Sims Elys "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

“ ... but in the same year the cave was discovered by Jeff Adams, who was later sheriff at Phoenix ... “

(Lost Dutchman Mine, Page 158)

 

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[Oroblanco]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Adams later became sheriff of Maricopa county, not sheriff in Phoenix; and quite a curious character himself. He went to the trouble of writing a letter to Washington DC when Ruth's skull was being examined there, to argue that it must have been death by natural causes. Why should he have taken that trouble, or even bothered to write at all? It is suggestive that he had other motives.

<Anyone interested, a copy of the letter can be found on pages 308 and 309 of Helen Corbin’s book “The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz” or online at http://books.google.com/books?id=Tk...old mine arizona&pg=PA308#v=onepage&q&f=false>

Do you think that Ely wrote that Adams was later sheriff in Phoenix because he believed that, or a simple erroneous bit of info, or some other reason? Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

It is suggestive that he had other motives, and i believe ely was covering protecting himself most likely from the back lash of the powers that were.

 

[gollum]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

and if Ancientones is setting a trap for me it had better be baited with something more than I have seen so far.

Mike

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Our new friend A.N.C.ieNtOnes has some very intelligent points clearly already and very clear. To Any One, no hard feelings whatsoever.

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

“ ... but in the same year the cave was discovered by Jeff Adams, who was later sheriff at Phoenix ... “

(Lost Dutchman Mine, Page 158)

Unless I'm mistaken, the cave Jeff Adams located was the real "Skeleton Cave" which is located high up on the N side of the Salt River. Although I haven't gotten to this point of the book yet, I'm curious why when Ely describes how he and Bark could have gotten to the cave that he doesn't mention having to cross the Salt River. I don't know what the Salt River was like at that point of time, but it still seems odd to me that he just mentions being able to "cross the canyon at the bottom" but doesn't say anything about the Salt River flowing through that valley. I'm not convinced Ely is talking about the same cave as Skeleton Cave.

If he WAS describing it, I would stake my life on the fact that over the years of people metal detecting, exploring and otherwise checking out Skeleton Cave, there is nothing there that could still be hidden if there ever really was.

 

[Twisted Fork]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Oroblanco,

What I was trying to say is that none of the sources to do with Waltz can be trusted, even if Ely was an honest man; it is of course all still hearsay. The story of the Peraltas on the other hand, is a vivid and true history with documentation. I'm told that their children were killed just up the trail from where the tablets were found; more hearsay from another rag in the Phoenix archives of course. The problem with Ely is simply the fact that his knowledge is 3rd hand at best, and as far as Waltz's connection I see no reason for him to send his friends and neighbors to their death by deliberately delivering them into the hands of the Apache guards which is just what he would have been doing if he told them where it really was. Why don't you try just going straight up from where the tablets were buried like they point out with the big knife? You'll find some fancy river turns if one tries. Back in the day, folks would just point in a general direction without concern between 2 miles or 20 or more. Just the way like the Apache would. People used to walk to get anywhere, distance didn't mean much if you were headed somewhere up ahead. They simply walked until they found what they were looking for without a bearing on time.

 

[ancientones]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

I think I am the bait here.
Did Ruth find the mine? I don't care. But I know he was following detailed clues and
maps that were obtained from a Mexican family showing the way to the Sombrero Mine.
Why would a Mexican family still have these clues many years after the mine was vacated
by their desendants? Ruth did have a Dutchman clue as well, one he wrote down on paper.
Little information can be found by those that visited the Sombrero site before the Dutchman
(Indian and Mexican), yet this little information tells you more than the Dutchman clues.
If 'ore' is produced and verified, it still would not convince anyone the mine was found, it
could be a cache. If the mine the ore came from was revealed, and it did not have any
of the Dutchman clues, other than S. of the Needle, what then? If one can stand on one
spot on a ledge, and identify the site based on the many clues, maps, sketches, trails,
including the Dutchmans, and no gold, could one claim the Sombrero and not the LDM?
I have clues that I can place, identify, describe, even give you the color of the stones,
and enjoy the challenge to what I describe. Yes these clues are true and are at the site.
That is why they are all told concerning BOTH mines stories.
Besides, I enjoy this site and the conversations on the caches. Remember the
'Reverse Engineering'? If someone knew the Peralta Mule trails(2) that left the site
towards AJ, one would know the directions, distances, and markers used to go these ways.
This should make a couple of 'cache' maps and clues easier to understand.
B

 

[coazon de oro]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Welcome to the Garden Ancientones, Most of the books were, or are written by people who have no idea where the mine is. Some have searched for decades, and want that effort to account for something. One can't blame them for trying to make a buck, but I for one wouldn't regard them as experts when they searched for so long and found nothing. They make you think they saw the mine but can only lead you down the garden path. These forums are that garden where everyone ends up questioning the clues, authors, and each other. In my opinion Ely's interviews of people who couldn't find anything, were useless. Homar P. Olivarez

USELESS? REALLY?

Let's see, Bark and Ely personally spoke with the only people still alive that knew Jacob Waltz. Consequently these were also two of the three people that Waltz said anything to about the location of his mine (if we count Dick Holmes).

Just because they were not able to interpret Waltz' information correctly doesn't make what he told them useless. It also doesn't make Bark and Ely's searches useless.

Lets take something from history. The wreck of the Atocha in 1622. Immediately following the hurricane, the Spanish sent recovery vessels to the last known location of the Atocha. They knew this spot from the survivors of the wreck. They were not able to recover hardly any of the known treasure (24 tons of silver bullion in 1038 ingots, 180,00 pesos of silver coins, 582 copper ingots, 125 gold bars and discs). For the next almost three hundred years, different people spent lifetimes and personal fortunes looking for the same ship to no avail. One day, Mel Fisher hires Dr. Eugene Lyon for $10,000 to go to Seville and search the records. Dr. Lyons found something that others had seen but not understood. The place where the Spanish sent their recovery vessels was nowhere near where everybody had recently been looking. Fisher's son Dirk went to the same place the Spanish did and found the first part of the wreck; nine bronze cannon. From there, he followed the debris trail to find the largest treasure ever (condensed version).

So, don't discount what others have done before you (even if they failed). Two people can look at the same thing and see two completely different things. One person might read Ely's Book and read one of his clues and disagree with his interpretation.

Only a person who has not read the book would say that it is useless. If you do have the book, maybe your comprehension isn't what it should be.

Best-Mike Really Mike, That's my opinion. The Atocha was not really lost, it was forgotten. It had five survivors, the only reason it could not be salvaged was because it lay in about 55 feet of water and they didn't have suba gear at that time. They salvaged about half of the Santa Margarita because it lay in more shallow water. The Atocha was found right where the records indicated. That kind of recorded history is very useful indeed. On the other hand, Ely's recorded history deals survivors who knew Waltz, but never saw the mine. From what I understand from other writings is that he was going to take Julia to a cache when he was feeling better, thinking he was going to recover. Rhinehart he gave up on, as he was just a kid. He even asked Rhinehart, just what would you do with a mine? In my opinion Ely takes you down the garden path only to make a buck, after all he couldn't find anything. I don't discount his search, or effort because it keeps the legend alive. Homar P. Olivarez

 

[Springfield]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

......The Atocha was not really lost, it was forgotten. It had five survivors, the only reason it could not be salvaged was because it lay in about 55 feet of water and they didn't have suba gear at that time. They salvaged about half of the Santa Margarita because it lay in more shallow water. The Atocha was found right where the records indicated. That kind of recorded history is very useful indeed. On the other hand, Ely's recorded history deals survivors who knew Waltz, but never saw the mine. From what I understand from other writings is that he was going to take Julia to a cache when he was feeling better, thinking he was going to recover. Rhinehart he gave up on, as he was just a kid. He even asked Rhinehart, just what would you do with a mine? In my opinion Ely takes you down the garden path only to make a buck, after all he couldn't find anything. I don't discount his search, or effort because it keeps the legend alive. Homar P. Olivar

That's level-headed thinking.

People write treasure books for a variety of reasons, but generally speaking, it's to sell them. Nobody with proprietary information (first hand from the principal) is ever going to reveal it to the public. By definition, the rest is hearsay or speculation. Unfortunately, many have lost their lives to hearsay.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Oroblanco,

What I was trying to say is that none of the sources to do with Waltz can be trusted, even if Ely was an honest man; it is of course all still hearsay. The story of the Peraltas on the other hand, is a vivid and true history with documentation. I'm told that their children were killed just up the trail from where the tablets were found; more hearsay from another rag in the Phoenix archives of course. The problem with Ely is simply the fact that his knowledge is 3rd hand at best, and as far as Waltz's connection I see no reason for him to send his friends and neighbors to their death by deliberately delivering them into the hands of the Apache guards which is just what he would have been doing if he told them where it really was. Why don't you try just going straight up from where the tablets were buried like they point out with the big knife? You'll find some fancy river turns if one tries. Back in the day, folks would just point in a general direction without concern between 2 miles or 20 or more. Just the way like the Apache would. People used to walk to get anywhere, distance didn't mean much if you were headed somewhere up ahead. They simply walked until they found what they were looking for without a bearing on time.

Can you present some documentation of the story of the Peraltas, the massacre etc? I suspect you will find that task next to impossible; in fact there is a documentation of a massacre in the Superstitions, during the right time period, and the victims were Pimas; even the two survivors were Pima children, a boy and a girl. Ely's interviews with the people whom were known to be friends with, or at least well known to Jacob Waltz, are as close to Waltz as you can get. The whole Peralta legend is still just that - legend, and the fact that one of the key elements, <the massacre> can be shown to have been something quite different ought to cast doubt on the rest of the Peralta story as well.

......The Atocha was not really lost, it was forgotten. It had five survivors, the only reason it could not be salvaged was because it lay in about 55 feet of water and they didn't have suba gear at that time. They salvaged about half of the Santa Margarita because it lay in more shallow water. The Atocha was found right where the records indicated. That kind of recorded history is very useful indeed. On the other hand, Ely's recorded history deals survivors who knew Waltz, but never saw the mine. From what I understand from other writings is that he was going to take Julia to a cache when he was feeling better, thinking he was going to recover. Rhinehart he gave up on, as he was just a kid. He even asked Rhinehart, just what would you do with a mine? In my opinion Ely takes you down the garden path only to make a buck, after all he couldn't find anything. I don't discount his search, or effort because it keeps the legend alive. Homar P. Olivar

That's level-headed thinking.

People write treasure books for a variety of reasons, but generally speaking, it's to sell them. Nobody with proprietary information (first hand from the principal) is ever going to reveal it to the public. By definition, the rest is hearsay or speculation. Unfortunately, many have lost their lives to hearsay.

Your reasoning is sound, but seems to ignore some important factors in the case of Waltz. Waltz had the proprietary information you refer to, and he tried to tell his friends how to find the mine and/or the remaining cache. The fact that they failed to find it, does not mean that the information they were given was erroneous, false or deliberately misleading, it is very possible that they mis-understood or misinterpreted his meaning, or a key landmark (or more) etc. As in the case of the Atocha just referred to, the very same info was available to treasure hunters for centuries, but everyone simply mis-interpreted and misunderstood it.

I have to respectfully disagree on that part of people losing their lives to hearsay, in my view many lost their lives to being ill-prepared and foolish judgement on their part. The desert is not forgiving of errors or foolish behavior. That 'hearsay' may have been the information used by those poor people who perished, but it was their own mistakes that killed them in many cases.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

... People write treasure books for a variety of reasons, but generally speaking, it's to sell them. Nobody with proprietary information (first hand from the principal) is ever going to reveal it to the public. By definition, the rest is hearsay or speculation. Unfortunately, many have lost their lives to hearsay.

Your reasoning is sound, but seems to ignore some important factors in the case of Waltz. Waltz had the proprietary information you refer to, and he tried to tell his friends how to find the mine and/or the remaining cache. The fact that they failed to find it, does not mean that the information they were given was erroneous, false or deliberately misleading, it is very possible that they mis-understood or misinterpreted his meaning, or a key landmark (or more) etc. .....

That's exactly my point. If the story as told is true, the receivers of the Waltz information seem to have squandered their once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Of course, we don't know that the info given to them was accurate, but if we assume Waltz was forthcoming and it was true, Julia and Rhinehart were apparently not capable of exploiting it. Whenever Ely came on to the scene, all bets were off. Once you're two sets of lips past Waltz's, you're in trouble.

 

[gollum]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Springfield,

No, it was not level headed thinking nor sound reasoning. Nothing personal Homar, it's just that you couldn't be more mistaken. I will explain;

Homar,

This is not The Atocha Thread, but I think you forgot to include some portions of the Atocha Story that don't exactly support your statements.

The initial merchant ship that found the Atocha with masts and rigging sticking out of the water couldn't salvage her because the 55 foot depth was too great for holding their breath. In Havana there were proper salvage vessels and crews that the depth was not an issue. Before they could go out, another hurricane hit the area and ripped away any visible traces of the Atocha. Different people working for the Crown tried for the next ten years to salvage the Atocha, but were unsuccessful in even finding it. It was not until 350 years later that Dr Lyon read and understood where to look.

So, even the Crown, with all the official records failed to locate the last resting place of the Atocha. They had first hand reports recorded in the Archivo de los Indios. They had the five survivors. They had the crew of the merchant vessel that first tried to salvage the Atocha. The Spanish Government tried for ten years to salvage her. Private crews had tried as well for 350 years after. They all had the same access to the same testimonies and archival records. It took a pair of fresh eyes looking at the exact same evidence that everybody else had been looking at, with a fresh interpretation, to put Dirk Fisher on the spot and make history.

So now maybe you can try again to tell us how the Atocha was FORGOTTEN?

Now,

As for the contention that Sims Ely wrote his book for the money. THAT IS LUDICROUS! The man was ninety years old in a Sanatorium! What do you think he was going to do with the money? HAHAHA No, if he was going to write a Dutchman Book for the money, he would have done it many years earlier. He didn't write it earlier because all that information WAS proprietary between him and Jim Bark. He was still Dutch Hunting. When a person waits that long he is writing his legacy. People also tend to get more philanthropic when they know they are knocking on Death's Door. I think it is likely he wrote that so that if someone in the future found the DLM based on information in his book, he would be remembered. I'm sure there was also a good bit of ego involved in writing his book. After all, he had spent seventy years searching for the Dutchman's Mine, and he was, after all, a newspaperman. He wanted to tell his story.

Best-Mike

 

[Springfield]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

.... As for the contention that Sims Ely wrote his book for the money. THAT IS LUDICROUS! The man was ninety years old in a Sanatorium! What do you think he was going to do with the money? HAHAHA No, if he was going to write a Dutchman Book for the money, he would have done it many years earlier. He didn't write it earlier because all that information WAS proprietary between him and Jim Bark. He was still Dutch Hunting. When a person waits that long he is writing his legacy. People also tend to get more philanthropic when they know they are knocking on Death's Door. I think it is likely he wrote that so that if someone in the future found the DLM based on information in his book, he would be remembered. I'm sure there was also a good bit of ego involved in writing his book. After all, he had spent seventy years searching for the Dutchman's Mine, and he was, after all, a newspaperman. He wanted to tell his story.

Best-Mike

I guess I'll concede the point you've made, but it's also apparent to me that Ely didn't have the information necessary to locate the LDM, assuming of course that there was such a thing as the LDM. While I don't doubt that Ely acted in good faith - as you say, he didn't have anything to lose at the time he wrote the book - my contention remains unequivocal that nobody can expect true and reliable information regarding a 'lost mine' if he doesn't receive it from the one who 'lost' it. Human nature makes it an impossibility that Ely could have been given such a secret from a second party. The question to ponder is whether Waltz came clean on his 'deathbed' to the ones he told his story to. We'd like to assume he did because things get too cloudy otherwise, but we can't really know. Waltz may well have obtained his ore through means he never wanted revealed and his stories may have been nothing more that damage control for his reputation. Quien sabe?

 

[ancientones]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

The Atocha is a good example, the Spanish kept very accurate records, period.
Mexican(Spanish) history, not LDM stories, reflect hundreds of years in these
parts, many 'encounters' with the Apache(and others). The Peralta stones are
in Spanish, the Ruth clues are Spanish. Ruth did not take the risk(age, health,
time of year, alone) based off of LDM clues-these were always available.
The Ruth 'Spanish' clue concerning the trail and symbols is as told. A narrow S to
N flowing wash and a brushy wash coming in from the E. There is a hill between
the junction. The Mule trail crosses over the hill. At he top of the hill are 4 symbols,
one is a circle with a dot in the middle. The circle has a line pointing S(trail). These
are 100 ft. N of the trail. S of the trail, 20 ft., is a Spanish Trail marker(including Lichen).
The trail goes S after crossing the hill to the base of the funnel(pit).
There are several more symbols and trail markers along the way.
B
is there any 'easy' way to upload pcitures

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

is there any 'easy' way to upload pcitures

When your posting, the bottom left corner has a browse button, it will retrieve them from your hard drive by selection. And Thank You Again A N CieNt Ones Ps You can also post your pics on photobucket and give us a link like this http://s936.photobucket.com/albums/ad208/Truespectrum/

 

[gollum]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Let's start with the two versions (from Waltz' mouth) on how he came to have the mine:

1. Given title to mine by Don Miguel Peralta: This is the version he told Julia and Rhiney. Either this was true or ............ why would he tell a lie like that? To establish a moral, if not legal right to the mine in the eyes of the public at large. He was sure to have known that Julia and Rhiney's ownership was certain to be questioned and possibly fought over. If his story (which no one living could dispute) was believed, then that would cut down on the number of possible claimants later. Remember, when he told Julia this story, he didn't think he was going to die. He knew the story would get out, and wanted to protect himself.

2. Chased by Apache, then met and murdered Mexicans working the mine: If you believe the Dick Holmes Manuscript, then Waltz murdered the poor Mexicans working the mine. He also murdered several others in order to keep his mine a secret. He could never have let that story get out because whatever claim he might have had on the mine would have disappeared instantly.

I tend to believe the Holmes version of Waltz deathbed confession. While the Julia Thomas version is very romantic and establishes a good claim on the mine for Waltz, it is too good. I'm sure Waltz spent many years coming up with that story just in case his mine was ever found. It would give him a basis to fight for ownership in court.

If we read all the other reports of people who had interacted with Waltz in the mountains, the picture painted is more like that of the gold-obsessed killer of the Holmes Manuscript. Even telling a young Dick Holmes that he almost killed him, and would kill him if he followed him again. The old prospector John Pipps, who poached Waltz Mine and described how frightened he was of the old German (even though he was an old man).

My personal belief is that Waltz murdered the Mexicans working the mine and kept it for himself. I don't think it was THAT impossible to find, since by either version of the story we have a few people who found it over the years. In fact, Waltz was forced to hide his mine because he was afraid of it being found again. While I'm sure the mine is in some rough country and DIFFICULT to find, I think there must have been (at one time) a reason to take a certain trail from which his mine was visible.

........................ or as is usual in history; the real Waltz lay somewhere in between the forthright and honest Jacob and the gold-obsessed murderous Dutchman.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

The Atocha is a good example, the Spanish kept very accurate records, period.
Mexican(Spanish) history, not LDM stories, reflect hundreds of years in these
parts, many 'encounters' with the Apache(and others). The Peralta stones are
in Spanish, the Ruth clues are Spanish. Ruth did not take the risk(age, health,
time of year, alone) based off of LDM clues-these were always available.
The Ruth 'Spanish' clue concerning the trail and symbols is as told. A narrow S to
N flowing wash and a brushy wash coming in from the E. There is a hill between
the junction. The Mule trail crosses over the hill. At he top of the hill are 4 symbols,
one is a circle with a dot in the middle. The circle has a line pointing S(trail). These
are 100 ft. N of the trail. S of the trail, 20 ft., is a Spanish Trail marker(including Lichen).
The trail goes S after crossing the hill to the base of the funnel(pit).
There are several more symbols and trail markers along the way.
B
is there any 'easy' way to upload pcitures

WAY TO COMPLETELY MISS THE POINT!

I thought that I had stated it simply enough, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut.

Some people are completely dismissing clues and stories gathered up by people who have failed to find the DLM. They say those clues and stories are useless.

They want to completely dismiss what Julia and Rhiney told Ely and Bark because it was second hand information (only two levels of lips from Waltz to Ely or Bark, sorry).

My whole point of the Atocha story was to say not to dismiss those clues just because that person didn't find the DLM. Hell, with accurate records nobody was able to find the Atocha for 350 years.

It took:

A FRESH PAIR OF EYES AND A NEW INTERPRETATION OF WHAT THEY KNEW!

Does that register? Don't dismiss something just because they didn't find the treasure. Just look at those clues and stories with a fresh set of eyes. Everybody does the same thing over and over. They read the same stories. They read the same clues. They look at pictures and maps and try to place those clues and stories on that map.

One thing I can say for certain is that NOBODY will find the DLM without getting off their a$$e$. You will never solve ANYTHING with Google Earth.

Best-Mike

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

""""You will never solve ANYTHING with Google Earth."""" Is it HAAA HAAAA HAAAAA or YEEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWW

As it is written in the Zen Koan What is the sound of one hand Clapping? ANYTHING IS TRULY POSSIBLE AND YOU ARE LEARNING YOUNG JEDI

 

[coazon de oro]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Hello Mike, Don't worry about me taking things personal, I hope you don't either. I see no point in debating every single point of an opinion, as it leads nowhere in regards to new light. There are different versions on the stories about the Dutchman's lost mine, proving you can't believe everything you read. Only one version can be right. I happen to dismiss Ely's book because Julia and Rhinehart could not of known the salt mountains enough to comprehend any directions or landmarks, other than Weavers Needle. Very few places had names at that time, and only Weavers Needle appeared on the maps. Imagine trying to give directions to a woman and a boy that don't know the mountains, and without landmark names. Talk about muddled, that's why I do believe Waltz gave up, and did tell Julia he would take her later. I do understand your point on the Atocha, and I do believe the mine will be uncovered by a fresh pair of eyes. I have noticed however that when a fresh pair of eyes peek into the forums, they get poked like the three stooges by the lifers that have formed their own theory, these members are not open minded enough to let new light shine in. I never try to debunk any new theory no matter how wild I may think it is, this takes a lot of patience. Homar P. Olivarez