Sims Elys "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

[cactusjumper]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

R
Reference Barry Storm creating the Soldiers Story:
What year did John Chuning die? Wasnt it around 1919 or 1920? That was some years before B Storm was in the mountains. John chuning based most of his search for the mine on info he received from Joe
Deering if Im remembering correctly, and Joe Deering looked for the mine based on the Two Soldiers story, and according to him {Joe Deering} found it. If this is correct, and Im going off memory here,{not to good anymore}

rfjj,

It might be a good idea to reread Bark's account of the Joe Deering story. I am not sure that he was searching "based on the two Soldiers story". Could be wrong about that, but I will look at Bark's Notes when I get home tonight.

I can relate to the memory thingie.

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[rfjj]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Joe, I was working from memory there. I went back to Elys book, pp 75, 76 deering talks about hearing the soldiers story, etc. As convoluted as all these stories are though, I dont know how much value to put on any of it. Looking forward to seeing you at the Rendevous. Ralph Johnson

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Ralph,

Looking forward to seeing you at the Rendezvous as well.

It might be I am mistaken about what Joe Deering was reported to have said. It could also be, quite possible, that the Ely account and what Bark wrote are different. If that's the case, it would be a toss up as to which is accurate. My money would be on the Bark Notes.

My reasoning for going with the Bark Notes is........I believe there were copies that were out there before Spangler released his, possibly massaged, version.
If that's true and all accounts of the Deering story are identical, that might give his notes some extra believeability.

I have been told that Ely's book was lightly censored by Bark's family.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

R
Reference Barry Storm creating the Soldiers Story:
What year did John Chuning die? Wasnt it around 1919 or 1920? That was some years before B Storm was in the mountains. John chuning based most of his search for the mine on info he received from Joe
Deering if Im remembering correctly, and Joe Deering looked for the mine based on the Two Soldiers story, and according to him {Joe Deering} found it. If this is correct, and Im going off memory here,{not to good anymore}

rfjj,

It might be a good idea to reread Bark's account of the Joe Deering story. I am not sure that he was searching "based on the two Soldiers story". Could be wrong about that, but I will look at Bark's Notes when I get home tonight.

I can relate to the memory thingie.

Joe Ribaudo

"I can relate to the memory thingie."

now you confirm it .. thats a start joe .. think one day at a time .. you may recover you may not .. we like ya just the way you are ...

have you for got wich way the dagger points yet ......lol

latter ..

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Ralph,

Looking forward to seeing you at the Rendezvous as well.

It might be I am mistaken about what Joe Deering was reported to have said. It could also be, quite possible, that the Ely account and what Bark wrote are different. If that's the case, it would be a toss up as to which is accurate. My money would be on the Bark Notes.

My reasoning for going with the Bark Notes is........I believe there were copies that were out there before Spangler released his, possibly massaged, version.
If that's true and all accounts of the Deering story are identical, that might give his notes some extra believeability.

I have been told that Ely's book was lightly censored by Bark's family.

Take care,

Joe

joe were do you see any conflect between the two storyies .. i read both and i can see some mis quoted words ,.. but but accounts have a lot in common.. and more so when you know why ...and how they match mine it self ..

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

R
Reference Barry Storm creating the Soldiers Story:
What year did John Chuning die? Wasnt it around 1919 or 1920? That was some years before B Storm was in the mountains. John chuning based most of his search for the mine on info he received from Joe
Deering if Im remembering correctly, and Joe Deering looked for the mine based on the Two Soldiers story, and according to him {Joe Deering} found it. If this is correct, and Im going off memory here,{not to good anymore}

Deering was (according to the story he told) working as a prospector in Arizona, having been financed by a grubstake partner <a man named Thompson>; he lost his burro one day and accidentally found the mine. He died in September of 1885 due to injuries received while working at the Silver King, trying to kill time until his partner should arrive. He had been prospecting in California, Colorado and Arizona during the term of his grubstake agreement and by the terms of the grubstake law, his partner was entitled to one-half ownership in any mineral discoveries he should make. He told Brown that he had heard the story of the two soldiers, which brought him to the area. As this dates to 1885, it does predate Storm, but does not prove that it happened in the Superstitions since the Sierra Anchas version dates to the 1860's.

Many people associate Deering's mine with the Lost Dutchman yet this may well be un-justified; Deering made no mention of any Dutchman story, only the two soldiers. Also we may note that he came to Silver King to seek work, even though he was not broke. Look at your map and see where the old mine and village were; now 'zoom out' and see where Ft McDowell is and the Sierra Anchas. He also mentioned that there was a considerable amount of rich ore laying on the surface at the mine, which is hardly in keeping with Waltz's mine. We could also note that Deering never mentioned a single bit of evidence to prove the mine he found had ever been 'home' for soldiers nor any human remains. We treasure hunters are often guilty of making connections or connecting dots that the evidence doesn't actually show.

Oroblanco

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Ralph,

Looking forward to seeing you at the Rendezvous as well.

It might be I am mistaken about what Joe Deering was reported to have said. It could also be, quite possible, that the Ely account and what Bark wrote are different. If that's the case, it would be a toss up as to which is accurate. My money would be on the Bark Notes.

My reasoning for going with the Bark Notes is........I believe there were copies that were out there before Spangler released his, possibly massaged, version.
If that's true and all accounts of the Deering story are identical, that might give his notes some extra believeability.

I have been told that Ely's book was lightly censored by Bark's family.

Take care,

Joe

Ok - looks like I have a new topic to ask you about in a couple weeks! As far as Ely's book being "lightly" censored, that word may be a little less harsh than what I've been thinking :P

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Ralph,

As I understand it, all of the different versions of the Bark Notes are essentially the same.....in content. The difference is in how they are formatted. All of the versions I have tell the same Joe Deering story. Nowhere in that story is there any mention of the Two Soldiers.

In addition, there is no mention of his waiting for a partner. On the other hand, his one year agreement with someone in Colorado, who had grubstaked him, was due to run out in 1-month. Even though he had found the mine in that one-year period, he was going to sit on the find and, basically, cheat that partner out of his fair share.

I would guess that some of the "conversations" that Ely injected into his stories might have been literary license. This story is one of the places where Bark and Ely tell markedly different tales. You will have to choose your own trail here.

It seems, this time, that my memory was correct.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Ralph,

As I understand it, all of the different versions of the Bark Notes are essentially the same.....in content. The difference is in how they are formatted. All of the versions I have tell the same Joe Deering story. Nowhere in that story is there any mention of the Two Soldiers.

In addition, there is no mention of his waiting for a partner. On the other hand, his one year agreement with someone in Colorado, who had grubstaked him, was due to run out in 1-month. Even though he had found the mine in that one-year period, he was going to sit on the find and, basically, cheat that partner out of his fair share.

I would guess that some of the "conversations" that Ely injected into his stories might have been literary license. This story is one of the places where Bark and Ely tell markedly different tales. You will have to choose your own trail here.

It seems, this time, that my memory was correct.

Take care,

Joe

joe

really dont think there is a choice here at all for me at lest ... ely was writting a book as a reported ... yet i can in fact confirm barks note as true ..in fact i will say one part of those notes is "dead on the money" ,,,


yet i will say the only part of the two solder story i might believe was that i belive what they were discribeing was not the mine but the Hoya .. now i dont have enough back ground details on the hoya.. if my sighting in 1979 was the hoya .. it is in fact open and still a very rich coverd deposit , and this would make me think their wording was correct to the hoya .. it is out right not the LDM it self ..

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

In this part of our subject matter, we also find another of those inaccuracies in Ely; he dates Joe Deering's arrival, discovery and death to 1881, yet we know that it was 1885; unless the newspaper published it four years late as it was run in the Oct 2 issue of White or Pinal County Review, page 3 col 2 as reproduced on page 146 of Helen Corbin's book "The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold", compare with Ely "The Lost Dutchman" page 63 <*I think*> now this could be simple error or deliberate falsehood, but I classify as error.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Roy,

It has always been my contention that the Joe Deering and Two Soldiers stories were created using real incidents and people, who had nothing to do with the stories as they were told.

This is something that has been going on in the Dutch Hunting Community, as well as others, since Hector was a pup. The prevaricator with the best knowledge of real history becomes the most believable. The man, or woman, who can weave real history into their fabrications is very hard to expose.

I have been friends with a number of "Dutchman" authors. I believe them to all be honest people, but they were only as good as their sources. One such popular source, that I called friend, has been lying to my face, as well as behind my back, since 2002. It seems to be a sickness that goes with the territory.

Once a story gets floated around for a bit, the "Hell I Was Their" syndrome grows the original story to larger than life proportions. I believe that's what happened to these two stories. No one was immune to repeating them and adding their own flourishes. My mind immediately goes to the Frank Alkire story. A wonderful blend of fact and pure fiction.

Who's to say that Bark and Ely didn't fall victim to the same malady?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Hi Joe,

I see these two stories a bit differently but have no disagreement over your point about stories gaining root and branch as they pass around. Deering I tend to credit, the 2 soldiers part I have trouble with due to what appears to be a transplant job. It can happen quite innocently too; I have seen it happen in modern time - a person has an interesting tale to tell at some store, saloon, restaurant etc; people overhear MOST of the story and will fill in the gaps with their assumptions; for instance the two soldiers, discharged from Ft McDowell - they could have been discharged from a different fort, the person hearing the tale presumes that "fort" must be referring to McDowell and in re-telling the story fills in his new detail that is actually wrong but we can't trace it now and the person telling it can be the most honest, most truthful person there is but his assumption about which fort was being referred to has now become positively identified with McDowell when it could have been Weaver or Apache or Grant.

This is one of the foibles of the treasure hunting business, we all have to sort through.
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

HI. may I point out just how correct Oro is. If the facts were as posted, or known, the lost factor would have been eliminated long ago leaving nothing for us today.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Hi Joe,

I see these two stories a bit differently but have no disagreement over your point about stories gaining root and branch as they pass around. Deering I tend to credit, the 2 soldiers part I have trouble with due to what appears to be a transplant job. It can happen quite innocently too; I have seen it happen in modern time - a person has an interesting tale to tell at some store, saloon, restaurant etc; people overhear MOST of the story and will fill in the gaps with their assumptions; for instance the two soldiers, discharged from Ft McDowell - they could have been discharged from a different fort, the person hearing the tale presumes that "fort" must be referring to McDowell and in re-telling the story fills in his new detail that is actually wrong but we can't trace it now and the person telling it can be the most honest, most truthful person there is but his assumption about which fort was being referred to has now become positively identified with McDowell when it could have been Weaver or Apache or Grant.

This is one of the foibles of the treasure hunting business, we all have to sort through.
Roy

Oro, I also wonder quite a bit about the whole "swamper" part of the story. If you read that account in Ely's book, you notice all sorts of very specific information given while there's really not as much specific about the 2 soldiers themselves. I can very easily see a Bowen or Doran going along with a rumor mill or even thinking up the theory of the swamper on their own and then just building a story around it to make it more interesting.

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

joe\; "I have been friends with a number of "Dutchman" authors. I believe them to all be honest people"

and that may just be the reason you think the "dagger points north "...LOL

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Cubfan wrote

Oro, I also wonder quite a bit about the whole "swamper" part of the story. If you read that account in Ely's book, you notice all sorts of very specific information given while there's really not as much specific about the 2 soldiers themselves. I can very easily see a Bowen or Doran going along with a rumor mill or even thinking up the theory of the swamper on their own and then just building a story around it to make it more interesting.

It is easy to guess how such an element could graft into the story - if for example there really were a swamper with a twisted or club foot working at a saloon, and his behavior matched what we have in the Ely version, the swamper could be a totally innocent man with a gambling habit; his excuse that he had won the money he was seen gambling with could have been true and he may have been missing as a coincidence. It is hard to imagine a person with a deformed foot, that had trouble finding a job due to his physical ailment (thus being forced to work at the nasty job of swamper) being able to run down two healthy, probably physically fit ex-soldiers heading into rough country. People could have seen the purely coincidental actions of the swamper and made the connections to the two soldiers on assumptions alone.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Paul,

"I'm not convinced that at Ely's advanced age, his potential state of mind (based on where he was living while writing the book) and whatever editorial work may have been done on the manuscript prior to publishing, that I can believe all the "facts" it states."

I believe Sims Ely started writing his book in late 1944, early 1945. His mind seemed clear and focused in the letter he typed to Erwin Ruth on Nov. 14, 1944. It's possible that, for whatever reason, he put it off for many years.
It would have been way out of character for the man.

In that letter he states: "I shall stay at the above address--which is a Cleveland suburb with its own postoffice--for some weeks, and then I shall proceed to Phoenix , for a visit of two or three months with my other son and his family. I have definitely decided that during this absence from the Washington office, I shall write the history of the "Lost Dutchman"--because I doubtless know that history more accurately than anybody now living...."

His strong signature is at the bottom of the letter. Ten years later, on the ninth of March, 1954 he inscribed the following to Irene Sheldon on the title page of his first edition:

"For Irene Sheldon with all very good wishes", followed by his signature and the date below. It was all a slight bit shaky but clearly legible.

Having worked personally with many people suffering severe dementia, as well as Alzheimer's, I don't believe any of them could have achieved such an accurate inscription that close to death.

Take care,

Joe