Sims Elys "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

[Cubfan64]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Oro - I'm going through Ely's book slower than I intended due to RL issues, but I recall you saying you wanted to talk about Panknin. I read through chapter 5 last night and wanted to see if you could elaborate on your questions regarding the man. I don't have enough information to question a lot of the Panknin story, but if you give me an idea of what questions you have regarding Ely's story about him, we can sure discuss it here

 

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[Blindbowman]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Paul,

"That's what I was wondering Joe thanks - so if I understand what you said, the "head" of West Boulder Canyon would be to the SE of Willow Spring just below where the Carney Springs trail drops down correct? Is there any chance whatsoever that Adolph Ruth's camp was really where Ely says it was - a little more than a quarter mile below the head of the canyon? I sorta doubt it having been through there - there ain't much flat area for camping."

Tricky question to answer. I believe this picture was labeled as "Ruth's last camp".

When it comes to Ely/Ruth, there are a number of "facts" that might raise an eyebrow. For instance, where Ruth's body was found. If you follow Ely, he places it right where the Stone Map Trail leaves West Boulder and heads into the saddle leading into Little Boulder and my heart formation.

Was Ely correct? If so, why was the location of the body changed in other accounts? I tend to think Ely was wrong, but it's another striking coincidence.

Take care,

Joe

"he places it right where the Stone Map Trail leaves West Boulder and heads into the saddle leading into Little Boulder and my heart formation."

ely was as wrong as you are by saying the stones fit that area with out proff ... where isyour proff the stone fit that area at all ..? other then your own craszy . the dagger points north theory i see no logical navigational refernces between the stones and that area at all.. i can poiunt out dozens of land marks and rocks that look like they fit the stones ,, so what .. that would make me no better then you at reading a map .. or the stones for that matter ..

so lets see how you come up with the dagger points north theory .. if this is what you base ely's locations on .. then lets see it ..

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Oro - I'm going through Ely's book slower than I intended due to RL issues, but I recall you saying you wanted to talk about Panknin. I read through chapter 5 last night and wanted to see if you could elaborate on your questions regarding the man. I don't have enough information to question a lot of the Panknin story, but if you give me an idea of what questions you have regarding Ely's story about him, we can sure discuss it here

I can't find the source but believe it was Kollenborn had said that Ely wrongly included Pankinin (Pankin, Paniken?) whom was a real Arizona pioneer who had nothing to do with the whole Two Soldiers story and was never a swamper at a saloon in Florence nor fled to Alaska. I could not find anything to prove or disprove it, but would not be the least surprised for falsehoods to have crept into the legend as some certainly did thanks in part to our treasure writers. I just wondered what you had found. The whole Two Soldiers story as being in the Superstitions is very questionable in my eyes, for if you trace the story it does not originate in the Superstitions at all; hence the mystery of why Panknin was written into the story at all. I am sure that others will totally disagree on the Two Soldiers story and insist it happened in the Superstitions.
Roy

 

[Loke]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

I am eagerly listening (and waiting) ... those two soldiers have 'got' to me somehow ...
Especially, maybe, because they have not been talked of that much ... it's like "ok, so what?"

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

I am eagerly listening (and waiting) ... those two soldiers have 'got' to me somehow ...
Especially, maybe, because they have not been talked of that much ... it's like "ok, so what?"

if i was to say the two soldiers story was true then you have to know they are not discribeing the mine it self ,they are discribeing the hoya .. so the story maybe right but the confussion of where they are talking about is clear to me when its not clear to others .. the next thing, is the story true or not .. and i would have to agree with Oro the story has a few common factors that show up in other stories...

i have not seen any real proff of this story being true other then the fact they do discribe the hoya in detail .. how they got those details is any ones guess..

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Hola amigo Loke!

At the risk of drifting far off topic, here is my point about the whole Two Soldiers/Pankinin story;

The most recent sources (Barry Storm,1937 Sims Ely, 1955) have the story set in the Superstitions;
The next most recent sources (eg John Mitchell,1913) have the story set in Four Peaks;
The oldest sources (old newspapers, 1880's) have the story in a completely different mountain range well north, and include the names of the soldiers, the creek near the vein, and in one case that I saw once and should have saved,a photo of the skeletal remains which clearly appear to have been soldiers.

What we find common to all sources (or most) are that the soldiers were stationed at Ft McDowell (one source had it as Ft Reno) and that they appeared in the settlement at Silver King to sell gold and purchase supplies. Ely seems to have introduced Pankinin as the "swamper" suspected of murdering the two soldiers, and in the oldest reports there was no doubt that it was Apaches or Yavapais who attacked them.

The evidence to "prove" that the Two Soldiers occurred in the Superstitions include the finding of a single set of human remains which had military buttons; zero to show this was a discharged soldier working a mine of any kind. Now I could be 100% wrong and the 2 soldiers was in the Superstitions, but I tend to judge by the oldest sources tending to be the closest to accurate, and with the story of the lost Two Soldiers mine, you can find versions in circulation that predate the Lost Dutchman - just that they are not set in the Superstitions. Is it possible there should be TWO stories of lost rich lode gold mines in which two soldiers were the discoverers and were murdered, left Ft McDowall and bought supplies at Silver King etc, of course it is possible but to me it appears that someone (Storm?) simply transplanted the older story into the Superstitions, with an eye to enhancing the legends and lore of the already mysterious mountains.

Blindbowman wrote

if i was to say the two soldiers story was true then you have to know they are not discribeing the mine it self ,they are discribeing the hoya .. so the story maybe right but the confussion of where they are talking about is clear to me when its not clear to others .. the next thing, is the story true or not .. and i would have to agree with Oro the story has a few common factors that show up in other stories...

i have not seen any real proff of this story being true other then the fact they do discribe the hoya in detail .. how they got those details is any ones guess.

A point that is curious (in my opinion) is that the ore brought out by the two soldiers was seen by several persons at the Silver King, the same place where Joe Deering brought out his specimens and no one has ever mentioned whether these ores were similar or quite different. As far as I know, no one has a sample of the ore brought out by the soldiers so no comparison with Waltz's ore is possible, but my money would be that they would NOT match - not even close.
Oroblanco

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Oro - I'm going through Ely's book slower than I intended due to RL issues, but I recall you saying you wanted to talk about Panknin. I read through chapter 5 last night and wanted to see if you could elaborate on your questions regarding the man. I don't have enough information to question a lot of the Panknin story, but if you give me an idea of what questions you have regarding Ely's story about him, we can sure discuss it here

I can't find the source but believe it was Kollenborn had said that Ely wrongly included Pankinin (Pankin, Paniken?) whom was a real Arizona pioneer who had nothing to do with the whole Two Soldiers story and was never a swamper at a saloon in Florence nor fled to Alaska. I could not find anything to prove or disprove it, but would not be the least surprised for falsehoods to have crept into the legend as some certainly did thanks in part to our treasure writers. I just wondered what you had found. The whole Two Soldiers story as being in the Superstitions is very questionable in my eyes, for if you trace the story it does not originate in the Superstitions at all; hence the mystery of why Panknin was written into the story at all. I am sure that others will totally disagree on the Two Soldiers story and insist it happened in the Superstitions.
Roy

I'll have to do some digging to get the root of this one Oro, but at the least it looks like we'll have a topic to talk about in a couple weeks .

I may be wrong, but I never interpretted Panknin as BEING the swamper from the story, but rather that he was a man who came to know a fellow in Alaska who may possibly have been the swamper from the story.

It wouldn't be the first time a story was misconstrued to place individuals in a location other than where it really happened, but in this case there would have to be a number of people who lied if the story of thr 2 soldiers is not true. The men from the Silver King, Bark who claimed to later dug up the grave, found a military button and reburied the bones to name just a few.

It sounds more like you think perhaps the whole 2 soldiers story is a fabrication on Ely and Bark's part rather than just an inaccuracy - seems like that's gonna be a tough one to prove.

I know another forum where a alot of discussions have taken place concerning Panknin and the 2 soldiers - I'll have to do some digging to see what some of those fellows may or may not have researched and dug up.

Though I will admit that I believe somewhere I read that Barry Storm admitted to someone that he made up the entire story in the first place.

 

[Loke]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

from Cubfan64:
Though I will admit that I believe somewhere I read that Barry Storm admitted to someone that he made up the entire story in the first place.

Ain't that just the thing with everything?? Stories get twisted with time - and by now we are looking at something absolutely nothing like the original!

I believe I have mentioned it before - but personally I think it would be a good idea to go all the way back to ole Jacob, put down what he said - follow it as well as possible and make a good note whenever stories no longer tally - that's when we get a new 'branch'.
Then we follow both branches untill they meet up again or untill they run into obvious discrepancies in which case we leave it be and follow the other branch.
It's almost like walking a binary tree, only *chuckles* there might be more than two branches at any junction.
To _my_ mind - we are discussing things at widely different branches, which seems a waste of time because we are so far apart (branchwise). It's almost like we are shouting to each other from different mountain-tops.

Hey BB - this ought to be right up your street with your advanced hardware and logical programming skills!!

I'm kinda throwing this out as a possible new 'topic' - let us all (and all our faculties) assemble at the bottom/start/beginning/whatever-you-may-call-it - and logically define and explore each path from there ...

What do yall think?

Per

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Cubfan wrote

I'll have to do some digging to get the root of this one Oro, but at the least it looks like we'll have a topic to talk about in a couple weeks Smiley.

I may be wrong, but I never interpretted Panknin as BEING the swamper from the story, but rather that he was a man who came to know a fellow in Alaska who may possibly have been the swamper from the story.

It wouldn't be the first time a story was misconstrued to place individuals in a location other than where it really happened, but in this case there would have to be a number of people who lied if the story of thr 2 soldiers is not true. The men from the Silver King, Bark who claimed to later dug up the grave, found a military button and reburied the bones to name just a few.

It sounds more like you think perhaps the whole 2 soldiers story is a fabrication on Ely and Bark's part rather than just an inaccuracy - seems like that's gonna be a tough one to prove.

I know another forum where a alot of discussions have taken place concerning Panknin and the 2 soldiers - I'll have to do some digging to see what some of those fellows may or may not have researched and dug up.

Though I will admit that I believe somewhere I read that Barry Storm admitted to someone that he made up the entire story in the first place.

Hola amigo!
My words are not coming across the way I intended; I am convinced the story of the lost Two Soldiers mine is absolutely true. The fact that so many people not only encountered two soldiers but also saw their rich gold ore helps support it being genuine (to me). The problem is that the story seems to have "drifted" from the original location (Sierra Anchas) to Four Peaks and finally to the Superstitions. The finding of what could have been a dead ex-soldier in the Superstitions was seen as proof that it happened there - but remember that many, many people were killed in the Apache/Yavapai/Navajo wars, especially small parties or single prospectors caught out in the wilderness whom were ambushed and died. The 'soldier' remains in the Superstitions could be any of hundreds of different men who went missing during the wars, and may or may not have been prospecting. To those who follow Ely, Storm etc this single set of skeletal remains with a soldier button (or buttons, I believe one source says there were several) proves it happened in the Superstitions - but the older story had two dead soldiers found not far from the creek, along with a bit of the ore and a stone with the name "SANDERS" carved into it.

Anyway not saying the lost Two Soldiers mine does not exist, only that it happened in the Sierra Anchas or Four Peaks and was reported as such prior to Storm & Ely, where the story has been re-located to the Supers.

Loke wrote

I'm kinda throwing this out as a possible new 'topic' - let us all (and all our faculties) assemble at the bottom/start/beginning/whatever-you-may-call-it - and logically define and explore each path from there ...

What do yall think?

I think it would make an interesting discussion, unfortunately for me getting the source material to hand is a bit of a problem and in a week or so I won't be able to get online very often so my participation will be limited for some time. I don't know that it is possible to prove this case either way, unless someone were to find a lost Two Soldiers mine in the Superstitions which would show that such a story did happen there. The Sanders stone was found near Coon creek in the Sierra Anchas, along with the pair of skeletons, I don't have Mitchell's version handy but don't recall any solid evidence to locate the mine in Four Peaks.
Roy

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

from Cubfan64:
Though I will admit that I believe somewhere I read that Barry Storm admitted to someone that he made up the entire story in the first place.

Ain't that just the thing with everything?? Stories get twisted with time - and by now we are looking at something absolutely nothing like the original!

I believe I have mentioned it before - but personally I think it would be a good idea to go all the way back to ole Jacob, put down what he said - follow it as well as possible and make a good note whenever stories no longer tally - that's when we get a new 'branch'.
Then we follow both branches untill they meet up again or untill they run into obvious discrepancies in which case we leave it be and follow the other branch.
It's almost like walking a binary tree, only *chuckles* there might be more than two branches at any junction.
To _my_ mind - we are discussing things at widely different branches, which seems a waste of time because we are so far apart (branchwise). It's almost like we are shouting to each other from different mountain-tops.

Hey BB - this ought to be right up your street with your advanced hardware and logical programming skills!!

I'm kinda throwing this out as a possible new 'topic' - let us all (and all our faculties) assemble at the bottom/start/beginning/whatever-you-may-call-it - and logically define and explore each path from there ...

What do yall think?

Per

Per - it's a fine idea except for one major missing detail...

Nobody alive really knows exactly what Waltz said - everything we have is at the very best 3rd hand information. Heck, before you even pick a path to start down, you're already at the first branch - do you start on the Holmes branch or the Julia/Rheiney branch?

What you'll probably find is that most people who try to go as far back as possible end up with the Ely/Bark information being the earliest 3rd hand accounts to start listening to, but part of the whole subject of this thread is to try to figure out how much credence one can REALLY put in Ely's account.

It's a never ending circle and what many folks will tell you is that eventually you either have to believe the Holmes story or the Julia/Rheiney story to have a place to start - the sucky thing about that is you have a 50:50 chance of choosing the wrong one and if you do, you spend your life researching a losing battle

I should have just stuck to metal detecting

 

[Loke]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

@Cubfan64
*lol* I guess you have hit the nail squarely on its head!

But - there's nothing wrong in doing that either - let us all follow the Holmes branch (since it hopefully will be the shortest one!!!) and if that runs into nothing - eventually - let us all return to the Julia/Rheiney and disregard absolutely anything that has to do with Holmes'.

Per

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Cubfan wrote

I'll have to do some digging to get the root of this one Oro, but at the least it looks like we'll have a topic to talk about in a couple weeks Smiley.

I may be wrong, but I never interpretted Panknin as BEING the swamper from the story, but rather that he was a man who came to know a fellow in Alaska who may possibly have been the swamper from the story.

It wouldn't be the first time a story was misconstrued to place individuals in a location other than where it really happened, but in this case there would have to be a number of people who lied if the story of thr 2 soldiers is not true. The men from the Silver King, Bark who claimed to later dug up the grave, found a military button and reburied the bones to name just a few.

It sounds more like you think perhaps the whole 2 soldiers story is a fabrication on Ely and Bark's part rather than just an inaccuracy - seems like that's gonna be a tough one to prove.

I know another forum where a alot of discussions have taken place concerning Panknin and the 2 soldiers - I'll have to do some digging to see what some of those fellows may or may not have researched and dug up.

Though I will admit that I believe somewhere I read that Barry Storm admitted to someone that he made up the entire story in the first place.

Hola amigo!
My words are not coming across the way I intended; I am convinced the story of the lost Two Soldiers mine is absolutely true. The fact that so many people not only encountered two soldiers but also saw their rich gold ore helps support it being genuine (to me). The problem is that the story seems to have "drifted" from the original location (Sierra Anchas) to Four Peaks and finally to the Superstitions. The finding of what could have been a dead ex-soldier in the Superstitions was seen as proof that it happened there - but remember that many, many people were killed in the Apache/Yavapai/Navajo wars, especially small parties or single prospectors caught out in the wilderness whom were ambushed and died. The 'soldier' remains in the Superstitions could be any of hundreds of different men who went missing during the wars, and may or may not have been prospecting. To those who follow Ely, Storm etc this single set of skeletal remains with a soldier button (or buttons, I believe one source says there were several) proves it happened in the Superstitions - but the older story had two dead soldiers found not far from the creek, along with a bit of the ore and a stone with the name "SANDERS" carved into it.

Anyway not saying the lost Two Soldiers mine does not exist, only that it happened in the Sierra Anchas or Four Peaks and was reported as such prior to Storm & Ely, where the story has been re-located to the Supers.

Loke wrote

I'm kinda throwing this out as a possible new 'topic' - let us all (and all our faculties) assemble at the bottom/start/beginning/whatever-you-may-call-it - and logically define and explore each path from there ...

What do yall think?

I think it would make an interesting discussion, unfortunately for me getting the source material to hand is a bit of a problem and in a week or so I won't be able to get online very often so my participation will be limited for some time. I don't know that it is possible to prove this case either way, unless someone were to find a lost Two Soldiers mine in the Superstitions which would show that such a story did happen there. The Sanders stone was found near Coon creek in the Sierra Anchas, along with the pair of skeletons, I don't have Mitchell's version handy but don't recall any solid evidence to locate the mine in Four Peaks.
Roy

No Oro - I understood your post, but I think my response was more vague than I meant it to be. You may very well be correct that the 2 Soldiers story was "moved" to the Superstitions at one time or another. I hadn't heard the story (or at least don't recall it) that there is documentation about 2 soldiers finding a mine in the Sierra Ancha's. I bet if I look around some I'll find that information, but if you happen to run across any memories rattling around that could point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it.

I'm hoping Joe jumps into this one because I'll bet he knows some of the discussions on the other forum that I mentioned. I wholeheartedly agree with you that a skeleton and some buttons found in the desert don't prove anything, but like I said before, if you think about the number of people involved in Ely's story, that's either a bunch of folks wfirst hand people who lied, or Ely misremembered or fabricated the location himself.

Remember, in Ely's book, he mentions that Bark relayed the story to him in the 1890's - that was well before Storm would have made it up. He also heard the story directly from Robert Bowen who was there at the Silver King when the boys arrived and told their story. Then he heard it again in person from A.J. Doran who was also there at the Silver King. Later, a local rancher (Whitlow) was asked to search the area the boys were supposed to be headed towards and found the one body and the soldier hat nearby - could have been any soldier of course, but still circumstantial. Then finally, Panknin arrives on the scene and Ely personally hears his story as well. All of these things are pretty much first hand accounts given directly to Sims Ely - if the story didn't take place in the Superstitions, the only conclusions one could draw is that either everyone lied to Ely, or Ely fabricated the location.

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

@Cubfan64
*lol* I guess you have hit the nail squarely on its head!

But - there's nothing wrong in doing that either - let us all follow the Holmes branch (since it hopefully will be the shortest one!!!) and if that runs into nothing - eventually - let us all return to the Julia/Rheiney and disregard absolutely anything that has to do with Holmes'.

Per

I may have to hold off on getting too involved in that sort of big discussion until early next year. To be honest, with as much as I have going on IRL, I barely have time to dig into the LDM stuff I need to work on myself

I think what you're suggesting has probably already been done, but it may not have been done in an organized a manner as you would like to see - it definnitely has it's merit.

By the way, did Joe ever give you the link to the other LDM forum? There's a TON of information there that revolves around all these topics we keep bringing up

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

i think you should think for your self .. .. who knows whats out there ,, everyone will see things diffrently ..
at times i run 30 hours without stoping other then getting my coffie or a head call .. .. its a matter of seeking the details .. no matter what it cost you...

i am not a rich man .. i have enough to live the way i like to .. and being a recluseive i dont really care if people under stand me or not .. i am living life the way i feel i want to ..take today .. i put the new side covers on my bike yesterday to day the new gromits show up and i take them back off and put the new ones on .. now no one would ever notice those old gromits were even on the bike but i know they were there ...

perfection .. no one teaches it .. state of mind no one teaches how to think .. being aware of the world around you .. where do you find a teacher for those things .. blindness taught me reality , how alone we really are

a person once ask me why dont you let people help you your blind .. i told them if i cant beat this on my own i am already dead ...


you dont know me .. no one here dose .. i would not ask for help i would get up in the night and and hold my head under running cold water . the pain was so bad i would bit a piece of wood and scream with out a sound .. i would not wake any of my family if i was lucky i would pass out ...

if you think i am just here to play games you are so wrong !


i have been to hell and back .. these mts are beautfull

a few months had past after my blindness and one morning , i was getting the kids off to school and my blury eye sight vanished and my sight was almost normal . i was standing by the front door crying , and my wife came up and ask me what was wrong .. i turn to tell her and that was the first time i had seen her face in about 5 months a few hours latter my sight vanished with out a reason .. i lost it
i walked around in the fields screaming at GOD

i had no idea where i was .i was never lost .. GOD knew right where i was .. the hole time , it no longer matter to me ..

when you face your self then you will under stand what i mean ...

dose it really matter if ely wrote the book to help others find the legend interesting . or if he wrote it because he felt the need to ...

he gave us his story .. his words .. well we learn from them .. who he was and what he knew ,, good point ..

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Paul,

At one time I could find Panknin on Ancestry.com That is no longer the case......Don't know what happened.

As you know, I have never really believed the Two Soldiers Story.

A good deal of information is on the LDM Forum, and there was a lot of discussion on Peter's defunct site. A good deal of the information came from Kraig Roberts. I have all of those discussions, but don't know how to create a link so others can view them.

I originally told about Barry Storm creating the story......related to the Superstition Mountains. Don Shade, who was a good friend of Storm's had this to say: "Five skeletons were found on the northern slope of Mount Ord in the Mazatzell Mountains. Two of the skeletons were thought to be the remains of soldiers who were last seen alive at Fort Reno in 1865. This incident was one of the favorite stories in the early days of Arizona. George Marlar thought they were Confederate soldiers. Among their belongings was a piece of white quartz which was laced with one third gold.

My friend, Barry Storm, moved the locale of the story down tothe Weavers Needle area. The romantic story tellers have since added many make-believe clues to this tale. The name of Charles Panknin was surreptitiously used in connection with this yarn."

That small passage can be found on page 99 of, "Esperanza" by Don Shade. Believe I have read the story elsewhere as well.

Peter had this to say on the LDM Forum:
_______________________________________

[Joe

Not so sure if Pankin (Panknin) was a ghost or not. What I know about him is the following:

The man in Barks account is Earnest Albert Panknin

Born about 1855 in South Carolina , died in Phoenix in 1934 of a heart
attack age 80. He's buried in Greenwood cemetery.He was what we call a security guard today, back then they were watchmen for
the business district that became known in Phoenix as the "deuce". A rough area of saloons, gambling houses and warehouses as well as Phoenix red light district. It was about 5 square block along the railroad tracks where America West arena is today.

Panknin was married briefly from about 1901-1903 but never had any children. Lora Pool was his wife and her family still lives in the old
Coronado District near downtown Phoenix. Brownie Holmes knew them quite well.

When Panknin died he was in business with Bill VanDoren, they were running somekind of a warehouse or garage in that district.

Panknin was real and appears to have had the adventures that were written about him. I wouldnt mind taking a gander at a certain map he supposedly possessed.

P]
________________________________________

The post can be found here: http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=690&p=9621&hilit=panknin#p9621

Believe that gives those interested a bit to research.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Cubfan wrote

No Oro - I understood your post, but I think my response was more vague than I meant it to be. You may very well be correct that the 2 Soldiers story was "moved" to the Superstitions at one time or another. I hadn't heard the story (or at least don't recall it) that there is documentation about 2 soldiers finding a mine in the Sierra Ancha's. I bet if I look around some I'll find that information, but if you happen to run across any memories rattling around that could point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it.

I'm hoping Joe jumps into this one because I'll bet he knows some of the discussions on the other forum that I mentioned. I wholeheartedly agree with you that a skeleton and some buttons found in the desert don't prove anything, but like I said before, if you think about the number of people involved in Ely's story, that's either a bunch of folks wfirst hand people who lied, or Ely misremembered or fabricated the location himself.

Remember, in Ely's book, he mentions that Bark relayed the story to him in the 1890's - that was well before Storm would have made it up. He also heard the story directly from Robert Bowen who was there at the Silver King when the boys arrived and told their story. Then he heard it again in person from A.J. Doran who was also there at the Silver King. Later, a local rancher (Whitlow) was asked to search the area the boys were supposed to be headed towards and found the one body and the soldier hat nearby - could have been any soldier of course, but still circumstantial. Then finally, Panknin arrives on the scene and Ely personally hears his story as well. All of these things are pretty much first hand accounts given directly to Sims Ely - if the story didn't take place in the Superstitions, the only conclusions one could draw is that either everyone lied to Ely, or Ely fabricated the location.

I have to disagree (respectfully) here on the conclusion of Ely being a liar or that someone lied to him - the only difference between the oldest report and Ely's is the location. No lying or purposeful deceit is required for a single detail (an important one) to get swapped out, it could be totally innocent.

You are correct, Ely names the swamper as a man named Robertson, and states the Ely told him of the tragedy of the two soldiers in the 1890s, but that the story did not make an impression on him until 1900. The Sanders story was run in the Arizona Star in 1912 and was "well known" at that time. Mitchell's story of the lost Pima mine/2 soldiers near Four Peaks is also known as the "two skeletons" mine for the Pimas finding two skeletons at the mine.
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

All,

Anyone who want's the files I have on Panknin or The Two Soldiers, only needs to ask, and I will email them to you. They are Microsoft Word Documents, so no guarantee you can get them open.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Loke]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

All,

Anyone who want's the files I have on Panknin or The Two Soldiers, only needs to ask, and I will email them to you. They are Microsoft Word Documents, so no guarantee you can get them open.

Take care,

Joe

Joe, plueeeeze - I'd like to get whatever you can 'part with' regarding the "two soldiers".
(I posted this about 40 mins ago - and somehow it has mysteriously disappeared)

Per

 

[rfjj]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

R
Reference Barry Storm creating the Soldiers Story:
What year did John Chuning die? Wasnt it around 1919 or 1920? That was some years before B Storm was in the mountains. John chuning based most of his search for the mine on info he received from Joe
Deering if Im remembering correctly, and Joe Deering looked for the mine based on the Two Soldiers story, and according to him {Joe Deering} found it. If this is correct, and Im going off memory here,{not to good anymore}

 

[rfjj]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

sorry about that, my computer has gotten touchy lately. My point is this would predate B storm and also give a little more credance to this Soldier story being in the Supes. Hope you can make sense of this mess. Any thoughts? Ralph Johnson