The Coconut Fibers are the Key to this hunt

[lokiblossom]

I asked you if you could post some info about the move to Annapolis Basin, but still waiting.....

Last time I heard from you it was because of "bad fishing"!...Loki

 

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[Eldo]

Last time I heard from you it was because of "bad fishing"!...Loki

Dont be upset, you basically only said that you proved your theory because French Fishermen showed up around the Island........in the later years?

Would it be of any surprise if I told you that the French had actually landed and explored this area? Samuel Champlain was around the area in 1609. He even marked the island on their map as the Letter V.......

Coincidentally there was a pier found there that had a V carved into it........along Smith's Cove

 

[New Gold]

Channelled Salt Terrace Method
in the article it claims the Oak Island method is very similar to the Channelled Salt Terrace Method used for 100's of years in Japan.

* I will be honest here and say I have not looked into the differences between the 2 or even how the operation works other then the basic goal they were trying to accomplish.

BUT check it out for yourself .......research it and if you find huge differences or problems I am sure others here would also like to know.

I read the article uzzard. I found a few problems.

First, the time period doesn't fit if the coconut fibres are really from the fourteenth century.

Secondly, this method of collecting salt would be unfeasible in the Nova Scotian climate. The maritimes are notoriously rainy, in fact except for a few weeks in the summer you can depend on rain four days a week.

They would have been better off boiling off plain seawater. Why build drains to collect extra concentrated sea water if the rain is constantly going to be reversing the process?

A roof made of tarps is a nice idea but the wind is usually pretty bad too so good luck keeping the water out.

Thirdly the coir fibres would filter out some of the salt, again reducing the efficiency of this process.

This proposed method of harvesting salt requires quick evaporation in order to be efficient. You are dealing with an island that is surrounded by weather 70% of the time. How many nice sunny days have you seen on the show so far?

It is always cold, foggy and wet in this area.

This design of box drains has never been used historically to collect salt. The sand is the key to the design used by the japanese. The sand is used to COLLECT the salt.

Building drains below the sand would be counter productive. As sea water is already saturated with salt it can only collect some of the salt in the sand.

The japanese would surely have invented a similar system if it was ideal? All the salt gets locked up in the sand, which is why they would transport the sand itself to the boil-off location.

 

[lokiblossom]

Dont be upset, you basically only said that you proved your theory because French Fishermen showed up around the Island........in the later years?

Would it be of any surprise if I told you that the French had actually landed and explored this area? Samuel Champlain was around the area in 1609. He even marked the island on their map as the Letter V.......

Coincidentally there was a pier found there that had a V carved into it........along Smith's Cove

Actually Champlain sailed by Mahone bay In 1604 without even noticing it, on his way back toward Canso he named the neighboring bay after his mother. He actually spent more time in the Annapolis Basin then anywhere else in Nova Scotia.
What I had said was that the Templars left Charing Cross because of French Catholic sailors showing up. Btw, I'm not upset, that was supposed to be a funny.

 

[Robot]

Are many Treasure Hunters on this site also Archaeologists?

As it was found in abundance, there must be plenty of it around. Where is it?

The question comes up many times:
- where is that piece of wood?
- where is that piece of dirt?
- where is that piece of fiber?

Well very few treasure hunters bother to keep items they deem of little worth.

How many treasure hunters have bothered to keep any of today's coke bottles they may have come across, are they not aware what a perfect 300 year old specimen will be worth (just for the return deposit) in the year 2350 ad?

 

[Robot]

Freemasons were "Master Builders"!

just curios, correct me if im wrong... has anyone even proven how somone in the 1300s or even 1600s build those booby trap drain tunnels that feed the money pit. how could someone build something like that back then and be successful without dying. once you dig from land to the sea, it will cave in and drown you. has anyone ever dug in the sand real deep on any beach. once you get down a certain level it fills up with water. this is an island surrounded. so the underlying material at certain depths have to absorb the surrounding sea. just makes sense that when you dig down that deep it will fill with water. maybe the coconut fibers were placed to slow down the absobsion. im far from a treasure hunter, but i do love reading the mysteries. anyways, id love to see some evidence how they could even build them box drain tunnels that deep, that long and come out at sea and live.

The men who built the Cathedrals of Europe and many of the Wonders of the World would have had no problem designing and building the sort of requirements needed for Oak Island.

Our biggest problem with getting to the "Bottom" of this Pit is that the Engineers who have been in charge to date have not allotted the respect due to these ancient Engineer's abilities.

My understanding of the engineering feat to build the shaft and flood tunnels is as follows:

They intended to occur ground water with the digging of the shaft.

That is why they dug the shaft down in excess of what would be needed, to the 230 foot level.

All along they would bail the water out at the bottom, as needed.

Ground water does not flow any where near to the 1000 gal per minute flow of the booby trapped tunnels.

From the higher level ( 155') they started an inclined tunnel up towards the shore to a junction box.

They dug down and created a junction box up by the ocean.

At the Reservoir at the ocean (when the tide was out) they completed the tunnel to the junction box.

With their timing of the tide being out they joined up both tunnels.

These tunnels were completed last after the Treasure was placed up into the Treasure Vault and all the garbage and excess metal and wood placed at the bottom of the shaft.

The shaft was back filled with a sealed membrane placed right before the entrance to these tunnels.

The wooden platforms were placed and sealed to prevent the premature setting off of these traps by the natural shifting of the soil.

 

[New Gold]

The men who built the Cathedrals of Europe and many of the Wonders of the World would have had no problem designing and building the sort of requirements needed for Oak Island.

Our biggest problem with getting to the "Bottom" of this Pit is that the Engineers who have been in charge to date have not allotted the respect due to these ancient Engineer's abilities.

Exactly. Couldn't have put it any better.

 

[rowanns]

Dave Rishar - I hear you, and I'm with you - almost I think. I just posted this: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/o...sland-real-mystery-if-there-even-mystery.html

Are you confirming that today, there is not a shred of evidence that anything we hear in the stories was ever real? I too speculate it was a fabrication from the start. Men following stories by men, either dumb or blinded by the lure of treasure. They dig and invest when their only proof was hearsay. So I'm seeking some evidence that there was ever anything man-made under Oak Island.


On the TV show, their simulation graphics show the Y-shaped drain on the beach that supposedly feeds the "boobytrapped" flood tunnels. Really? Then that whole supposed drain entry would need to be pretty shallow. Take 20 minutes and go dig it up. Am I missing something? Has this already been done, so the "drain" is fact? If the drain is not there, and perhaps has been washed away by hunters and time - well then it shouldn't work anymore. Go dig in the money pit with no fear of flood.

As for the coconuts - Oak Island is upwind of the Gulf Stream (Florida, Caribbean) - so it's no stretch to think over hundreds of years, coconuts washed up on the shores of Oak Island. Especially on the areas where they were supposedly found.

I get what you and Dave are saying. I don't agree with you mind you, but I get it! I do believe that it would be a very big stretch indeed to think that coconuts washed up on the shores of Oak Island by factoring in the Gulf Stream, for it veers to the right much to our climatic grief. The carbon dating of the fibres found, even if one accepts a deviancy of 500 years due to salt water submersion, would still push the date into a realm that would be a historical anomaly according to the written historical record

 

[rowanns]

Actually Champlain sailed by Mahone bay In 1604 without even noticing it, on his way back toward Canso he named the neighboring bay after his mother. He actually spent more time in the Annapolis Basin then anywhere else in Nova Scotia.
What I had said was that the Templars left Charing Cross because of French Catholic sailors showing up. Btw, I'm not upset, that was supposed to be a funny.

True, but let's not forget about De Monts and Fort Point just down the coast from Mahone Bay (which is French). It actually is up for debate if Champlain actually did overlook Mahone Bay, but actually was bent on the Bay of Fundy because he knew full well that the Portuguese Fagundes had been there before him and it was therefore easier ground so to speak.

 

[Eldo]

The Coconut Coir Fibers........what were they for/??

Here's a great theory..........Torches for the miners' and ropes for hauling..........braid them for rope, or wrap them around a post for a flaming torch.

Dip it in whale blubber oil and watch it burn for hours........

 

[Dave Rishar]

Playing catchup on here is going to be the death of me! Here we go, then...

Prove how that was done and I'll buy all the other nonexistant finds as a package deal

I'd be impressed if they could merely prove that it was done in the first place. Figuring out how it was done would be an interesting mental exercise, but not one that I'm willing to engage in unless there's actually something there.

Prove how the pyramids were built and I'll give you a kiss.

That one's actually rather easy; unfortunately, others solved the problem before I tackled it. I'll pass on the kiss. They may be interested. You'll have to look around for names and universities. Moving the rock was the easy part; the only confusion here is in figuring out which method that they used. Keeping the base square is a more interesting question, until you consider that as the ruler of an empire you would certainly have access to four lengths of rope and four men of roughly equal proportions; at that point, it's a simple geometrical problem, and not a difficult one at that.

You guys are so funny.......they blew the crap outta the place with dynamite after the original guys documented the dig of the tunnels....

no wonder there are no tubes left.........they blew them up........

some of you are asking for photographic evidence of something that couldn't be photographed, cause the first prints weren't developed 'till 1829, and weren't in use til bout 1860's in NYC....how would there be any other 'Proof' besides the drawings and other written statements

From the first page of the other thread. Pictures were a problem two centuries ago, but they were relatively commonplace in 1966. There were large amounts of coconut fibers and wooden platforms in 1966, so let's see them. People take pictures of their frigging lunches. Asking to see a picture of an historically significant find is not asking for much. Were those pictures misplaced? What about the platforms? Where did the actual physical evidence go?

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=687681&d=1350260057Everyone here is hooked on the thought that it was Templars.......that is more of a 'Rumor' than the speculation about the tunnels

someone started a rumor the tunnels don't exist.......and we spent pages proving they do exist, at least partially, and we have other witness statements that say they do exist as well in document form.

But no pictures, nor physical evidence...just stories. I can prove that Zeus exists on that basis and I'll have more evidence than you to boot.

We also have witness statements that Kidd buried treasure there, supposedly from one of his crewmen. As the pirate theory is not currently in vogue, that one doesn't get discussed these days. Right up until the early part of last century though - you know, when memories were still fresh - that was the only theory.

As for the Templars, a quick perusal of my posts should show you that I'm very much not hooked on them. If anything of historical significance happened at Oak Island, I'm fairly certain that it didn't involve the Templars. (Throw the Icelanders at me if you want to watch me squirm. )

Another point is that, no matter how much coconut fibre was actually on Oak Island, it was there and that is proven.

Acknowledged. What I have pointed out elsewhere is that there are at least two other explanations for how it might have gotten there, assuming that nothing was planted. Coconut fibers do not prove Templar involvement, or Freemason involvement, or even necessarily human involvement by themselves. A large concentration might, but no large concentration has been shown. Take nothing for granted here. If a claim is made, check it out. You'll find that the more extravegant claims are just that - claims.

What I am saying about Scotland is that to prove Templars sailed there in 1307, you must first prove they sailed somewhere. At that point you can then show that was indeed the logical choice, as for one thing the Scottish authorities never arrested any of them although there were known to be 100's of Templar property's in Scotland, and that is only one minor point. There is also physical evidence of Templars escaping there from France. Certainly all Templars did not go to Scotland, many went to Portugal, Spain and other areas. Some simply blended back into the Cistercian Order. It is also a fact that not all Templars knew about the artifacts and where they were going, as with all secret orders there was a select inner circle which included the new Grand Master. Of all of those who escaped France he was the most wanted and yet was never seen or heard from again.

If Templars were not being persecuted in Scotland, what reason was there for them to leave? And if they had no reason to leave, why leave with a treasure? I've detailed in the past just how easy it would be to bury a treasure and maintain a guard on it without anyone knowing in the past, and that was assuming a fairly populated area. There are parts of Scotland that even today are quite desolate. A trip across the water at that time with frequent stops would be hazardous, meaning that the treasure might never even make it to Iceland, never mind to the New World. Why risk it? Not every trip between the continent and Iceland was successful. Not every trip between Iceland and Greenland was successful. Not every trip from Greenland to the mainland was successful. Transoceanic voyages during that era were dangerous, and Lloyd's wasn't around to pay you off if the ship sank.

This is a sticking point with me. If I have something that I don't need, I'm not going to risk losing it, and let's face it...this is pretty risky. And I'm willing to lose it in order that someone else doesn't get it, then I'll properly lose it, and it will be at the bottom of the north Atlantic.

BTW, how come when I post your requested sources you don't acknowledge them?...Loki

Is this directed at me?

 

[lokiblossom]

Playing catchup on here is going to be the death of me! Here we go, then...



I'd be impressed if they could merely prove that it was done in the first place. Figuring out how it was done would be an interesting mental exercise, but not one that I'm willing to engage in unless there's actually something there.



That one's actually rather easy; unfortunately, others solved the problem before I tackled it. I'll pass on the kiss. They may be interested. You'll have to look around for names and universities. Moving the rock was the easy part; the only confusion here is in figuring out which method that they used. Keeping the base square is a more interesting question, until you consider that as the ruler of an empire you would certainly have access to four lengths of rope and four men of roughly equal proportions; at that point, it's a simple geometrical problem, and not a difficult one at that.

From the first page of the other thread. Pictures were a problem two centuries ago, but they were relatively commonplace in 1966. There were large amounts of coconut fibers and wooden platforms in 1966, so let's see them. People take pictures of their frigging lunches. Asking to see a picture of an historically significant find is not asking for much. Were those pictures misplaced? What about the platforms? Where did the actual physical evidence go?



But no pictures, nor physical evidence...just stories. I can prove that Zeus exists on that basis and I'll have more evidence than you to boot.

We also have witness statements that Kidd buried treasure there, supposedly from one of his crewmen. As the pirate theory is not currently in vogue, that one doesn't get discussed these days. Right up until the early part of last century though - you know, when memories were still fresh - that was the only theory.

As for the Templars, a quick perusal of my posts should show you that I'm very much not hooked on them. If anything of historical significance happened at Oak Island, I'm fairly certain that it didn't involve the Templars. (Throw the Icelanders at me if you want to watch me squirm. )



Acknowledged. What I have pointed out elsewhere is that there are at least two other explanations for how it might have gotten there, assuming that nothing was planted. Coconut fibers do not prove Templar involvement, or Freemason involvement, or even necessarily human involvement by themselves. A large concentration might, but no large concentration has been shown. Take nothing for granted here. If a claim is made, check it out. You'll find that the more extravegant claims are just that - claims.



If Templars were not being persecuted in Scotland, what reason was there for them to leave? And if they had no reason to leave, why leave with a treasure? I've detailed in the past just how easy it would be to bury a treasure and maintain a guard on it without anyone knowing in the past, and that was assuming a fairly populated area. There are parts of Scotland that even today are quite desolate. A trip across the water at that time with frequent stops would be hazardous, meaning that the treasure might never even make it to Iceland, never mind to the New World. Why risk it? Not every trip between the continent and Iceland was successful. Not every trip between Iceland and Greenland was successful. Not every trip from Greenland to the mainland was successful. Transoceanic voyages during that era were dangerous, and Lloyd's wasn't around to pay you off if the ship sank.

This is a sticking point with me. If I have something that I don't need, I'm not going to risk losing it, and let's face it...this is pretty risky. And I'm willing to lose it in order that someone else doesn't get it, then I'll properly lose it, and it will be at the bottom of the north Atlantic.



Is this directed at me?

I would like to hear (see) your two explanations as to how coconut fibres dated from before 1400 got to Oak Island!

In the first place we are not talking about only a treasure. During the first couple of decades of the existence of the order they were searching Jerusalem for religious artifacts. Catholics love religious artifacts and there are many of these alleged relics scattered throughout Europe. The Templars were being hunted in most European countries which at the time 1308 did not include Scotland, but they knew it was only a matter of time before it would be back under the authority of the Church so some decided they (mostly a group from the inner circle) would strike out for the Vinland of the Vikings. Many did chose to stay in Scotland though, some even blending into the Priory at Ardchattan. And there is the legend of some Templars helping Robert the Bruce defeat a British force at Bannockburn on June 24,1314.
BTW, this inner circle was responsible for completing DeMolays prediction that both the King and the Pope would die within the year after his own death.
Sure, it was probably a risky voyage, but the Templars had latitude measuring devices, something the Vikings could only guess at. As a matter of fact, it was probably because of a lack of the ability to accurately determine latitude that the Vikings discovered the Canadian coast in the first place....Loki

 

[New Gold]

That one's actually rather easy; unfortunately, others solved the problem before I tackled it. I'll pass on the kiss. They may be interested. You'll have to look around for names and universities. Moving the rock was the easy part; the only confusion here is in figuring out which method that they used. Keeping the base square is a more interesting question, until you consider that as the ruler of an empire you would certainly have access to four lengths of rope and four men of roughly equal proportions; at that point, it's a simple geometrical problem, and not a difficult one at that.

Myself and many others reject the current explanations given with regard to how the pyramids were built by so called experts in the field.

Did you know the great pyramid of Giza is actually eight sided?

It is also perfectly aligned to true north, an architectural feat that is a challenge by modern standards.

It is built with such precision that we would have a very hard time replicating it with modern technology. We are supposed to believe that it was built in twenty years by a bunch of farmers with copper tools?

How can you not be skeptical of that theory Dave? You claim to be very analytical. How can you not see the problems in that story? Is it because you have placed your trust in the established institutions of our time?

Universities do not encourage creative thinking. You are never allowed to stray outside their box. Even when the truth lies outside that box.

There is a high probability that much of our accepted history is a load of crap.

 

[Eldo]

Oh Great Rishar,

don't be angry at us lesser thinkers when we have to tell you something you should already know !

You ask .....how did coconut fibers dating to that time get there Easy, the carbon dating tells you 1400 so that's when the tree produced them.......they sat around on the islands that produced them until they were collected by the Spanish and others who traveled the West Indies (you can get coconuts on Bermuda and in the Caribbean)

I ask......how long will a dried coconut lay around on an island before it degrades completely........?

Well Dave, Looks like the coconut coir was older than the people who placed it there were at the time....so...guess they can stick around for quite a while on those uninhabited islands they were collected from........even lasting underground without biodegrading for at least 200 yrs in a soggy and salty environment.....thats amazing.......so that means the fibers could last on a dried island where they were collected for almost a 1000 yrs, and I am assuming that to collect that much (3.5 tons) coir they were obviously picking up every one left there on the island, not just the fresh ones....

so its obvious you wont even try to figure out what is going on and you are just asserting a negative point of view on the whole island, or you cannot form any reason out of the facts presented.

i am guessing you haven't found any treasure on the island and this negativity is the resulting frustration??

LOL

 

[Eldo]

The Great Rishar said:

As for the Templars, a quick perusal of my posts should show you that I'm very much not hooked on them. If anything of historical significance happened at Oak Island, I'm fairly certain that it didn't involve the Templars. (Throw the Icelanders at me if you want to watch me squirm.

)

Try this one on for size........

Oak Island was originally discovered by St.Brendan the Navigator, from Ireland, who coined the area.......Hy'Brasil, and later discovered by John Cabot as he made his voyages here as well

Also called O’Breasail, Hi-Brasil, O’Brazil, Hy Breasail, Hy Breasal and Insula Fortunatae (Fortunate Island), the “Isle of the Blessed,”[1] was believed to be a place of plenty and happiness, located somewhere to the west. According to Celtic tradition, “Country O’Breasal lay roughly where the sun touched the horizon or immediately on its other side.” Angellino de Dalorto was the first to map Brasil; in his famous1325 work, he placed the island slightly to the southwest of Ireland, and labeled it Insula de monotonis siue de brazile.[5] In this and his 1339 map (published under the name Dulcert), Dalorto represented Hy Breasail as having “a strikingly round form, often divided by a channel.“

Even into the industrial age, Hy-Brasil was included on maps and charts, apparently, and according to some researchers, appeared in 1776 as “a rock 6 degrees west of the southern point of Ireland,”[7] and continued to be recorded as late as 1865 on British Admiralty charts.

Many famous and not so famous explorers looked for Hy-Brasil. In 1480, John Cabot launched an expedition to search for Brazil,[8] and repeated the effort, apparently, every year from 1490-1497.[9] Although no definitive proof that Cabot’s expeditions reached the island exists, Pedro de Ayala, a Spanish diplomat, reported in 1497 that Cabot told him he made his journey to and from North America with “the men from Bristol who found Brasil.”

The 1600′s had a wealth of reports about the island. In 1674 a Captain John Nisbet and his crew were in familiar waters off the west coast of Ireland. They were enshrouded in fog. As the fog lifted, they saw that they were close to an island, so anchored in three fathoms of water. According to reports, four crew members took a small boat and landed on the island. They spent a day there before returning laden with gold and silver. They claimed that an old man who lived on the island had given it to them as a gift. When they returned to Ireland, a second ship under the command of Alexander Johnson set out to find the island. According to reports of the time, they too found an hospitable island and returned to confirm the previous report.

 

[lokiblossom]

Oh Great Rishar,

don't be angry at us lesser thinkers when we have to tell you something you should already know !

You ask .....how did coconut fibers dating to that time get there Easy, the carbon dating tells you 1400 so that's when the tree produced them.......they sat around on the islands that produced them until they were collected by the Spanish and others who traveled the West Indies (you can get coconuts on Bermuda and in the Caribbean)

I ask......how long will a dried coconut lay around on an island before it degrades completely........?

Well Dave, Looks like the coconut coir was older than the people who placed it there were at the time....so...guess they can stick around for quite a while on those uninhabited islands they were collected from........even lasting underground without biodegrading for at least 200 yrs in a soggy and salty environment.....thats amazing.......so that means the fibers could last on a dried island where they were collected for almost a 1000 yrs, and I am assuming that to collect that much (3.5 tons) coir they were obviously picking up every one left there on the island, not just the fresh ones....
so its obvious you wont even try to figure out what is going on and you are just asserting a negative point of view on the whole island, or you cannot form any reason out of the facts presented.
i am guessing you haven't found any treasure on the island and this negativity is the resulting frustration??
LOL

A couple of problems here, first the dating is from 1260 to 1400 and coconuts did not exist in Bermuda or the West Indies (which is part of the Caribbean) during this time period. As a matter of fact, they didn't exist anywhere in the Atlantic Basin until after 1500 AD when they were first introduced to the Atlantic by Portuguese sailors in 1500....Loki

 

[Eldo]

To assume that Loki is the same as assuming that the Tomato is native to Italy because they make pasta.

Coconuts were all in and throughout these islands before you claim that they were brought here by the Spanish.

I dont think that the Spanish just dropped a few seeds and they pollinated the entire Caribbean...

nice try though.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coconut#mediaviewer/File:Coconut_distribution.png

 

[lokiblossom]

To assume that Loki is the same as assuming that the Tomato is native to Italy because they make pasta.

Coconuts were all in and throughout these islands before you claim that they were brought here by the Spanish.

I dont think that the Spanish just dropped a few seeds and they pollinated the entire Caribbean...

nice try though.......

Coconut - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your research is quite lacking. I could explain how to look this up. But just for giggles check out this quote by authors Charles Clement, Daniel Zizumbo-Villarreal, Cecil Brown, Alessandro alves-Pereira and Hugh Harries, in their book "Coconuts in the Americas" published in 2013:
"it has been clearly established that the Portuguese introduced coconuts to the Cape Verde Islands in 1499, and these supplied the Atlantic Coasts and the Caribbean in the 1500s".
Their are several other sources that tell us the same thing btw.

 

[Eldo]

Anyone who researches a coconut this much is really got too much time on their hands.....just for giggles, ill tell you what i know

There were three documented discussions about finding coconuts here when the first explorers arrived,

They documented the fact that they were a different species than that of the Indian Ocean type, that they were more of the type that was found in Polynesia

They classified these coconuts scientifically the same as the Polynesian, saying they must have fallen into the ocean and drifted to these islands via a floating route..

What is funny is that you completely forget the experiments that the legendary Thor Heyerdahl made when traveling this route to prove the migration of these people to the area.

He carried coconuts in the saltwater laden outriggers of the lower portions of his boat to see if they would survive the salty water and then germinate on the other end. He used this as a basis for his experiments to prove migration from S America to Polynesia

He proved that there was no way to have the same genus of S American Coconuts found on the coast, to have drifted there to the islands. he found that the Native travelers brought them there when they traveled there, PROVING THEY CAME FROM THE S AMERICAN CONTINENT, or they would have found some from both the Indian ocean drifts, and the S American drifts growing in the South Pacific.

So if Thor proved that the coconuts were here when the natives carried them to the Polynesian Islands......then they weren't germinated here by the Spanish were they?

 

[Eldo]

Care to raise the bet a little about whether they were here already, or are you still arguing that the Spanish, and Portuguese brought their Indian Ocean genus of nut here to transplant into the area?

Remember two different kinds of nuts....two different points.....

Your research is quite lacking. I could explain how to look this up

.....LOL thanks but no thanks

try not to compare the two and force yours through degrading others with a speculative book, when a man made a voyage on a Reed Raft to prove you wrong before you even opened your mouth.....LOL

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