The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...

[Injunbro]

There is no 1 single burial ground for Apaches, no idea where that notion came from. I know of several in this area, 1 in the Sup's near the sacred cave, (as far as I know Hataali's or medicine men & women & their families), & another near here & another east of the Sup's & Cochise is buried alone in the Dragoon Mtns., 1 in the Chiricahuas, etc.. Unlike Whites, Apaches don't go visit gravesites of their relatives. Let the dead rest in peace. The Apaches did spend time in the Sup's & in Mexico & a lot of other places sometimes wandering south to banana country, west to the Colorado River, east into Texas & Oklahoma. They were nomadic. To try & put actual borders on their territory is an exercise in futility.
Joe, I don't know who the "wannabe Apache" is you refer to but have ran into a few wannabes of various tribes over the years, most are like Simon the sorcerer in the Bible (Acts 8:9,18) who tried to buy power for personal gain (there are no wealthy Hataalis). Those wannabes are known as inlgashn` (witches), there are some tribal members who do the same, unfortunately. I'd burn anything, including a picture he sends you or feather or whatever, just to be safe. No real Hataali would give you real eagle feather. It's not unheard of to contaminate such things w/ diseases (I could go into details but it's pretty disgusting).

 

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[cactusjumper]

Joe

Is a great honor to have a such gift . The eagle's feathers represent the freedom , the free Spirit , the power , the health , the wisdom .
BTW , I believe the most Apache sacred places are situated in a like " Eagle nest " shape regions .

Marius,

It's turkey, just like the guy who gave it to me. I knew the meaning of the "gift", just didn't know he didn't mean it.....maybe he did, just couldn't chance it. We all change over time, it's just that this turkey is in way too deep. There were many signs this guy was a phony, just didn't want to believe them.

Growing up, my best friend was an Indian, living with his family off the reservation. Ramona was full of them. Dave was really the best of the lot. Been interested in Native American history and lifestyle since early childhood.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

There is no 1 single burial ground for Apaches, no idea where that notion came from. I know of several in this area, 1 in the Sup's near the sacred cave, (as far as I know Hataali's or medicine men & women & their families), & another near here & another east of the Sup's & Cochise is buried alone in the Dragoon Mtns., 1 in the Chiricahuas, etc.. Unlike Whites, Apaches don't go visit gravesites of their relatives. Let the dead rest in peace. The Apaches did spend time in the Sup's & in Mexico & a lot of other places sometimes wandering south to banana country, west to the Colorado River, east into Texas & Oklahoma. They were nomadic. To try & put actual borders on their territory is an exercise in futility.
Joe, I don't know who the "wannabe Apache" is you refer to but have ran into a few wannabes of various tribes over the years, most are like Simon the sorcerer in the Bible (Acts 8:9,18) who tried to buy power for personal gain (there are no wealthy Hataalis). Those wannabes are known as inlgashn` (witches), there are some tribal members who do the same, unfortunately. I'd burn anything, including a picture he sends you or feather or whatever, just to be safe. No real Hataali would give you real eagle feather. It's not unheard of to contaminate such things w/ diseases (I could go into details but it's pretty disgusting).

Injunbro,

Agree with everything you have said. Almost everyone here knows who I am talking about, no need to name him. I believe he hangs out here almost every day, under a different name. I don't believe you seek Apache "power" in any way. It seeks and finds you.

The Apache moved with the food source in season and where the weather pushed them. The boundaries that have been speculated for them are, IMHO, mostly general in location. Your people were, generally speaking, north and east of the Superstitions. Like all Native Americans, and people in general, they lived as close as they could to dependable water sources, like the Salt and other Arizona rivers.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Injunbro]

Joe, You're correct about "power", it's not so much a gift as a huge responsibility, sort of like being the biggest or smartest kid in your class, you're either a great help to others or evil to be destroyed. Anyone seeking "power" should have their motive questioned. I'm not a Hataali, but had a relative who was (dead for nearly 40 years), it's a great responsibility & very taxing on a person financially, physically & mentally.
Many of my people lived in NM, Texas, SE AZ, old Mexico, White Mountains & west of Prescott, AZ. The ones who brought me to the sacred cave ceremonial were from the Prescott area but originally from the White Mountains.

 

[Crowfriend]

The Chiricahua tribe has four acres in the Dragoons. Old man Shaw left it to them. Over a dozen years ago, a man I know was traveling from his home in New York to Ca. Someone said "You ought to pay a visit to the Dragoons." He did and never left. Spent a year or two in a cave. Met some Indians there and they were real curious about him, asked a lot of questions. Why are you asking me these questions? Because you are tall, thin, red whiskers, from New York, and you end up here in our mountains. We think maybe you have some spirit of Tom Jeffords. He was in charge of things when we had a reservation here. Do you want to be our caretaker of the four acres? Sure, why not. He built a dome house from discarded lumber and used building materials. It's a real nice place. I've been there many times. Met lots of Indians there. Mr H used to go there a lot, not so much anymore.

Meanwhile, unrelated to all this, my path crosses with a Chiricahua man. We become good friends and he tells me lots of stories. One time he tells me "The elders were angry with me last time I saw them." Why were they angry? "Because they say I tell you too much about things only Indians should talk about." How do they know what we talk about? "That's what I would like to know" he says. He shows me a rock he found, bland on one side, turn it over and there's a face on it. He says "I named him Ishi." in reference to me telling him a few weeks earlier about the last "wild" Indian, as he is known. Ishi's story is poignant to me because of the broken promise that they would not dissect his body after death. They sure did and sent his brain to the Smithsonian. The last promise to the last Indian, broken. What a legacy. So anyway, my friend is real partial to this rock with the face. Handles it with great care, wraps it in braintanned deerskin. I don't press him as to what it means to him.

I had told my friend the caretaker about my friendship with the Chiricahua Man. (or "Chokonini" as he likes to say.) Several months later my caretaker friend calls me. "Hey, that man you told me about, is his name so and so?" Yup. 'Well he comes and stays for a few days. After he left I noticed a rock with a face he left on the property. I know every pebble of the four acres and I'm sure he left it." Yes, I know the rock, I tell him. "Well Mr. H came to the Dragoons and I show him the rock. He gets real agitated about it, wants to know who left it. Tells me it's bad medicine and the man who left it is up to no good. Destroy it and take the pieces and scatter them." Mr H goes home to San Carlos. A week later Mr H calls the caretaker: "Did you destroy that foul rock?" No, not yet. "Well do it soon, I'm not joking around, it's bad for all of us." So my caretaker friend says to me "You know how it is with you and me, we aren't really a part of these things. You and I call them Medicine Man wars so I didn't really care much about the rock, but to make Mr. H happy I decided to smash the rock. I place it on another rock with the face side up, I got a big hammer and smashed it as hard as I could. What happened really flipped me out. The rock smashed to pieces and a big shower of purple sparks went everywhere. Some of the purple was like a thin cloud and just sort of drifted away. I sure as hell picked up any pieces I could find and scattered them off the property. Now I don't want to tell you what to do but you maybe should rethink your friendship with that Chiricahua man." I'm still friends with him and won't ever bring up the events described. Just another story. The cultural chasm is wide and interesting to me.

 

[Injunbro]

I wondered if anyone would bring up that 4 acres. I was told it was given to the Chiricahuas (not those from San Carlos) by Rockfellow as the last remnant of his ranch.

 

[Crowfriend]

It was Rockfellow's neighbor, Richard Shaw. May be he bought it from Rockfellow, not sure. The Chiricahuas have little interest in it. An official from that tribe was there two years ago and gave the okee dokeey to my friend to continue living there, but it's rare to hear from them. Que lastima.

 

[Crowfriend]

In 2013,I saw a flyer in a storefront window in my hometown of Bisbee. The Chiricahuas were to have a celebration of 100 years of freedom. The flyer mentioned that the Chiricahuas were going to have a parade. Oh man, a parade? Who ever heard of the Chiricahuas having a parade? And runners were going to arrive from Fort Sill. I have to go. So I got a room in Tularosa as the celebration was in Mescalero. I drove around and saw the old church. The first day, a bunch of then walked from Tularosa to Mescalero. Everybody dressed in their finest outfits. Glorious. They had a big dance at the rodeo grounds. Warriors dance I supposed as they were all men with weapons. No parking fees. No admission fees. An army of men and woman cooking a huge feast. Free. Everything given freely with a smile. I only saw half a dozen non Indians. Thought there would be more, oh well. Silas Cochise, since passed two months later, was pretty much running the show, so I asked him if I could take photos of the warrior dance. No problem, but when the crown dancers show up I wasn't to take photos. All but one of the dancers were, it seemed to me, to be dancing for us, the crowd. But this one man, he really got my attention. It seemed to me he was dancing for those that went before us. He was deep into it. I will post a photo of him merged with a lightning photo from another time. On another site I was chastised for putting it up, but like I said, I had permission from the boss man.

The second day they had the big parade. Three buffalo soldiers were invited to be in it. Cool. I went over and talked to them. They were having the time of their lives, they were hilarious, great sense of humor. So trucks with flat bed trailers passed by on the parade. Each truck had a banner proclaiming which family they were from. Lots of relatives of the famous Apaches were in it. Next to me was a woman standing by herself so I introduced myself and her last name was Geronimo. Oh man, I need to think of some sort of incisive question to ask her. So I ask her what's it like to be brought up in that family with a name that is so famous? "Well, she says, it's nothing really, just happened to be born to this family." Dang, struck out, Must think of another question. Here goes. If you were to jump out of an airplane, what would you yell? She straightens up, smiles and yells "Meeeeeeeeeee!"

I met another woman and we talk some about the old days. She tells me she is Navajo and married to a Chiricahua. She says I should meet her husband. So she takes me over to this elder man and he's just as friendly as can be. He tells me his father came to Mescalero in 1903. His father was one of the free Apaches in the Sierra Madres. He asks me if I want to go with him to Naiche's gravesite. Sure would.

The last day the runners arrive to the fairgrounds. I was standing next to three teenage boys and as the runners arrive one of them starts crying. The tallest boy says "Why are you crying?" He says "I am thinking of my ancestors." The tallest boy puts his arm around him. I thought about that. When I was in my teens and had showed such emotion, I would have been meanly ridiculed.

So it goes. All the talk about the ferocity of the fighting Apaches. No doubt they fought well. But there's another side to it. There is a lot of love and humor and tradition that is very much alive. I've always been treated in the manner that I wish my non Indian friends would treat me. Injunbro reminds me of just about everyone I have met related to that group, patient, (to a point), humorous, giving what is asked for.

 

[Crowfriend]

Chiricahua pride

 

[Injunbro]

The last day the runners arrive to the fairgrounds. I was standing next to three teenage boys and as the runners arrive one of them starts crying. The tallest boy says "Why are you crying?" He says "I am thinking of my ancestors." The tallest boy puts his arm around him. I thought about that. When I was in my teens and had showed such emotion, I would have been meanly ridiculed.
But there's another side to it. There is a lot of love and humor and tradition that is very much alive. I've always been treated in the manner that I wish my non Indian friends would treat me. Injunbro reminds me of just about everyone I have met related to that group, patient, (to a point), humorous, giving what is asked for.

Thank you for the kind words. As a halfbreed I tend to see things different than most people & feel more free to discuss things. IMHO Indians are extremes: extremely loyal to family (& the whole tribe is your family, clans are brothers & sisters) if you befriend an Indian you have a friend forever. They will go to any extreme to help or comfort another & good-natured laughter & teasing is rampant. But if you go too far & piss one off you have made an enemy to the point they will hold the grudge forever & may not want to kill you but keep you around to keep absolutely miserable, his family will join in keeping you in constant grief. Even worse is betraying a friend or simply failing to stand up for him. Never accuse an Indian of telling a lie, even if you think you can prove it. Indians speak very literally: if they say they will do something, they will but just agreeing w/ you something is a good idea only means it's a good idea, not that they would actually do it. Agreement & commitment isn't the same thing. General Crook visited the Chiricahuas in captivity & made the statement he didn't want to talk w/ Geronimo because he was a liar. Geronimo left & showed no expression but returned a few minutes later & stood near Crook w/out saying a word, then left again. There's a powder (I know the ingredients but won't disclose them) that if gotten in the eyes can make a person go blind & a slightly different mix that if even gotten on the skin can make a heart go weak. Crook started suffering from heart failure soon after & died of a heart attack. Did Geronimo do it? Many then & now said so. I honestly don't know but do know most around Geronimo were scared spitless of him, he could make very strange things happen. The Chiricahuas felt betrayed by both Crook & Miles (rightfully so) for Crook to call Geronimo a liar was an unbearable insult. I knew another hataali (now dead) who was similarly feared & for very good reason, he could make creatures appear & disappear, heal or kill you painfully as he chose.

 

[Azquester]

Thank you for the kind words. As a halfbreed I tend to see things different than most people & feel more free to discuss things. IMHO Indians are extremes: extremely loyal to family (& the whole tribe is your family, clans are brothers & sisters) if you befriend an Indian you have a friend forever. They will go to any extreme to help or comfort another & good-natured laughter & teasing is rampant. But if you go too far & piss one off you have made an enemy to the point they will hold the grudge forever & may not want to kill you but keep you around to keep absolutely miserable, his family will join in keeping you in constant grief. Even worse is betraying a friend or simply failing to stand up for him. Never accuse an Indian of telling a lie, even if you think you can prove it. Indians speak very literally: if they say they will do something, they will but just agreeing w/ you something is a good idea only means it's a good idea, not that they would actually do it. Agreement & commitment isn't the same thing. General Crook visited the Chiricahuas in captivity & made the statement he didn't want to talk w/ Geronimo because he was a liar. Geronimo left & showed no expression but returned a few minutes later & stood near Crook w/out saying a word, then left again. There's a powder (I know the ingredients but won't disclose them) that if gotten in the eyes can make a person go blind & a slightly different mix that if even gotten on the skin can make a heart go weak. Crook started suffering from heart failure soon after & died of a heart attack. Did Geronimo do it? Many then & now said so. I honestly don't know but do know most around Geronimo were scared spitless of him, he could make very strange things happen. The Chiricahuas felt betrayed by both Crook & Miles (rightfully so) for Crook to call Geronimo a liar was an unbearable insult. I knew another hataali (now dead) who was similarly feared & for very good reason, he could make creatures appear & disappear, heal or kill you painfully as he chose.

That's true. Don't ever insult an Indian on the Reservation. To see how much an Apache values your life or the life of others around him including his family, just simply look at the laws they have on books in the Reservation for your answers. The Maximum an Apache or Tohonto Odham can get for murder on the Res is 60 days in jail.

Here's a look my Ancestor's the Monacan's:

Tribe in Videos - Monacan Indian Nation

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Injunbro,

Is there anything you can add to the incredible story of Massai's escape from the PoW train that the Chiricahua had been tricked onto.


IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

gente It is striking how close the Yaqui customs are to the Apache I have been to the secret Pasqua- easter - celebration where they --. nother story for another day. They dance representing P Pilot and the crucifiction and give out presents to who ever is watching, fascinating. Later they have a feast in which everyone is invited . Their favorite trick is to kill and slaughter a cow on it'e own hide, barbacue it with Yaqui spec. tortillas arond 30 inches in dia.. folded in quarters.

Do the Apache make the tortillas ?

Injinbro, many of my good friends are Indians, and I like them very much - obviously - so please remember my pulling your leg was intended in fun.

My dove is preening on top of my monitor, and scattering feathers over the desk. What do the Apache say in regards to having wild critters roam freely about ?

 

[Injunbro]

Injunbro,

Is there anything you can add to the incredible story of Massai's escape from the PoW train that the Chiricahua had been tricked onto.


IPUK

Not sure if this is an addition or not but 1 of the women gave birth on the train & when the soldiers counted them convinced them to count the baby so none were reported missing. The same soldiers weren't doing the counting every day & most thought all Indians look alike so it actually worked. Massai picked up a friend along the way, some say a Lipan Apache others say a different tribe all together but definitely someone he knew before. Massai caught a Mescalero girl out berry picking that he'd known before & married her, some say kidnapped but it's pretty hard to kidnap an Apache out w/ a bunch of her friends nearby. at any rate she was willing to stay w/ him or years & had several children. Some things were blamed on Massai done by other bronco Apaches including the Apache Kid, in all likelihood he was smart enough not to commit very many thefts or he'd have become a target. They lived in Mexico, the Chiricahua Mtns & sometimes in New Mexico, never staying anywhere very long. They lived primitive, hunting w/ bow & arrow, gathering & keeping a very low profile. When Massai was getting old & sick he was in the act of bringing his wife & their children to her relatives on the Mescalero Rez & when he was getting too sick to travel very far @ a time against Massai's wishes his oldest son stole a horse for him to ride. It was a bad move since the cowboys who owned it were nearby & shot the boy (he was about 13 or 14). Massai managed to kill the cowboys (he had a Winchester rifle that's still in the family) but died of wounds he received. Both he & his son are buried in SW New Mexico. His wife & remaining children made it back to Mescalero alone. Some descendants are still alive, some went under other names to avoid problems.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Not sure if this is an addition or not but 1 of the women gave birth on the train & when the soldiers counted them convinced them to count the baby so none were reported missing. The same soldiers weren't doing the counting every day & most thought all Indians look alike so it actually worked. Massai picked up a friend along the way, some say a Lipan Apache others say a different tribe all together but definitely someone he knew before. Massai caught a Mescalero girl out berry picking that he'd known before & married her, some say kidnapped but it's pretty hard to kidnap an Apache out w/ a bunch of her friends nearby. at any rate she was willing to stay w/ him or years & had several children. Some things were blamed on Massai done by other bronco Apaches including the Apache Kid, in all likelihood he was smart enough not to commit very many thefts or he'd have become a target. They lived in Mexico, the Chiricahua Mtns & sometimes in New Mexico, never staying anywhere very long. They lived primitive, hunting w/ bow & arrow, gathering & keeping a very low profile. When Massai was getting old & sick he was in the act of bringing his wife & their children to her relatives on the Mescalero Rez & when he was getting too sick to travel very far @ a time against Massai's wishes his oldest son stole a horse for him to ride. It was a bad move since the cowboys who owned it were nearby & shot the boy (he was about 13 or 14). Massai managed to kill the cowboys (he had a Winchester rifle that's still in the family) but died of wounds he received. Both he & his son are buried in SW New Mexico. His wife & remaining children made it back to Mescalero alone. Some descendants are still alive, some went under other names to avoid problems.

That is really interesting, Injunbro.

Thank you.

Even though Massai knew the hardships and travails he and anyone with him would face, he still made the conscious decision to live off the Res. and not as a PoW like most of the other Chiricahua had been forced to. His escape and amazing return to familiar haunts in the Southwest, is an incredible feat in itself.

What a precarious existence it must have been day-to-day supporting his children, wife and himself. So much for constant "raiding", "robbing" and "killing", hey?

He knew he had options but still chose to travel and live in some semblance to the past.

This is why I admire the Chiricahua notion of freedom so much.

Also, in the final round-up prior to deportation from their homeland, are you aware how many escaped the dragnet due to being married into other bands and being off the Res.? It is a bit of an intriguing point I believe.


IPUK

 

[Injunbro]

Also, in the final round-up prior to deportation from their homeland, are you aware how many escaped the dragnet due to being married into other bands and being off the Res.? It is a bit of an intriguing point I believe.IPUK

How many escaped? No idea. I know of @ least 5 families offhand who are direct descendants of the "Lost ones". Some joined other tribes such as the Tarahumari. I know of 1 whose family was shipped to Cuba of all places & he made it back 3 generations later. 1 family claimed they were Italian, several claimed to be Mexican. Some lived on the edges of various reservations but never were counted. Some didn't claim anything & just laid low for a couple of generations.

 

[Injunbro]

Do the Apache make the tortillas ?
Injinbro, many of my good friends are Indians, and I like them very much - obviously - so please remember my pulling your leg was intended in fun.

My dove is preening on top of my monitor, and scattering feathers over the desk. What do the Apache say in regards to having wild critters roam freely about ?

Joe, As far as I know all Indians in the southwest make flat bread, where did the Mexicans get the idea? Certainly not from Spain! Mexicans call them tortillas, Hopis pi`ki; Apaches ban` ik`ah; ik`ahbiyi` or ts`it`ii; etc.. Usually corn meal is used but sometime other grains. Made w/ ground dried mesquite beans they are delicious & w/ some honey, brown sugar & cinnamon are better than donuts. I have a bread stone our son dug up on our ranch where Apaches camped 100 plus years ago. It still works fine. If anyone doesn't know how flat bread is made or cooked holler & I'll explain.
Apaches are like all other people in that some re animal lovers, some aren't. My older sister adopts coons, cats, dogs, goats, sheep, turkeys & anything else that she can; my younger sister likes not having anything but herself around. We allow my wife's part wolf, part husky, part something smaller in the house to spread a layer of fur around but make the wild critters stay out by the pond. Heaven help anything that gets in her garden... she'll shoot w/out hesitation!
As far as the leg pulling: I'm not holding any grudges (you're still breathing, right?). However I see no point in moronic posts that have nothing to do w/ the subject & are insulting. Injuns are thick-headed but not thick skinned. Lets keep the discussion on track, it can be very interesting if the horse manure is kept to a minimum.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

How many escaped? No idea. I know of @ least 5 families offhand who are direct descendants of the "Lost ones". Some joined other tribes such as the Tarahumari. I know of 1 whose family was shipped to Cuba of all places & he made it back 3 generations later. 1 family claimed they were Italian, several claimed to be Mexican. Some lived on the edges of various reservations but never were counted. Some didn't claim anything & just laid low for a couple of generations.

I came across a reference that one Apache girl was 'captured' by ranchers/cowboys, and was then adopted by an American teacher who was either teaching or travelling through the Madre mountains. This pair then lived in the States for some time before relocating to Italy. The Apache girl who was now a fully-grown lady remembered the hard and weary times of living the precarious existence in old Mexico. She recalled a tale where her grandmother was forced to strangle a baby to death in order for it to stop crying and thus giving away their location to a passing patrol. She said it was an extremely harsh and unforgivable life where each day could very well be your last. But. She said they were 'free' and that is all that mattered. In truth, she didn't miss the life but recalled a fond memory where her granny went to a lot of trouble to sew her a lovely traditional Apache dress for a special occasion.

The lady died in Italy - in the 1980s I believe - after an accident where she fell and banged her head. When they searched her belongings, guess what they found...?...yep, that dress.

Also came across another story from the 1990s. An ageing Mexican recalled as a child in the 1930s or 1940s, when some Mexicans from his village had gone into the mountains and they had also 'captured' a young Apache girl. They had brought her back to the village and chained her up as some sort of exhibit. The girl was obviously terrified and would lash out at anyone trying to get near her. She refused water, food and any contact. The chap recalled seeing this child who was about the same age as him and feeling terrible sorrow at her plight. She died soon after without making any attempt to communicate. An Apache to the end...

Tragic stories from a tragic time.


IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Injun bro, the making of genuine tortillas requires several steps, first the corn is soaked in lye or wood ashes then it is ready for grinding, generally on a matate, flat stone, many are still in use with very deep holes ground into them from grinding the corn. Lately they have gone to commercial hand grinders,

I recall when I was holed up in a Manzanita bush due to rain in the remote sierras , there was an Indian family, home, not far away where I would go, soaked, to warm up by the fire and eat, There was a little girl in her very early teens, grinding the corn,she would kind leap up and use the weight to use her body weight to pull the handle down. I , being a gent,eman, decided that I would take over her job, after all if a ,a little girl ---- it couldn't be very hard - was I wrong, I was never so glad to stop in my life. It made me appreciate of a woman's life in a primitive setting.. The Apache women were e the true heros.

The best tortillas I ever ate were the blue corn mixed with native grass seeds and dried venison - dried venison or carne machaca.

 

[Injunbro]

We have made tortillas here ground on a metate & cooked on a bread stone (just to say we did) but generally use a hand crank grinder & frying pan nowadays, it cuts the time down by about 2/3. My wife grows blue corn (got the seed from the Hopis) in her garden & there's plenty of mesquite in our pasture. Corn or mesquite meal mixed w/ hot water so thick you can hardly pour it. Add a bit of salt & dribble it on a hot bread stone or skillet & toasted. This is making me hungry & I'd hit the wife up to make some but she'd make me crank the grinder...