to take North America away from Spain, and how they clandestinely moved the metal across the north of Mexico to below Matamorros for trans shipment to Rome, etc. I have freely shared this data.

I have encouraged search for Tayopa no 1

In other words I do not believe that I am an egotistical / know it all, but then again, do we ever have an unbiased opinion or view of ourselves??
If I seem to get out of line, call me on it. It would be appreciated.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[lilorphanannie]

ok don jose ,i apologize if i was out of line ,i really do.. the only thing i did ,was report that, i myself went to tayopa, and i went there using the topographical map that i posted. it satisfied me and the others who went along. when i saw this long drawn out story of what you say you did to finally find the place. i felt i had something to offer to the readers ,showing them how easy it is to get there. when i mentioned in earlier posts that i used modern topos to go to tayopa ,you asked if could i please show them to you. and thats what i did.there is no doubt in my mind we were at the right place. i wanted to show the readers that its not necessary to go to cerro minaca on a certain day and hike 10 days toward the setting sun. or go to nuri and hike up the chino gulch. only go to the state mining office and ask for directions,then buy a map and go. its a lot easier and a lot faster and it takes you to the same place. secondly you say you have proof and posession of information available to no one else ,thats great ,im happy for you. but in a proof is only a hypothesis or a theory until you have in this case eliminated all possibilities that anyone else could or does have any of the private information you posess or any other revelant information concerning the tayopa mission and treasure that you dont have. i doubt that you have been able to exaust that theory enough to be able to call it a fact. and im pertty sure someone might have info on the tayopa treasure that you dont have, thats just a hunch i have. i dont mind being corrected at all ,im only telling the viewers how i went to tayopa, i dont see how you can correct me on that as you werent on the trip.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola my new friend O Annie: Since I do have data that no-one else has - since I developed them, I know this hehhe - I certainly cannot fault anyone for asking questions or to have a bit of doubt. Obviously I simply cannot post them. However feel free to ask me what ever you wish, keeping in mind, that to a point I can be quite open.

I am looking forward to your posts since you undoubtedly have a fascinating book of information, and I know intimately the areas that you have so far spoken of..

Hasta Don Jose de La Mancha