The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...

[Cubfan64]

I came across a reference that one Apache girl was 'captured' by ranchers/cowboys, and was then adopted by an American teacher who was either teaching or travelling through the Madre mountains. This pair then lived in the States for some time before relocating to Italy. The Apache girl who was now a fully-grown lady remembered the hard and weary times of living the precarious existence in old Mexico. She recalled a tale where her grandmother was forced to strangle a baby to death in order for it to stop crying and thus giving away their location to a passing patrol. She said it was an extremely harsh and unforgivable life where each day could very well be your last. But. She said they were 'free' and that is all that mattered. In truth, she didn't miss the life but recalled a fond memory where her granny went to a lot of trouble to sew her a lovely traditional Apache dress for a special occasion.

The lady died in Italy - in the 1980s I believe - after an accident where she fell and banged her head. When they searched her belongings, guess what they found...?...yep, that dress.

Also came across another story from the 1990s. An ageing Mexican recalled as a child in the 1930s or 1940s, when some Mexicans from his village had gone into the mountains and they had also 'captured' a young Apache girl. They had brought her back to the village and chained her up as some sort of exhibit. The girl was obviously terrified and would lash out at anyone trying to get near her. She refused water, food and any contact. The chap recalled seeing this child who was about the same age as him and feeling terrible sorrow at her plight. She died soon after without making any attempt to communicate. An Apache to the end...

Tragic stories from a tragic time.


IPUK

I'm guessing you already know about these 2 books, and other than reading them I have not verified any of the claims made so I'm not suggesting everything written in them is fact, but if you haven't read them you might find them interesting on the topic of discussion.

They Never Surrendered - by Douglas Meed

The Apache Indians: In Search of the Missing Tribe - by Helge Ingstad

 

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[cactusjumper]

We have made tortillas here ground on a metate & cooked on a bread stone (just to say we did) but generally use a hand crank grinder & frying pan nowadays, it cuts the time down by about 2/3. My wife grows blue corn (got the seed from the Hopis) in her garden & there's plenty of mesquite in our pasture. Corn or mesquite meal mixed w/ hot water so thick you can hardly pour it. Add a bit of salt & dribble it on a hot bread stone or skillet & toasted. This is making me hungry & I'd hit the wife up to make some but she'd make me crank the grinder...

Injunbro,

I know I have told this story before.......somewhere.

We made a trip into Mexico with the Neptune Dive Club once. They camped in a gated private campground on the beach. They all raved about the fish taco's a Mexican lady made in the camp. We went to her little stand, and she was patting the tortillas out flat on her bare thigh. Best fish tacos we ever ate.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Interested Party in UK]

I'm guessing you already know about these 2 books, and other than reading them I have not verified any of the claims made so I'm not suggesting everything written in them is fact, but if you haven't read them you might find them interesting on the topic of discussion.

They Never Surrendered - by Douglas Meed

The Apache Indians: In Search of the Missing Tribe - by Helge Ingstad

Thank you, Cubfan64.

If I'm not mistaken, Ingstad always felt his guides that had once been on the warpath with Geronimo, had made surreptitious contacts with the Apache that were still living in the Madres mountains.

Many on the reservations, perhaps, also knew of the whereabouts of the "Free Ones" as, whenever anyone left, they usually linked-up fairly quickly with the band(s) still south of the border.

Even when PoWs in Oklahoma, Chief Naiche was approached to help track "hostile" still causing depredations from their hideouts and strongholds in old Mexico.

IPUK

 

[Cubfan64]

Thank you, Cubfan64.

If I'm not mistaken, Ingstad always felt his guides that had once been on the warpath with Geronimo, had made surreptitious contacts with the Apache that were still living in the Madres mountains.

Many on the reservations, perhaps, also knew of the whereabouts of the "Free Ones" as, whenever anyone left, they usually linked-up fairly quickly with the band(s) still south of the border.

Even when PoWs in Oklahoma, Chief Naiche was approached to help track "hostile" still causing depredations from their hideouts and strongholds in old Mexico.

IPUK

It's been a few years since I last read it, but I believe you're correct that Ingstad was pretty certain there were at least some on the Mescalero reservation that stayed in at least loose contact with those still alive down in Mexico.

Ingstad was far and away the better of the two books. If I recall, Meed made at least a few errors and I just looked up his book and was reminded that he makes the implication that the Apache ancestors of those renegades are at least partially responsible for the narco activities down there. Not that it isn't possible, but that's a pretty strong implication to make without providing any evidence.

There's so much stuff out there I still have to read - I find myself constantly digging through well annotated bibliographies for further sources to read. I often think I was born too late - there are so many people I would have liked to talk with.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Cuber, the narcos down here come form all walks of life and social status, Where the Yanks provide so much money in drug consumption. there is a way.

 

[azdave35]

Cuber, the narcos down here come form all walks of life and social status, Where the Yanks provide so much money in drug consumption. there is a way.

so if we killed all the american drug addicts...then the cartels would be out of business?

 

[cactusjumper]

It's been a few years since I last read it, but I believe you're correct that Ingstad was pretty certain there were at least some on the Mescalero reservation that stayed in at least loose contact with those still alive down in Mexico.

Ingstad was far and away the better of the two books. If I recall, Meed made at least a few errors and I just looked up his book and was reminded that he makes the implication that the Apache ancestors of those renegades are at least partially responsible for the narco activities down there. Not that it isn't possible, but that's a pretty strong implication to make without providing any evidence.

There's so much stuff out there I still have to read - I find myself constantly digging through well annotated bibliographies for further sources to read. I often think I was born too late - there are so many people I would have liked to talk with.

Paul,

Ah....my friend,

You are deep in the clutches of history. I can assure you she will make every effort to drain you (your bank account) dry. Fascinating, isn't it?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

Ah....my friend,

You are deep in the clutches of history. I can assure you she will make every effort to drain you (your bank account) dry. Fascinating, isn't it?

Take care,

Joe

I buy them little by little over time so it doesn't hurt so much in the wallet, and it's actually sort of fun to be on the lookout for bargains. It doesn't hurt me nearly as much as it does you because I'm not trying to collect first editions or signed copies - most of the time as long as the pages aren't falling out or covered in writing I'll buy the cheapest ones I can find. I have plenty "former library books" :-).

The biggest problem I foresee is finding room for all of it, and my wife's biggest concern is what to do with all the LDM and Apache books, journals, articles, etc... I keep gathering when I die. I'd like it all go to some young "Coronado child" so they can start off with a hand up from where I did and further enjoy it all. I'd hate to imagine it all going into a dumpster someday, but I'm sure things like that happen every day .

 

[cactusjumper]

I buy them little by little over time so it doesn't hurt so much in the wallet, and it's actually sort of fun to be on the lookout for bargains. It doesn't hurt me nearly as much as it does you because I'm not trying to collect first editions or signed copies - most of the time as long as the pages aren't falling out or covered in writing I'll buy the cheapest ones I can find. I have plenty "former library books" :-).

The biggest problem I foresee is finding room for all of it, and my wife's biggest concern is what to do with all the LDM and Apache books, journals, articles, etc... I keep gathering when I die. I'd like it all go to some young "Coronado child" so they can start off with a hand up from where I did and further enjoy it all. I'd hate to imagine it all going into a dumpster someday, but I'm sure things like that happen every day .

Paul,

I have the exact same problem.....not enough room. I have started a list, with the prices I paid, to make it easier to sell my collection when I'm gone. Between the books and the guns, someone will make a pretty good living. I'll leave instructions for Carolyn to send you a copy of the list. Start saving now.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

I have the exact same problem.....not enough room. I have started a list, with the prices I paid, to make it easier to sell my collection when I'm gone. Between the books and the guns, someone will make a pretty good living. I'll leave instructions for Carolyn to send you a copy of the list. Start saving now.

Take care,

Joe

That's a bold assumption that I'm gonna outlast you

 

[Interested Party in UK]

It's been a few years since I last read it, but I believe you're correct that Ingstad was pretty certain there were at least some on the Mescalero reservation that stayed in at least loose contact with those still alive down in Mexico.

Ingstad was far and away the better of the two books. If I recall, Meed made at least a few errors and I just looked up his book and was reminded that he makes the implication that the Apache ancestors of those renegades are at least partially responsible for the narco activities down there. Not that it isn't possible, but that's a pretty strong implication to make without providing any evidence.

There's so much stuff out there I still have to read - I find myself constantly digging through well annotated bibliographies for further sources to read. I often think I was born too late - there are so many people I would have liked to talk with.

The Mescalero are an interesting branch of the Apache family tree. They had very close links with the eastern Chiricahua, and raided and went on the warpath with them frequently. They also provided shelter in times of need.

When researching the Ben Sublett story, it was interesting to note that a band of Mescalero stayed off the Res. nearly as long as the Chiricahua did, but instead of heading into old Mexico, they stayed in their familiar haunts and had a fight with Texas Rangers (I think) in the Guadalupe mountains in about 1881. So it could be said that they cherished the "old ways" just as much as their western brethren.

I would also have loved the opportunity to ask many questions to folk who are no longer here...


IPUK

 

[cactusjumper]

That's a bold assumption that I'm gonna outlast you

Not so bold really. You can still get up and walk away from the campfire without assistance.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Loke]

I'm guessing you already know about these 2 books, and other than reading them I have not verified any of the claims made so I'm not suggesting everything written in them is fact, but if you haven't read them you might find them interesting on the topic of discussion.

They Never Surrendered - by Douglas Meed

The Apache Indians: In Search of the Missing Tribe - by Helge Ingstad

Funnily enough - looking thru' my meagre library I came across the very same book from 1939 (in Norwegian) and of course, I had to start reading it. Other than Ingstad obviously being a great supporter of the Apaches and their cause, the most interesting (to my mind, anyway) was the claim that the Apaches came from the far North (NW of Hudson Bay) where Ingstad 8 years previously had spent time with the local Chipewayan-indians who had tales of part of them emigrating Southwards ... then Ingstad found the same story amongst the Apaches - that they originally had come from a land far, far North.

Now strike me dead (no, not literally!!) - I never knew that!!

 

[cactusjumper]

Funnily enough - looking thru' my meagre library I came across the very same book from 1939 (in Norwegian) and of course, I had to start reading it. Other than Ingstad obviously being a great supporter of the Apaches and their cause, the most interesting (to my mind, anyway) was the claim that the Apaches came from the far North (NW of Hudson Bay) where Ingstad 8 years previously had spent time with the local Chipewayan-indians who had tales of part of them emigrating Southwards ... then Ingstad found the same story amongst the Apaches - that they originally had come from a land far, far North.

Now strike me dead (no, not literally!!) - I never knew that!!

Per,

The Athabascan speaking people were the last to come over the Bearing Land Bridge and settled in Alaska. There are many tribes that belong to that language family. Eventually, the Apache/Navajo moved south into warmer climes. The two tribes split at some time and became as they are now. I believe you would consider Alaska to be the "far North". Your book is a good one.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Cuber, as they say "only the good die young, I'll out last you, joe or oro by a large marginand one for mal

 

[cactusjumper]

The Apache were definitely an interesting people. Among the other Indian tribes, I would guess they were not as dominating as some think. Just because they avoided capture while being hunted by the Army, does not say that much for their ability to fight. History records many battles that they lost. On the other hand, they were expert at bushwhacking small parties of unprepared travelers. For the most part, they avoided conflicts where they did not have a decided advantage in warriors.

The truth is, they were forced out of many desirable areas by stronger tribes. Probably a tendency that started in Asia and ended in Arizona, when they finally gave up the fight.

It's just history folks.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Interested Party in UK]

The Chiricahua Apache gave the US Army a decent enough fight for over a decade whilst under the leadership of Cochise.

It simply wasn't about "avoiding capture" which defined their fighting abilities; looking at what the army officers who fought them said about the likes of Victorio, Juh, Geronimo, Nane et al., they admired their ferociousness, tenacity and bravery. It wasn't made or dreamt-up at all.

For a people that could never muster more than a couple of hundred warriors for war, compared to such tribes as the Comanche, Sioux or even the Navajoes who could due to their superior numbers, they gave a pretty solid account of themselves and weren't afraid to bring battle to their enemies when forced to do so.

Larger tribes settled for whitey's rule under much less pressure yet the Chiricahua fought to the bitter end and even their womenfolk and children resisted with perserverance.

The Southwest and northern Mexico bares testimony to the Apache people who have left an indelible mark on such a vast area, over such a long period of time and yet were so few in number. They were the true masters of the deserts, mountains and terrain of that part of the world.


IPUK

 

[cactusjumper]

The Chiricahua Apache gave the US Army a decent enough fight for over a decade whilst under the leadership of Cochise.

It simply wasn't about "avoiding capture" which defined their fighting abilities; looking at what the army officers who fought them said about the likes of Victorio, Juh, Geronimo, Nane et al., they admired their ferociousness, tenacity and bravery. It wasn't made or dreamt-up at all.

For a people that could never muster more than a couple of hundred warriors for war, compared to such tribes as the Comanche, Sioux or even the Navajoes who could due to their superior numbers, they gave a pretty solid account of themselves and weren't afraid to bring battle to their enemies when forced to do so.

Larger tribes settled for whitey's rule under much less pressure yet the Chiricahua fought to the bitter end and even their womenfolk and children resisted with perserverance.

The Southwest and northern Mexico bares testimony to the Apache people who have left an indelible mark on such a vast area, over such a long period of time and yet were so few in number. They were the true masters of the deserts, mountains and terrain of that part of the world.


IPUK

IPUK,

What do you consider "the bitter end"?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[azdave35]

The Apache were definitely an interesting people. Among the other Indian tribes, I would guess they were not as dominating as some think. Just because they avoided capture while being hunted by the Army, does not say that much for their ability to fight. History records many battles that they lost. On the other hand, they were expert at bushwhacking small parties of unprepared travelers. For the most part, they avoided conflicts where they did not have a decided advantage in warriors.

The truth is, they were forced out of many desirable areas by stronger tribes. Probably a tendency that started in Asia and ended in Arizona, when they finally gave up the fight.

It's just history folks.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

well said...i'd say that's pretty accurate

 

[sdcfia]

The Apache were definitely an interesting people. Among the other Indian tribes, I would guess they were not as dominating as some think. Just because they avoided capture while being hunted by the Army, does not say that much for their ability to fight. History records many battles that they lost. On the other hand, they were expert at bushwhacking small parties of unprepared travelers. For the most part, they avoided conflicts where they did not have a decided advantage in warriors.

The truth is, they were forced out of many desirable areas by stronger tribes. Probably a tendency that started in Asia and ended in Arizona, when they finally gave up the fight.

It's just history folks.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

The Apaches' reputation benefitted from their timing in history. Quick and widespread media bolstered their prowess beyond that of earlier, mostly forgotten warriors who preceded them.

Of course they avoided disadvantageous situations - they were smart. Without ever knowing of Sun Tzu's The Art of War, the Apaches nonetheless personified many of the book's precepts, including, "He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot will be victorious."