The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...

[FEMF]

Kit Carson Scout's where used in Viet Nam.

gotta love that limey sense of humor..kinda like monty python's flying circus

Hello Azdave35
We are not all just blue or red, right is just that, Right. In Viet Nam the Grunt's used Kit Carson Scout's from all over Southeast Asia. My unit used a North Viet Nam, what was called a Chu Hoy? That had changed side's. Lee Von Num.n ?Hope he got away at the end, he was a friend.
FEMF

 

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Treasure of Victoria Peak - Grab it through Amazon!

[nobodie]

Hello, is there anyone reading this?

 

[cactusjumper]

Injunbro

What period of the year take place the traditional ceremony at the Sacred Cave in the Superstitions ?

Marius,

According to the elders at San Carlos, no such ceremonies take place in the Superstitions. On the other hand, there is a wanabe Apache who likes to make that false claim. He has even left his "friends" in camp to join said celebrations, now and again. On the other hand, anything is possible.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

For anyone interested in deeper and earlier investigations into Apache/Spanish and Borderland violence, I found both of these books to be really interesting. The second one is a little dry, but they both delve much deeper into the history of the Apache/Mexico conflict.

https://www.amazon.com/Jar-Severed-Hands-Deportation-Prisoners/dp/0806141778

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0...rd_wg=Rx7ur&psc=1&refRID=21AE1YXDPH4Z6D9GTY9X

 

[Real of Tayopa]

gentlemen, tsk tsk, relax, i and injinbro did.

 

[Injunbro]

Injunbro

What period of the year take place the traditional ceremony at the Sacred Cave in the Superstitions ?

Marius: Late spring. Not going to get any more specific since they don't want spectators, as a 1/2 breed I wasn't allowed to see everything. However, I haven't been in that area in over 35 years & maybe no one is still performing any ceramonies.

Cactusjumper: The inhabitants of San Carlos never attended @ all to my knowledge & only a few traditionalists from Ft. Apache. They won't admit or discuss anything ceremonial w/ an outsider anyway.

 

[Dirt1955]

Hello, is there anyone reading this?

I for one have been following these posts for some time. Part educational and part entertainment. Please, do continue!

 

[azdave35]

I for one have been following these posts for some time. Part educational and part entertainment. Please, do continue!

more fun than a barrel of monkeys...lol

 

[markmar]

Marius,

According to the elders at San Carlos, no such ceremonies take place in the Superstitions. On the other hand, there is a wanabe Apache who likes to make that false claim. He has even left his "friends" in camp to join said celebrations, now and again. On the other hand, anything is possible.

Good luck,

Joe

Joe

I believe how that " wannabe Apache " was talking about another place in the Superstitions . From what I know , he isn't aware about the Sacred Cave .
IMO , not every Apache tribe do ceremonies in the Superstitions . Many are afraid to set foot in the Superstitions , others are afraid to go only to specific places of these mountains , and others have not fear and they go all over these mountains .
Those who have not fear , are the real " key keepers " of the secrets of the Holy places and the " Thunder God's blood " depositories .
These places are known also to the people from the past who became " blood brothers " with those " key keepers " .

 

[Oroblanco]

Democrats are savages? What gave this impression? Was it my scalp-shirt or the scalps decorating our lodge? The arm-bone breastplate, perhaps? The ear necklace? Certainly not my skull-cup, which as anyone knows is NOT for everyday use but only for special occasions after all. Was it my dancing? Any fool knows that these dances are ONLY used to bring rain, call the buffalo herd, heal sickness and injuries, or gain new medicine for use to defeat enemies! I am kidding there, and am a Democrat but voted Republican this time.

As to how this relates to the topic, is there any documented ceremonial use of the Superstition mountains BY the Apaches or Yavapais, during the period of the Apache wars? Thanks in advance;

 

[Injunbro]

As to how this relates to the topic, is there any documented ceremonial use of the Superstition mountains BY the Apaches or Yavapais, during the period of the Apache wars?

About as much "documented" that Jesus was born on Christmas day or photos of George Washington or documents proving I went to Church this morning or...

 

[azdave35]

Democrats are savages? What gave this impression? Was it my scalp-shirt or the scalps decorating our lodge? The arm-bone breastplate, perhaps? The ear necklace? Certainly not my skull-cup, which as anyone knows is NOT for everyday use but only for special occasions after all. Was it my dancing? Any fool knows that these dances are ONLY used to bring rain, call the buffalo herd, heal sickness and injuries, or gain new medicine for use to defeat enemies! I am kidding there, and am a Democrat but voted Republican this time.

As to how this relates to the topic, is there any documented ceremonial use of the Superstition mountains BY the Apaches or Yavapais, during the period of the Apache wars? Thanks in advance;

ear necklace...my friends uncle had one he made from ears he got in vietnam.....dont ask how he got them...lol

 

[cactusjumper]

Marius: Late spring. Not going to get any more specific since they don't want spectators, as a 1/2 breed I wasn't allowed to see everything. However, I haven't been in that area in over 35 years & maybe no one is still performing any ceramonies.

Cactusjumper: The inhabitants of San Carlos never attended @ all to my knowledge & only a few traditionalists from Ft. Apache. They won't admit or discuss anything ceremonial w/ an outsider anyway.

Injunbro,

That is how I understand things to be as well. Do the people at Fort Apache/White Mountain differentiate themselves by the different bands that live there, or have they just adopted the White Mountain Apache name?

It's good to have you posting here, as there is great interest in the Western Apache by many of our members.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

ear necklace...my friends uncle had one he made from ears he got in vietnam.....dont ask how he got them...lol

I would presume he got his the same way I got mine.

Injunbro wrote

About as much "documented" that Jesus was born on Christmas day or photos of George Washington or documents proving I went to Church this morning or...

Perhaps my question is misunderstood - by "documented" I do not mean that Apaches wrote down and signed papers when they held ceremonies. What I am referring to is any record, by anyone (most likely NOT Apaches) that had witnessed, or heard, found clear traces from, ceremonies done by Apaches in the Superstitions. An example would be an Army scout report that found a medicine wheel that had recently been used, Apache markers left etc. I know of some things found like the stash of arrowheads, another of sandals etc but these may not be Apache at all.

 

[cactusjumper]

I would presume he got his the same way I got mine.

Injunbro wrote


Perhaps my question is misunderstood - by "documented" I do not mean that Apaches wrote down and signed papers when they held ceremonies. What I am referring to is any record, by anyone (most likely NOT Apaches) that had witnessed, or heard, found clear traces from, ceremonies done by Apaches in the Superstitions. An example would be an Army scout report that found a medicine wheel that had recently been used, Apache markers left etc. I know of some things found like the stash of arrowheads, another of sandals etc but these may not be Apache at all.

Roy,

"The Diaries Of John Gregory Bourke" contain notes of their travels through the Superstitions and close to "Weaver's Needle". I don't believe he ever mentions finding ceremonial sites or, more specifically, any medicine wheels.

While I have seen such things, I believe them all to be modern-day fakes. Some artifacts have been described to me, but they were likely made by the person describing what he had "found" or been "shown". That person has claimed he was writing a book, and he has been known to fabricate Apache "artifacts". Many well known Dutch Hunter's have "manufactured" Indian and "Spanish mining signs" in front of reliable witnesses while traveling in the Superstitions.

There are a number of authors who have written that they were allowed to witness Apache "ceremonies". I don't doubt their accounts because of the accompanying story. Any stories of Apache in the Superstitions, other than a few Tonto, is suspect for me. The Tonto stayed, primarily, on the north side of the Salt River. That does not mean they did not visit the Superstitions. Such "evidence" is very hard to find. I have looked for years.

Hope all is well.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Injunbro]

Injunbro,

That is how I understand things to be as well. Do the people at Fort Apache/White Mountain differentiate themselves by the different bands that live there, or have they just adopted the White Mountain Apache name?

It's good to have you posting here, as there is great interest in the Western Apache by many of our members.

Take care,

Joe

The Apaches @ Ft. Apache are like everyone everywhere, some claim all their heritage, some claim little or nothing. I'm always troubled by those who seem to have no connection whatsoever to their past, so much is lost. I'm not traditional but a Christian but have great respect for some of the old methods of healing, getting life in balance (hozho), etc.. My family hasn't lived on a Rez in 3 generations, although some of my relatives do. Sorry if that seems like a non-answer but Apaches are as diverse as any other group.

 

[Injunbro]

Perhaps my question is misunderstood - by "documented" I do not mean that Apaches wrote down and signed papers when they held ceremonies. What I am referring to is any record, by anyone (most likely NOT Apaches) that had witnessed, or heard, found clear traces from, ceremonies done by Apaches in the Superstitions. An example would be an Army scout report that found a medicine wheel that had recently been used, Apache markers left etc. I know of some things found like the stash of arrowheads, another of sandals etc but these may not be Apache at all.

As far as I know there aren't any documentation by anyone, if there was the Traditionalists weren't doing their job keeping sacred things private. As a halfbreed I was never allowed to see everything but was trusted enough to be a 'guard'. As soon as outsiders get involved things get contaminated. For example the Hopi Smoki ceremonies performed by well-meaning but totally wrong Whites in Prescott. They intended to keep a tradition from being lost but got it all wrong, today the Hopis participate in a version they deem ok.
I think it was catusjumper who mentioned a "wannabe Apache" who was involved w/ some ceremonies... not sure who he is (or care) but there have been Whites, other Indians & even Mexicans who joined w/ Apaches for many years, for example Mickey Free, Tom Horn (had a daughter by an Apache woman), Zeb Streeter & a lot more. IMHO there are no purebloods of any kind anywhere (Moses 2nd wife was Ethiopian for example), crossbreeds are nothing new.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

"The Diaries Of John Gregory Bourke" contain notes of their travels through the Superstitions and close to "Weaver's Needle". I don't believe he ever mentions finding ceremonial sites or, more specifically, any medicine wheels.

While I have seen such things, I believe them all to be modern-day fakes. Some artifacts have been described to me, but they were likely made by the person describing what he had "found" or been "shown". That person has claimed he was writing a book, and he has been known to fabricate Apache "artifacts". Many well known Dutch Hunter's have "manufactured" Indian and "Spanish mining signs" in front of reliable witnesses while traveling in the Superstitions.

There are a number of authors who have written that they were allowed to witness Apache "ceremonies". I don't doubt their accounts because of the accompanying story. Any stories of Apache in the Superstitions, other than a few Tonto, is suspect for me. The Tonto stayed, primarily, on the north side of the Salt River. That does not mean they did not visit the Superstitions. Such "evidence" is very hard to find. I have looked for years.

Hope all is well.

Take care,

Joe

Thanks Joe - I do not own a set of Bourke's diaries, which as you know are quite voluminous and spendy ($50 starting prices for used copies) and even these do not cover the entire collection. I do not have the time or budget to research Bourke's entire writings, have other 'irons in the fire' that demand time and money. I do appreciate the tip, really am just curious if there has been any proof to back the assertions of the Superstitions ever having been some kind of 'sacred grounds' for the Apaches. I have seen a number of instances where Apaches were using the region as an ambush site, or were traversing it (even in Dutchman lore) and murders etc especially in the eastern part. But as for the Superstitions being some kind of holy burial grounds, nothing so far.


Injunbro wrote

As far as I know there aren't any documentation by anyone, if there was the Traditionalists weren't doing their job keeping sacred things private. As a halfbreed I was never allowed to see everything but was trusted enough to be a 'guard'. As soon as outsiders get involved things get contaminated. For example the Hopi Smoki ceremonies performed by well-meaning but totally wrong Whites in Prescott. They intended to keep a tradition from being lost but got it all wrong, today the Hopis participate in a version they deem ok.
I think it was catusjumper who mentioned a "wannabe Apache" who was involved w/ some ceremonies... not sure who he is (or care) but there have been Whites, other Indians & even Mexicans who joined w/ Apaches for many years, for example Mickey Free, Tom Horn (had a daughter by an Apache woman), Zeb Streeter & a lot more. IMHO there are no purebloods of any kind anywhere (Moses 2nd wife was Ethiopian for example), crossbreeds are nothing new.

Agreed on the whole "pure blood" thing - if most Americans were to research their own family trees, we would soon start to call ourselves the Heinz 57 people. Also this whole idea of 'pure blood' Indians, is directly from a racist policy instituted by the US government, with an eye to keep treaty annuity payments to a minimum and restrict or limit the number of people listed as belonging to Amerindian tribes. As far as I can determine, this idea of a 'pure blood' member of any tribe <or people for that matter>, is not the way the tribes viewed it at all; virtually anyone of any ethnicity could become adopted into the tribe, or via marriage etc and were seen as full fledged members of the tribe. Anyway thank you for the reply, have been suspicious of this modern aura being assigned to the Superstition mountains as an Apache holy burial grounds etc.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Anyway thank you for the reply, have been suspicious of this modern aura being assigned to the Superstition mountains as an Apache holy burial grounds etc."

As I understand it, the Apache of old did not have a single (1) "burial ground". Once someone was dead, they had no desire to visit their burial site. They were even reluctant to speak the dead person's name. Their favorite horse was killed, and all of their personal belongings were burned. Perhaps things have changed, but many chapters have been written about Apache burial practices and their feelings about death.

The Apache will tell you to be very cautious about delving into their religion and beliefs. If you get too deep into those kinds of things, their god's will be angered and will strike out at you. Many of them believe that's exactly what killed Grenville Goodwin.

Until I see some proof that any of the Apache bands practice secret ceremonies in the Superstitions, I will continue to believe it's (primarily) the work of our wannabe Apache member. I will, for sure, buy his book, assuming it is ever published. When he sticks to accepted history he's got a lot of information to pass on. I will skip the chapters where he prevaricates his own history.

The following picture is a gift from my wannabe Apache friend (?)



I tried to send it back to him, but they refused to take it. Not wishing to have such a bad luck piece that close to me, it's new home is in the city dump.

Take care,

Joe

 

[markmar]

Joe

Is a great honor to have a such gift . The eagle's feathers represent the freedom , the free Spirit , the power , the health , the wisdom .
BTW , I believe the most Apache sacred places are situated in a like " Eagle nest " shape regions .