Stone Charts of the Superstitions

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Hal,

I believe that's, pretty much, what Barney Barnard and Charles Frederick Higham wrote and how they spelled Waltz's name. There is no doubt that Waltz is the correct spelling.

Take care,

Joe
 

cactusjumper,
One thing that you can help me with.... The Holmes Manuscript was uncovered in 1970? But the above story was written and published in 1940. Just how wide spread was the Waltz confession story and when was it first made public? Thanks!
 

Hal,

Not sure how much help I can be. I don't believe the story of the deathbed confession was well known, at least as it's told in the Holmes Manuscript. In 1939 Barry Storm wrote that Waltz told Julia and Rhiney that
that he had murdered twice over the mine. Pure Storm bunk IMHO.

When Brownie Holmes first saw the manuscript, he denied ever seeing it. He denied writing it right up to his death. It seems likely that he did add the family history and his own experiences in hunting the LDM.

Good luck,

Joe
 

American Institute of Mining Engineers - 1920
Engineering and mining journal: Volume 110 - Page 544

Phoenix - It is claimed locally that the "Lost Dutchman" mine of the Superstition Mountains has been rediscovered. A property thus dubbed has been located around an old shaft that was found covered with mesquite timber, this spread with rock and dirt to obliterate all evidences of mining. At 100 ft. depth, it is claimed, a ledge has been found showing ore worth $400 a ton. The ore, it is said, is to be packed on burros to the Roosevelt road and shipped from Mesa station.
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The part about being covered over with timbers, rock and dirt fits the story. It doesn't give the location, but is in the right neighborhood.
 

James H. McClintock - 1916
Arizona, prehistoric, aboriginal, pioneer, modern: the nation's ...: Volume 2

One of the best authenticated of these stories was of the lost "Soldier" mine. The story has had little embellishment and, in part, may be true. Briefly narrated, it is this: In the summer of 1869 Abner McKeever and family were ambushed by Apaches on a ranch near the Big Bend of the Gila. McKeever's daughter, Belle, was taken captive. A number of soldiers gave chase. The Apaches separated into several bands, whose trails were followed by small detachments of soldiers, the most westerly by Sergeant Crossthwaite and two privates, Joe Wormley and Eugene Flannigan. Two of their horses dropped of fatigue and thirst and their provisions ran out. Taking some of the horseflesh with them, they struck northerly, seeking water in what is supposed to have been the Granite Wash range of mountains in Northern Yuma County. Water was found just in time to save their lives, for Wormley already had become delirious. In the morning they found the spring fairly paved with gold nuggets. Above it were two quartz veins, one narrow and the other sixteen feet wide. The soldiers dug out coarse gold by the aid of their knives. About fifty pounds of this golden quartz they loaded on the remaining horse and then set out for the Gila River. Less than a day's journey from the river, the three men separated, after the horse had dropped dead. Wormley reached the river, almost demented from his sufferings and unable to guide a party back into the desert. Men struck out on his trail and soon found Flannigan, who would have lasted only a few hours longer. He was able to tell the story of the gold find, and the rescuing party went farther to find Crossthwaite's body. In a pocket was a map, very roughly made and probably very inaccurate, on .which he had attempted to show the position of the golden spring. Still better evidence was secured a few days later in the discovery of the dead horse, with the gold ore strapped to his back. The ore was all that Flannigan claimed and $1,800 was realized from its sale. Flannigan made several unsuccessful attempts to return to the find, but he dreaded the desert and never went very far from the river. He died in Phoenix in 1880.
-------
Flannigan died in Phoenix in 1880, so I would think Waltz would have known him. Maybe they found that gold streak after all.
 

cactusjumper,
Ya, I am finding it a little strange that this story matches the HM so closely. This AZ guide was put together by writers during the WPA. How could they possibly know that level of detail without reading the manuscript.... or having access to someone familiar with it. I am not sure if this adds credibility to the manuscript, or just the opposite. I have never spent any real time researching Waltz and his lost mine until just recently. One thing I find fascinating is that Waltz crossed the Salt near Mormon Flat and traveled towards Tortilla Flat which is the way (one way) to what I believe to be the end of the trail.

Also, about the Mormon Flat crossing. I don't see any remains of the crossing or a trail leading up to it on any aerial maps. Was it (the crossing) below (closer to Phoenix) or above the MF dam (and now underwater)? Any help would be appreciated!

mineron,
Thank you for posting that 2nd story!
 

G'morning mineron: Two fine stories gracias *****.

Hmm $400 in those days @ $20 per once = 20 onces per ton = between $30,00 & 35,000 today. hmmmm good coffee money, buy oro lots of socks for coffee.

The heck with the LDM, let's go for the soldiers spring vein. Err, ah, is the general area outside of the extremely restricted area? I.E. can it be filed upon and worked?

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Here is another article that gets mixed into the Lost Dutchman story sometimes.

Arizona, prehistoric, aboriginal, pioneer, modern: the nation's Volume 2 By James H. McClintock
Phoenix Herald 1879

In the winter of '79 some trouble was stirred up among confiding tenderfeet by the publication of a story in the Phoenix Herald, printed as a fake so plainly transparent that he who ran might have read. It told of the arrival of a prospector from the depths of the Superstitions, whence he had been driven by pigmy Indians, who had swarmed out of the cliff dwellings. His partner had been killed, and he had escaped only by a miracle. But the couple had discovered some wonderful gold diggings, from which an almost impossible quantity of dust had been accumulated by a couple of days work. The story was widely copied, and from eastern points so many inquiries came that the Herald editor had to have a little slip printed to be sent back in reply. On the slip was the word "fake". The editor feared to even remain silent, for most of the letters told of the organization in eastern villages of parties of heavily-armed men to get the gold dust or die in the attempt, and there might have been dire consequences on the head of the imaginative journalist had Phoenix been reached by even one of the desperate rural eastern expeditious.
 

I like the idea of pigmy natives guarding the gold. It gets cold at night in the Sups and one or two positioned carefully in your sleeping bag might make all the difference in the world... especially if they are female. I am hopeful. While I have never seen one myself, I have seen the tracks of a very small deer... a "pygmy" deer. When I asked the experts they said that the tracks were from a Javelina... I have my doubts.. Someone told me that Clay W. even has a small pygmy deer horn in his collection. :wink:

Anyone know the correct date of Waltz's death?
 

Hal Croves said:
.... I have seen the tracks of a very small deer... a "pygmy" deer. When I asked the experts they said that the tracks were from a Javelina... I have my doubts.. Someone told me that Clay W. even has a small pygmy deer horn in his collection. ....
Click to expand...

Coues Deer - very small whitetail found in the southwest.
 

Hal Croves said:
I like the idea of pigmy natives guarding the gold. It gets cold at night in the Sups and one or two positioned carefully in your sleeping bag might make all the difference in the world... especially if they are female. I am hopeful. While I have never seen one myself, I have seen the tracks of a very small deer... a "pygmy" deer. When I asked the experts they said that the tracks were from a Javelina... I have my doubts.. Someone told me that Clay W. even has a small pygmy deer horn in his collection. :wink:

Anyone know the correct date of Waltz's death?
Click to expand...

October 25, 1891
 

Cubfan64,
This might belong in another thread but I am trying to find any link between DLM & the stone charts... so, I read somewhere that the date was Feb 22, but I have misplaced the link. Anyway, if Waltz died of "some" condition aggravated by his being caught in a 1891 flood.. the facts don't seem to add up. In 90 & 91 there were floods but they both occurred in Feb. Since Waltz was being cared for as a result of the flood, that rules out Feb 22 1890, but Feb 22 1891... was right smack in the middle of the event. I found no recorded flood for Sep/Oct 1891, however I have just started looking.

"1891 Feb. 18-26: The maximum flood of record for Maricopa County occurs on the Verde, Salt and Gila rivers. The Salt River has an estimated 300,000 cubic feet per second water flow, expanding to nearly three miles wide in the Phoenix area and rising to 18 feet above the wooden Arizona Diversion Dam at the confluence with the Verde River. Adobe homes along the Salt River are demolished and the railroad bridge between Tempe and Phoenix is destroyed, leaving Phoenix without a rail connection for three months. Remarkably, no fatalities are recorded."

"1890 Feb. 22: At Phoenix, the Salt River rises 17 feet in 15 hours. Heavy rains and melting snow cause the failure of Walnut Grove Dam on the Hassaympa River 30 miles north of Wickenburg, drowning 128 people and causing considerable property damage."

February is also a much more logical time as Waltz suffered from exposure. October seems unlikely. Has anyone else read about the Feb 22 date? If so please post the link! Thank you!

AZ February
Rainfall:
Average: 0.7 inches
Record: 4.7 inches(1905)
Temperature (degrees F):
Average High: 70.7 degrees
Lowest High: 46 degrees (1899, 1903)
Record High: 92 degrees (1921, 1986)
Average Low: 44.7 degrees
Highest Low: 65 degrees (1996)
Record Low: 24 degrees (1899, 1993)

AZ October
Rainfall:
Average: 0.7 inches
Record: 4.4 inches (1972)
Temperature (degrees F):
Average High: 88.1 degrees
Lowest High: 56 degrees (1959)
Record High: 107 degrees (1980)
Average Low: 60.8 degrees
Highest Low: 82 degrees (1987)
Record Low: 34 degrees (1900,1911)

Also, another date October 13, 1891 found here:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=6172003

Nine months after the flood Waltz dies of pneumonia? That just seems unlikely. What am I missing?
 

Hal,

I have copies of Frank Alkires letters for that year. I'm pretty sure he writes about the flooding. Have to dig them out sometime this week.

Take care,

Joe
 

cactusjumper said:
Hal,

Not sure how much help I can be. I don't believe the story of the deathbed confession was well known, at least as it's told in the Holmes Manuscript. In 1939 Barry Storm wrote that Waltz told Julia and Rhiney that
that he had murdered twice over the mine. Pure Storm bunk IMHO.

When Brownie Holmes first saw the manuscript, he denied ever seeing it. He denied writing it right up to his death. It seems likely that he did add the family history and his own experiences in hunting the LDM.

Good luck,

Joe
Click to expand...


Hey Joe,

So Brownie is denying writing it, but you think he added his family stories to it ONLY? Clay Worst tells the same exact story as the Manuscript when it comes to how Waltz supposedly found the mine, and actually adds some things to it...........So which parts do you believe Brownie was denying?

I'm just confused because the "Murderer Story", and the family search history is basically the whole book. So even though he SAID he didnt write it, it would seem that most of the information in it came from him. Maybe not the crap about Pigmy Indians and Jackalopes, but 3/4 of the book is family history, and how Waltz discovered the mine. (According to Dick) That makes it hard to believe that he didnt write it. (Or at least provide the material for it to someone)

Thanks,
Travis
 

Travis,

That's a good question.

My personal opinion is that Brownie did not write the manuscript and had never seen it prior to it's public exposure. I wasn't there, so I don't have any idea what was in the manuscript at that time. :dontknow:

Dr. Glover states that Brownie's family told him they had seen Brownie working on it at the kitchen table. Is it possible that the family had Brownies notes/journal and decided that the the manuscript had some value if published in book form? That value would be increased if they were to add material that was actually written by Brownie. :read2:

Keep in mind that he denied witting the manuscript right up to his death.

There are many people and organizations in Apache Junction, and other places, with a financial interest in keeping the LDM legend alive and growing. It's up to each of us to decide if what they are saying is the truth or just another shot in the LDM arm. :dontknow:

Take care,

Joe
 

Joe,

What you're saying makes as much sense as my own theory. But that means Clay Worst is lying....... I don't believe that, but that's what that would mean, at least the way I see it.

I personally think Brownie did write the Manuscript, or at least provided most of the material for it, even if he did deny it. My personal opinion is that he thought the Manuscript "gave away" more information than he intended, and that's the reason he denied writing it. I believe he passed his knowledge on to someone, and he didnt want the world to know that MOST of the information his father Dick received from Waltz was made public by this Manuscript.

Guess we'll find out someday which stories are true and which are not.......

Thanks again,
Travis
 

Travis,

Not saying that Clay is lying at all. Just saying what I believe from what I have read and been told. In addition to what I have already written, I don't believe that Dick Holmes knew Waltz personally or was at his deathbed. I have doubts about the source of that information.

The source for the story of Dick Holmes and Gidion Roberts being with Waltz when he died is highly suspect. Chances are that Gidion did not even exist? Here are some interesting questions:
_______________________________________________________________________

Ozarker Post subject: Roberts Family?Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:47 am


Part Timer

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:12 PM
Posts: 158 Hello Roger:

Well, I’m not even sure where to start. The family historian? Gideon? George Riley? The family farm? Matthew Robert’s relationship to the family? Family familiarity with Dick Holmes? With Jacob Waltz? The discovery of the richest gold mine in California, only to walk away from it for a mere pittance?

Where did any of this information come from? Was it the same source that placed Jacob Waltz in the back of Julia’s store? That had Christina Morrell interviewing Rhiney in 1933?

Who was Bertie Roberts? Did she even exist? Glover didn’t seem to think so. Corbin did.

Who was Margaret Roberts? Did she even exist? Corbin didn’t seem to think so. Glover did.

Who was the aunt that passed all this information along? Did she even exist? If so, did the information get modified after it left her hands?

How does Gideon O. Roberds (not Roberts) fit into all of this? He owned a lot just one block south and one block west of Julia’s in 1891 (his sister owned it for about 8 years before that). He was from Trinidad, in Las Animas County, Colorado, but spent every winter in Phoenix. He was a miner by trade. Dick Holmes’ lot was just south of his, but at a different time. Is it possible that Gideon O. Roberds and Gideon O. Roberts histories are getting confused, either mistakenly or intentionally? (For comparison, see Glover, page 199)

(BTW, Gideon Roberds lived until 1903).

Did Gideon Roberts even exist? If so, did he die in 1891? Who buried Gideon Roberts? Where was he buried? Where did the reference to the Pioneer Cemetery in Phoenix come from? When did that reference first come to light?

I guess my original question was one of frustration. I really didn’t expect any answers as there are none apparent. Even the questions above have no ready answers. It’s just another path of research that leaves me wondering whether there is any merit to some of the LDM backstory, and whether the Roberts family has been woven into the story through someone’s imagination.

Oh well.

Larry
______________________________________________

You wrote:

"I personally think Brownie did write the Manuscript, or at least provided most of the material for it, even if he did deny it. My personal opinion is that he thought the Manuscript "gave away" more information than he intended, and that's the reason he denied writing it. I believe he passed his knowledge on to someone, and he didnt want the world to know that MOST of the information his father Dick received from Waltz was made public by this Manuscript."

If you believe that Brownie wrote the manuscript on his kitchen table, as his family claimed, why would he put information in it that he wanted to keep secret? If you accept it as written, it was meant for publication.......from the start.

Take care,

Joe
 

Here's another part of the story:
_________________________

zentull
01-31-2008, 08:46 AM
Here is a 1903 account of the Lost Dutchman mine and a good accounting that the Holmes story in one form or another was well known by that time. According to this version Holmes was too afraid to search for the mine because of the Apaches and others searching for the mine. In this account the Apaches cover the mine and tunnel as well. A nice mixture of the two soldiers and massacre thrown in for good measure.

So far this is the earliest account I have that was published of the Holmes story and while it is different, it is interesting. I will just throw out a synopsis of the story for the time being.

Jake Miller and his nephew Jerry Miller were confederate soldiers and after the war they headed down to Mexico to avoid the union soldiers. They came upon the Peralta family in Sonora who were preparing for a trip to mines in the Arizona territory. The two went along with the party and Jake bought the rights to the mine after the trip with their share worth 60,000 dollars.

Jerry wanted to go to Santa Fe and record the claim after they got back, but Jake was against it and the two argued. Jerry took off and Jake trailed him to the spring by hidden water and shot him. Johnny Jones brother in law Gomez found the skull years later with a hole shot through the forehead.

Jake worked the mine for a bit and then headed into to Phoenix and hired a black woman to take care of him. He sold the gold to the Valley bank for 18,800 and took in a young Mexican named Rodriguez. Rodriguez was a bad man, drunk and gambling all the time.

One trip Jake found two soldiers working the mine from fort Huachuca who were on their way to fort McDowell. Jake killed both of them and buried them near the mine.

Just before Jake died a man named Dick Holmes slipped in and passed himself off as Rodriguez and got Jake to tell him where the mine was. He couldn’t get the map cause Rodriguez had hidden it. After Jake died Holmes got Rodriguez drunk and stole the map from him, but he was afraid to go after the mine cause Rodriguez would kill him.

Rodriguez went to Sonora to talk to the Peraltas but they were dead, but 2 packers knew where the mine was and they went there with him straight away. The mine was a round hole thirty or forty feet across and a tunnel over at one side. An Apache was watching them and ran and got more Apaches and they slaughtered the whole group.

The entire story encompasses 12 pages and relates a weird variation of the Doc Thorne story as well.
________________________________________________________

Joe
 

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