Sims Elys "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

[Twisted Fork]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Good probability that the Peraltas were at least aware of the stones, even if they didn't make them. I read somewhere that there is still records somewhere in Mexico of the Peralta family being undertakers at some point in time the therefore the tool format used in the stones. Seems to me that we are leaving out the dentist that fixed the Peralta boys teeth on an occasion or two and that he was paid in gold bearing ore.

All one has to do these days is find out if there are any legends around any old mining town of any worth, in an effort to locate any surviving stories of local inhabitants past or present, that may have found a single nugget laying on the ground, more or less right out in the open. I know for a fact that they salted the trail in a strategic manner so as to send a would be threat down the right trail to their death, expecting but not finding water on the way or worse.

 

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[Blindbowman]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

maybe the gold just fell out along the trail ... ...

 

[Twisted Fork]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Burros can wander around for some time for one reason or another and cover who knows how many miles. A hungry coyote could drag a sweet smelling leather saddle pack to who knows where if he came across one.

 

[coazon de oro]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Welcome to the Garden Ancientones, Most of the books were, or are written by people who have no idea where the mine is. Some have searched for decades, and want that effort to account for something. One can't blame them for trying to make a buck, but I for one wouldn't regard them as experts when they searched for so long and found nothing. They make you think they saw the mine but can only lead you down the garden path. These forums are that garden where everyone ends up questioning the clues, authors, and each other. In my opinion Ely's interviews of people who couldn't find anything, were useless. Homar P. Olivarez

 

[gollum]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Welcome to the Garden Ancientones, Most of the books were, or are written by people who have no idea where the mine is. Some have searched for decades, and want that effort to account for something. One can't blame them for trying to make a buck, but I for one wouldn't regard them as experts when they searched for so long and found nothing. They make you think they saw the mine but can only lead you down the garden path. These forums are that garden where everyone ends up questioning the clues, authors, and each other. In my opinion Ely's interviews of people who couldn't find anything, were useless. Homar P. Olivarez

USELESS? REALLY?

Let's see, Bark and Ely personally spoke with the only people still alive that knew Jacob Waltz. Consequently these were also two of the three people that Waltz said anything to about the location of his mine (if we count Dick Holmes).

Just because they were not able to interpret Waltz' information correctly doesn't make what he told them useless. It also doesn't make Bark and Ely's searches useless.

Lets take something from history. The wreck of the Atocha in 1622. Immediately following the hurricane, the Spanish sent recovery vessels to the last known location of the Atocha. They knew this spot from the survivors of the wreck. They were not able to recover hardly any of the known treasure (24 tons of silver bullion in 1038 ingots, 180,00 pesos of silver coins, 582 copper ingots, 125 gold bars and discs). For the next almost three hundred years, different people spent lifetimes and personal fortunes looking for the same ship to no avail. One day, Mel Fisher hires Dr. Eugene Lyon for $10,000 to go to Seville and search the records. Dr. Lyons found something that others had seen but not understood. The place where the Spanish sent their recovery vessels was nowhere near where everybody had recently been looking. Fisher's son Dirk went to the same place the Spanish did and found the first part of the wreck; nine bronze cannon. From there, he followed the debris trail to find the largest treasure ever (condensed version).

So, don't discount what others have done before you (even if they failed). Two people can look at the same thing and see two completely different things. One person might read Ely's Book and read one of his clues and disagree with his interpretation.

Only a person who has not read the book would say that it is useless. If you do have the book, maybe your comprehension isn't what it should be.

Best-Mike

 

[ancientones]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

I respect your reasons for the ore, but put another way....If someone produced ore that verified as LDM,
yet the mine itself had none of the clues other than the Needle to the South, would credit be given that this
is the mine?
None of the versions of how the Dutchman came upon this mine suggest he found a vein, he
came upon a mine that was being worked. Adolph Ruth knew the Sombrero and LDM were one in the same.
The Mexicans knew the mine contained Gold, that is why they gave him 'detailed' instructions/maps.
The Dutchman clues, re-told over the years, have not produced the mine because his clues are too vague. If
one spent the research time on the Indians and Mexicans history of the Sombrero site, one would find the 'details of clues,
markers, symbols' are more specific and detailed versus the LDM. If the Sombrero mine is located, and the clues
for that site fit, and all the Dutchman clues fit as well, the 'ore' will only prove there is still gold left.
The Horsehead/Sphynx are one in the same 500 yds. N of the mine across a gully. Below the mine ledge are 3
large stones: 1 shaped like a Cresent(East end), 100 ft. W is a Traingle shaped rock, 100 ft. S of this is a rock
shaped like a circle. The three form a triangle. These 3 large stones sit on top of flat stones and these were not
done by nature. East of the Cresent stone(between the Horsehead and mine, still below the ledge) are 4 large
flat stones with a smaller stone placed on top. These form a line pointing to the mine. Above the mine is a
cave at the base of a cliff. 30 ft. in front are 3 triangle shaped rocks, 1 perched on top of the other 2. Are these
known clues? Sure. But what if someone could give exact details, ft. or yd. distances of these clues, photos,
maybe even unknown clues like shaft symbols carved in the wall, concealled shafts, tailings piles? If one could
prove this is the Sombrero Mine, which has the 'documented' maps and clues, in detail, the clues told by others
that visited the site, 'ore' would not be needed to prove it. You can see the Apache/Military Trail from the mine,
sun setting to the West, Needle to the South, Hole in a crevice behind Bush on 12' ledge. Want more?

There is no exemption of acres set aside, no Senator with a plan. I am not aware of any Dutchhunter website or
group willing to do anything other than to discourage or require someone to produce 'ore', which is about gold
and not claiming a discovery of a mine. The history of this mine is easy to prove, the clues well documented and
detailed. The clues and maps to the site lead to the same place.
If someone had the photos, locations, symbols, markers, trails, clues of the Indians, Mexicans, Adolph Ruths
Mexican maps and directions/trail symbols leading to this site, NO Dutchman clues, would 'ore' be required to
verify this as the Peraltas Sombrero Mine? No.
I understand the 'requirement' to verify the LDM vein, but proving the documented history of the site must come
from many sources, ore can be one.

Please don't take my words harsh, been under alot of stress
B

 

[gollum]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Ancientones,

None of the versions of how the Dutchman came upon this mine suggest he found a vein, he
came upon a mine that was being worked. Adolph Ruth knew the Sombrero and LDM were one in the same.

Maybe before posting, you should get your facts straight. I won't go into detail, but leave it for you to find how wrong your post is.

Do you have ANY proof that Adolph Ruth knew any such thing? Other than the Latin Phrase "Veni, Vidi, Vici" written in his notepad, there is absolutely ZERO evidence to show that he ever found anything.

I think that when you are as short of facts as you are on a subject, maybe you should ask instead of stating something as fact.

YES, what was shown to Waltz by Peralta was indeed a pit mine with two separate veins of gold in different types of rock. THAT was the version told by Waltz himself.

Mike

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Gully Its Obvious Ancient Ones Is One Hundred Times Smarter Than You. You are about to back yourself into a corner. with no way out. But Go for it Ill Just watch the "SHOW" Best Luck to Ya Gully Wheeezzer Wrote: Maybe before posting, you should get your facts straight. I won't go into detail: Please Do Go Into Detail. You have Nothing To Hide Right?

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Im not talking about """"""Legal Permit""""""" Im talking about a discovery im talking about getting my discovery out the gold can stay for another 100 years and probably will. I really dont care, Im getting my discovery out "regardless of the GOLD GAME" sorry folks thats just the way it is, and i am more than happy and satisfied at this point in my discovery, and the public response is very good, i have no interest in gold, i have no interest in mining, """"i have major interest in my discovery"""" and there is always an endless amount, more satisfaction to be had. Ive Already One The Game Regardless Of A Few Nut "BAGS" that dissagree YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

If this doesn't get back on topic quickly, I'll just delete the thread and either start it again, or work on it for just myself.

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Ok inaccuracies Sims Ely. What else can you tell us Cub. I would like to here your personal views and why you think them to be important to you? Sincerely John V. Kemm

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Cubfan wrote

If this doesn't get back on topic quickly, I'll just delete the thread and either start it again, or work on it for just myself.

Please do not delete this thread, you have already started covering some of the inaccuracies and the correct information, I for one would love to read more of what you have found. Much of what has been posted here belongs elsewhere, and I am guilty of going off-topic so beg your indulgence. We may have to start ignoring some posts, as much as I hate to do that it may be the only way to have this discussion.

Santa Fe NM wrote

i have no interest in gold, i have no interest in mining,

Then why on Earth would you bother to look for the Lost Dutchman GOLD MINE? It is, a gold mine amigo, fame and fortune are available many other ways without anyone demanding to see any pesky gold ore to prove what you say you found. In the case of the LDM, without that danged ORE, you will find there are many people who can not believe what you say. The topic here is the inaccuracies found in Sims Ely's book on the Lost Dutchman mine, so perhaps your argument would be more effective in another thread? Do you have a copy of Sims Ely's book John?

I look forward in particular to the portion of Ely's book on Pankinin, as there is some conflicting info on him that I would like to see addressed. Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

 

[Twisted Fork]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

I'm sure there were other rags around that were in the works at the same time as his. Waltz was the talk of the West for some while. Not sure when the first newspaper article about it surfaced. It's all hearsay no mater how you look at it; a best seller doesn't necessarily mean anything formidable. I think one would and will get much farther with the basic facts pertaining to glyphs and the stone group. Hunters need to keep in mind that each and every single mine site they worked with, has a legend box; just like a road map does today. The tablets for instance are the legend box and the mountains themselves are the map with little ear marked notations know a stone monuments. These can be arranged at one side of a mountain; one that faces another lode on yet another separate mountain, quite some miles away. If you read them wrong (which is the Don's intention in the first place) you will wander around in the wrong section of color, also intended. Some markers may be in the mile ranges and still pertain to just a little section of canyon, yet off in the distance. Your working with cartoon characters in stone if you will. There is a plot to the story which you finally figure out at the end of the read and there is a plot at the end of the trail where the gold mine(s) rest; end of story. The writer you should be reading up on is not Ely, it should be reading sign of the Dons. The story is already laid out before you in stone.

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Roy Wrote: 'Then why on Earth would you bother to look for the Lost Dutchman GOLD MINE?' Well actually my dad died, and i was very depressed at the time, and to get my mind out of my depression i submersed myself """"spent all my waking hours studying"""" any, and all info i could get my hands on relating to the dutchman mine as well as the adams diggings, my immediate grandfather gave me many hints clues when i was growing up, and then after talking with a good friend about locating the mine in person with my personal study and knowledge, he suggested i try google earth first he said it was a free download and i should try it. "The Rest of Course Is History"

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

I'm sure there were other rags around that were in the works at the same time as his. Waltz was the talk of the West for some while. Not sure when the first newspaper article about it surfaced. It's all hearsay no mater how you look at it; a best seller doesn't necessarily mean anything formidable. I think one would and will get much farther with the basic facts pertaining to glyphs and the stone group. Hunters need to keep in mind that each and every single mine site they worked with, has a legend box; just like a road map does today. The tablets for instance are the legend box and the mountains themselves are the map with little ear marked notations know a stone monuments. These can be arranged at one side of a mountain; one that faces another lode on yet another separate mountain, quite some miles away. If you read them wrong (which is the Don's intention in the first place) you will wander around in the wrong section of color, also intended. Some markers may be in the mile ranges and still pertain to just a little section of canyon, yet off in the distance. Your working with cartoon characters in stone if you will. There is a plot to the story which you finally figure out at the end of the read and there is a plot at the end of the trail that where the gold mine(s) rest; end of story. The writer you should be reading up on is not Ely, it should be reading sign of the Dons. The story is already laid out before you in stone.

There is no reference to any stone maps in any source on Waltz or Weiser prior to Tumlinson finding the Peralta Stones amigo, so really the argument can be turned quite the other way - Waltz had no stone maps and he got gold from the mine; he tried to tell his friends how to get there and Sims Ely interviewed those friends and wrote a book about what they told him. This is as close as we can get to Jacob Waltz. Pierpont Bicknell wrote a couple of newspaper articles on the Lost Dutchman in (I think) 1804-95, and he interviewed Julia, but he also introduced much information that is not confirmed anywhere else. Those stone maps can lead you around in circles, when Waltz never said one word about them - so it is questionable whether they even existed in his time.

Santa Fe NM wrote

Roy Wrote: 'Then why on Earth would you bother to look for the Lost Dutchman GOLD MINE?' Well actually my dad died, and i was very depressed at the time, and to get my mind out of my depression i submersed myself """"spent all my waking hours studying"""" any, and all info i could get my hands on relating to the dutchman mine as well as the adams diggings, my immediate grandfather gave me many hints clues when i was growing up, and then after talking with a good friend about locating the mine in person with my personal study and knowledge, he suggested i try google earth first he said it was a free download and i should try it. "The Rest of Course Is History"

I am glad to hear that hunting for lost mines helped to bring you out of a depression, but if you are not interested in the gold or in mining, there are many other equally challenging puzzles to solve. Trying to claim that you found the Lost Dutchman gold mine, without having any gold to show, is going to be tough to get most people to believe you. It is already an uphill deal, is it not? Are you a treasure hunter or are you a celebrity wannabe, after all? They are two quite different things.
Oroblanco

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

"A Celebrity Treasure Hunter After All" Sincerely John V. Kemm Question: I wonder if ill be any good as an actor playing the part of my great grandfather Charles V., or do you recommend Adrian Grenier for that part?

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

"A Celebrity Treasure Hunter After All" Sincerely John V. Kemm Question: I wonder if ill be any good as an actor playng the part of my great grandfather Charles V., or do you recommend Adrian Grenier for that part?

There is nothing wrong with dreaming big dreams, until one can't tell the difference between dreams and reality. What does this have to do with the inaccuracies in Sims Ely's book on the Lost Dutchman John? I asked you earlier, do you have a copy of his book? Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Ok lets talk inaccuracies. What about them? and i told you i was submersed in research and ely sims was a part. inaccuracies please post them as you see them and we will discuss

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Santa Fe NM wrote

Ok lets talk inaccuracies. What about them? and i told you i was submersed in research and ely sims was a part. inaccuracies please post them as you see them and we will discuss

What about Pankinin? In your research, did you find Ely to be 100% accurate on Pankinin? Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

inaccuracies please post them as you see them and we will discuss