The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...

[Interested Party in UK]

Oroblanco,

Geronimo might have been causing some mischief around the time of the LDM legend was being born, he was in Arizona alright. But. In truth, he had about as much to do with the Superstitions as I do presently....

By the way, in some 'treasure' books, good old Geronimo has been made a "chief" that had "hundreds" of warriors at his command and was responsible for "shutting down" Tayopa, some other famous mine in old Mexico which I cannot recall the name of and various treasure caves, caches and hoards throughout the Southwest...


IPUK

 

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[Interested Party in UK]

Not to derail this further, but just wanted to point out that Geronimo stated in his autobiography how relentless the US troops were in pursuing him and capturing his camp repeatedly, after Miles became commander, and also Geronimo made NO mention of Lt Gatewood. If Gatewood's actions were so key to the surrender, you might expect that Geronimo at least would have mentioned him.

Please do continue, hoping the quarrel is over as this could be a most interesting thread.

The US troops might have been relentless (it was the Apache scouts that were the determining factor in my opinion) in pursuing the Chiricahua, but that still didn't stop them wanting to live 'free' in old Mexico.


IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

no quarrel on my part IPUJ, just a interesting obervations from articles from various scources. in that era?

 

[cactusjumper]

The US troops might have been relentless (it was the Apache scouts that were the determining factor in my opinion) in pursuing the Chiricahua, but that still didn't stop them wanting to live 'free' in old Mexico.


IPUK

IPUK,

Living free to the Apache with Geronimo meant killing and raiding Mexican villages. Their life style did not allow for living peacefully with.....anyone.

Apache history is out there.....in spades. Keep reading.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

HAPPY VETERAN'S DAY!!!



Waiting for the parade to pass.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[markmar]

Joe

You can't walk anymore ?

 

[Oroblanco]

The US troops might have been relentless (it was the Apache scouts that were the determining factor in my opinion) in pursuing the Chiricahua, but that still didn't stop them wanting to live 'free' in old Mexico.


IPUK

I am not sure which scouts deserve so much credit, especially since there were also 'white' scouts like Tom Horn and Al Sieber, plus Miles had hired additional Indian scouts from "other tribes not friendly to the Apaches" including Navajos and Pimas. One party of 20 Pima scouts nearly collided with Geronimo and Lawton shortly after the surrender at Skeleton canyon. Geronimo mentioned that his band was skirmishing with the US troops "almost every day" due to the hot pursuit, and losing much of their meat supply and camp equipage several times was definitely a factor in driving him to seek an end to hostilities. It had to be difficult to be on the run, constantly, never being allowed a few days to rest up. No matter how tough the warriors might be, for the women, children and old folks this kind of campaign would have been exhausting. I found that this is a common factor in the surrender of most of the tribes which fought the US, it was not expected that the Americans would pursue them constantly even in winters, and in the case of Geronimo, even into the mountain recesses of Mexico.

Several of the players noted a key part played by the women (squaws) of Geronimo's band, that nearly all of them carried binoculars or a field glass, and acted as 'spies' keeping watch; they were surprised that the Apaches knew of the approach of every party of troops before the Americans did, thanks to these women keeping watch.

Please do continue;

 

[Oroblanco]

PS ditto to the words of my friend Cactusjumper, HAPPY VETERANS DAY!

 

[Interested Party in UK]

IPUK,

Living free to the Apache with Geronimo meant killing and raiding Mexican villages. Their life style did not allow for living peacefully with.....anyone.

Apache history is out there.....in spades. Keep reading.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

True, it meant having a wary life of raiding, killing and keeping constant vigilance for the opposition in all its forms.

But killing and stealing/raiding the Mexicans was considered 'acceptable' to the Apache due to the turbulent history they shared.

I know that Apache history is out there..., much of it was written during the era and is contemporary. There is also a fair amount from the Apache side which makes it a unique circumstance as usually it is the "winning" side that has the privilege. Also the injuns had/have a strong oral history tradition and up until the 1960s, there was participants in the Wars, still sharing their experiences.


IPUK

 

[Interested Party in UK]

I am not sure which scouts deserve so much credit, especially since there were also 'white' scouts like Tom Horn and Al Sieber, plus Miles had hired additional Indian scouts from "other tribes not friendly to the Apaches" including Navajos and Pimas. One party of 20 Pima scouts nearly collided with Geronimo and Lawton shortly after the surrender at Skeleton canyon. Geronimo mentioned that his band was skirmishing with the US troops "almost every day" due to the hot pursuit, and losing much of their meat supply and camp equipage several times was definitely a factor in driving him to seek an end to hostilities. It had to be difficult to be on the run, constantly, never being allowed a few days to rest up. No matter how tough the warriors might be, for the women, children and old folks this kind of campaign would have been exhausting. I found that this is a common factor in the surrender of most of the tribes which fought the US, it was not expected that the Americans would pursue them constantly even in winters, and in the case of Geronimo, even into the mountain recesses of Mexico.

Several of the players noted a key part played by the women (squaws) of Geronimo's band, that nearly all of them carried binoculars or a field glass, and acted as 'spies' keeping watch; they were surprised that the Apaches knew of the approach of every party of troops before the Americans did, thanks to these women keeping watch.

Please do continue;

The Chiricahua scouts in particular were singled out for praise amongst the officers that led them. Most, if not all, gave special mention to their ability, stamina, focus, loyalty and skills in helping penetrate the hideouts of the last free Chiricahua. Otherwise, it was a near-hopeless task.

Al Sieber was dropped for a stupid 'trick' he played which nearly did for a party of troops and scouts. Tom Horn vastly exaggerated his role.

Even when Gatewood had Kayitah and Martine track the 'last' band of Chief Naiche's and Geronimo, the old medicine man was all for shooting them but other warriors refused as they wanted to know why they'd come that far to speak to them. Geronimo had also been on a massive drinking binge from alcohol obtained by a woman in their band that had been into one of the Mexican villages. He clearly stated that it was a delaying tactic and that it was also a ruse to obtain supplies and an opportunity to rest. Nothing else. It was knowing that their families and tribe had been sent into exile that ended the war.


Kanseah was a young boy in the final band and he remarkably identified Gatewood's two scouts by their walking style so each and everyone had a role to play out of necessity of their precarious existence.



IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

IPUK, Doesnt it srike you as strange that Chiricahua scouts were all volumtiers against the so called wild Indians, perhaps even they were against the life style of the raiding and killing of the broncos, why didn't they join him??

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Don,

I believe things were a tad more complicated.

Believe it or not, scouts became hostiles a la Ulzana, hostiles became scouts - Chatto - family, relationships, enimity, jealousy and much more, all played its part.

One of the best and most successful renegades was a chief (Chihuahua) of a Chiricahua band and yet, was also a scout for many years.

There was much inter-tribal and even inter-band hostility, so it was a complex environment to operate in.

Still doesn't detract that those Chiricahua Apaches were special and kept the Southwest and northern Mexico ( especially the Mexicans), in the grip of fear and uncertainty for many, many years...


IPUK

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Anyway, Don, me and the team are fairly sure that the Apache are no longer in the Sierra Madres, therefore, we are willing to come over to 'ol Mexico and help you dig-up specie and bars of whatever exists at your site...

Give us some evidence and if it is a reasonable proposition, we'll do the deal. You can take it easy fella and leave the s***-shovelling to us Englishmen.

It would also give me an excuse to come explore and reflect in the old haunts of those who have fascinated me for so long...


IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

You would need an international confidentuality aggreemnt to access Oro's iinformation, or mine. Then you could make up your collective minds as to it's feasibility.

Oro has perhaps 90 % of the necesary data. I trust Beth to keep him in line

You snd yours are welcome

 

[Interested Party in UK]

With all due respect to Oro, Don, you need to make this call on your lonesome.

Let's get the ball rolling if you're up for a challenge...

IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Ah, but there are, but not the pillaging ones of yore. Our Surveyor is a full blooded Apache whose mother remained as a wld Apace in the Sierras after Geronimo chickened out, She is dead now, but we had several very interesting talks, I liked her.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Don, I was jesting with you on that point; we've got bigger fish to fry.

If there really is a repository there with considerable wealth, then let's go to work!

I know that Amy and the Trio had done some 'work' in wondering whether to go for it, I am willing to take the opportunity if it does seem 'doable'. Risk versus reward and all that.

C'mon me codger, this is a chance for you to put to bed any and all of even the smallest hint of fleeting doubt that might have ever crossed your mind...

Tayopa, Topira, Teopa or even Teaforpops, who cares what it's called as long as there is wealth there...


IPUK

 

[Injunbro]

Several posts back someone mentioned the differences between Crook's & Miles fighting methods. The real difference is Crook occasionally went into the field to fight (mostly because he loved to hunt & fish) & Miles occasionally swapped telegrams w/ the troops in the field. Whether fighting the Lakota's or Apaches both basically followed the same pattern: wait until they're encamped for the winter, have some scouts find them, then shoot everything of any age, gender or species & burn everything in sight. W/ the Lakota's that included burning the prairie grass so the buffalo they missed starved out & cut the Indians food supply. Unfortunately for them it didn't work so well in the southwest where the Apaches weren't snowbound & could resupply.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

IPUK, you asked if[[[

Ah, but there is. Course you would have to split with the Goov"t, the lumber Ejiod. As for oro and me. we would be contaent with say 10 MILION.

Estimated stored in the depository , and the funds for the proposed insurrection
$ 1.000.000.000

Right now I don't even have the funds for a new urinal pot, but it has been fun., . It would have been nice to live like my good Friends Jim and Nancy They have managed to exist down here.

 

[audigger53]

OK, I lived in Florence, AZ while going to High School. Senior year was out at a Beer Party with HS guys and some Pima Indians. It was only nine miles from Florence to the Pima Indian Res. One of the Pima's told this story and I listened.
"A Pima warrior was out hunting and saw a dark dot way out in the desert. He went down into a wash and buried down in the sand and waited. Hours later an Apache Warrior came down into the wash and walked past him. As he jumped up to attack him from behind, and Apache came out of the sand next to him and stabbed him." Pima's come in 2 sixes normally.
One is about 5'4 to 5'6 and about 200 Lbs. About 1 inch of fat over muscle. The other is about 5'10 to 6 feet and about 260 to 280 again with about 1 inch of fat over muscle. They normally won't make friends with you unless you fight them, so that they know you are a warrior. Most of the Indians that I have meet were the same way. I never liked to fight, but had to most of my young life, up through HS. Had a problem with what now is called "Anger Management". If I lost it, I felt no pain and hit with the entire body behind it. Found out that the Pima's respected me for that. I still think it is a strange mind set, but as they were always fighting the Apaches (for hundreds of years) they respected warriors and thought I was one.