Sims Elys "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

[gollum]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Hello Mike, Don't worry about me taking things personal, I hope you don't either. I see no point in debating every single point of an opinion, as it leads nowhere in regards to new light. There are different versions on the stories about the Dutchman's lost mine, proving you can't believe everything you read. Only one version can be right. I happen to dismiss Ely's book because Julia and Rhinehart could not of known the salt mountains enough to comprehend any directions or landmarks, other than Weavers Needle. Very few places had names at that time, and only Weavers Needle appeared on the maps. Imagine trying to give directions to a woman and a boy that don't know the mountains, and without landmark names. Talk about muddled, that's why I do believe Waltz gave up, and did tell Julia he would take her later. I do understand your point on the Atocha, and I do believe the mine will be uncovered by a fresh pair of eyes. I have noticed however that when a fresh pair of eyes peek into the forums, they get poked like the three stooges by the lifers that have formed their own theory, these members are not open minded enough to let new light shine in. I never try to debunk any new theory no matter how wild I may think it is, this takes a lot of patience. Homar P. Olivarez

I don't take things personally unless that's how they are meant. HAHAHA If I was getting personal everyone would know it. It has happened before several times.

You state that you dismiss Ely's Book because of what Julia and Rhiney said. That again tells me that you have not read the book. In the title alone it tells you that it is a synopsis of his and Jim Bark's SEVENTY YEAR search for the lost mine. Do you understand how much information is in there besides what Julia and Rhiney said? HAHAHA

Also, they didn't have to know ANYTHING about the Supers to remember what Waltz said to them.

Feel free to read or not anything you want, but at this rate, you will be dismissing a LOT of good information.

Best-Mike

 

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[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Hello Mike, Don't worry about me taking things personal, I hope you don't either. I see no point in debating every single point of an opinion, as it leads nowhere in regards to new light. There are different versions on the stories about the Dutchman's lost mine, proving you can't believe everything you read. Only one version can be right. I happen to dismiss Ely's book because Julia and Rhinehart could not of known the salt mountains enough to comprehend any directions or landmarks, other than Weavers Needle. Very few places had names at that time, and only Weavers Needle appeared on the maps. Imagine trying to give directions to a woman and a boy that don't know the mountains, and without landmark names. Talk about muddled, that's why I do believe Waltz gave up, and did tell Julia he would take her later. I do understand your point on the Atocha, and I do believe the mine will be uncovered by a fresh pair of eyes. I have noticed however that when a fresh pair of eyes peek into the forums, they get poked like the three stooges by the lifers that have formed their own theory, these members are not open minded enough to let new light shine in. I never try to debunk any new theory no matter how wild I may think it is, this takes a lot of patience. Homar P. Olivarez

VERY WELL STATED CORAZON 'BRAVO'

 

[SGnAZ]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

I thought Erwin Ruth was a meat inspector not his dad.Or they both were and I have my "Ruths" mixed up.

Hi Steve, I don't have my notes in front of me at the moment regarding Erwin Ruth, but Erwin followed in his father's footsteps at least for a little while in the veterinary medicine field. I got the distinct impression that he wasn't all that interested in doing the type of REAL work it entailed by reading his records which were less than stellar.

Erwin had ALOT of occupations in his life - I'll try to look up what I have documented and get back to you. I recall him being the head of the narcotics division for the Boston FBI, he ran a booking agency for vaudeville acts in Canada, he supposedly either helped eradicate ticks in Texas/Mexico, or helped inspect/monitor the beef being sold during the Mexican Revolution, he appears to have been interested magensium mine holdings, and a few other such things. Someone (I don't recall if it was Clay Worst or not) described him in the days he was in AZ during his father's disappearance as a "dandy." I'd say from what I've read and what I know of that word at that time, it's a pretty accurate description.

Thanks Paul.I said that because I remember Erwin being in Mexico inspecting beef,I believe I read that on another-now defunct-website.Maybe it was in the Worst/Ruth letters,fascinating reading.

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

I thought Erwin Ruth was a meat inspector not his dad.Or they both were and I have my "Ruths" mixed up.

Hi Steve, I don't have my notes in front of me at the moment regarding Erwin Ruth, but Erwin followed in his father's footsteps at least for a little while in the veterinary medicine field. I got the distinct impression that he wasn't all that interested in doing the type of REAL work it entailed by reading his records which were less than stellar.

Erwin had ALOT of occupations in his life - I'll try to look up what I have documented and get back to you. I recall him being the head of the narcotics division for the Boston FBI, he ran a booking agency for vaudeville acts in Canada, he supposedly either helped eradicate ticks in Texas/Mexico, or helped inspect/monitor the beef being sold during the Mexican Revolution, he appears to have been interested magensium mine holdings, and a few other such things. Someone (I don't recall if it was Clay Worst or not) described him in the days he was in AZ during his father's disappearance as a "dandy." I'd say from what I've read and what I know of that word at that time, it's a pretty accurate description.

Thanks Paul.I said that because I remember Erwin being in Mexico inspecting beef,I believe I read that on another-now defunct-website.Maybe it was in the Worst/Ruth letters,fascinating reading.

Hi Gary,

It's easy to get Erwin and Adolph confused during a short time period where they were both working for the same Bureau in the US Government. In fact, at one point I recall that something ended up in Adolph's work record that had to be corrected later because it was actually referencing Erwin's work record.

This is just my personal opinion, but I get the feeling that Erwin possibly began his career trying to follow in his father's footsteps - either as a way to please his father or just because he thought it was the right thing to do. If you ever get a chance to read his work records in that capacity, you'll quickly realize that Erwin simply wasn't cut out for the work. One can tell he didn't like the conditions, didn't see interested in doing the hands on work and quite simply wasn't very good at it. He received more than one reprimand as I recall. He seemed to be the kind of person that really relished the spotlight and was rather "self important" - he definitely went on to bigger and better things than inspecting meat.

 

[Twisted Fork]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

You'll only need a crane to get into it; nothing fancy. Some rocks are verrry heavy. You'll know them when you gaze upon them and realize that an ancient river does not drop rocks on the wrong side of a slope; the one where they appear to have been moved from, but man does given a good enough reason. Crafty

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Twisted Fork wrote

You'll know them when you gaze upon them and realize that an ancient river does not drop rocks on the wrong side of a slope; the one where they appear to have been moved from, but man does given a good enough reason. Crafty

Well, sometimes glaciers drop rocks in the most unusual places, known as "erratics" by geologists. How would you tell the difference between a glacially-deposited river rock, and one placed there by a party of Dons?
Oroblanco

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

lol the dons are lacy and would not carry a big rock anywhere .. they want someone else to do the hard work .. get real ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

lol the dons are lacy and would not carry a big rock anywhere .. they want someone else to do the hard work .. get real ...

Too many natural oddities of stones left or carved by natural processes alone, are easily and commonly mistaken by treasure hunters as something done by man. To leave such a giant stone marker in plain sight would be like putting up flashing billboards advertising the presence of the mine to anyone and everyone passing by, an open invitation to come and steal all the gold or silver. if you would stop and think about it a moment, you just might agree.

This reply and the several previous really belong in the Peralta stones thread, my apologies Paul for continuing to go off-topic, and I now have our copy of Ely's book close at hand so I look forward to reading more. Thank you for your patience and in advance;
Oroblanco

 

[ancientones]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Thanks for the upload help, hope I get it right.
I myself would never go looking for this mine, I would follow the footsteps of
hundreds before. I would, however, make 8 attempts to get to one spot in the
Superstition Wilderness to obtain some pictures to verify what I already knew.
I have 55 years in Az. and Mr. Catclaw and I go way back.
The pic is a bunch of rocks and I know you understand why I cropped it.
Are these Spanish symbols(cresent, triangle. circle)? I can only go by what I
have read in the many stories, but its below the mine, they fit the description,
and are these natural laying? Now put the Horsehead(200 yds N), ledge(100 yds E),
penisulas, 12' ledge, crevice, Y gully, etc., etc. etc. As stated before, many of
the clues can be recognized, depending on how the clue changed during the
re-telling over the years. At the site, not scattered about the countryside.
Symbols are everywhere if one knows what to look for.

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

This isn't an inaccuracy as much as it is just a question. Page 7 states the following:

"Since the camp was little more than a quarter of a mile from the canyon head and it's walls were visible in detail, it was necessary only to search lower down."

Dumb question, but when it says "canyon head," which end of the canyon would that be? In the context of Willow Spring in West Boulder Canyon, does this mean Tex first searched to the SE, or does it mean he continued on to the NW?

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Paul,

The head of the canyon would be the upper part, but I believe the distance mentioned was in error.

Take care,

Joe

 

[NativeOne]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Thanks for the upload help, hope I get it right.
I myself would never go looking for this mine, I would follow the footsteps of
hundreds before. I would, however, make 8 attempts to get to one spot in the
Superstition Wilderness to obtain some pictures to verify what I already knew.
I have 55 years in Az. and Mr. Catclaw and I go way back.
The pic is a bunch of rocks and I know you understand why I cropped it.
Are these Spanish symbols(cresent, triangle. circle)? I can only go by what I
have read in the many stories, but its below the mine, they fit the description,
and are these natural laying? Now put the Horsehead(200 yds N), ledge(100 yds E),
--deleted--ulas, 12' ledge, crevice, Y gully, etc., etc. etc. As stated before, many of
the clues can be recognized, depending on how the clue changed during the
re-telling over the years. At the site, not scattered about the countryside.
Symbols are everywhere if one knows what to look for.

We usually wear out our audience before we wear out ourselves. And we're getting faster every day. NativeOne

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Paul,

The head of the canyon would be the upper part, but I believe the distance mentioned was in error.

Take care,

Joe

That's what I was wondering Joe thanks - so if I understand what you said, the "head" of West Boulder Canyon would be to the SE of Willow Spring just below where the Carney Springs trail drops down correct? Is there any chance whatsoever that Adolph Ruth's camp was really where Ely says it was - a little more than a quarter mile below the head of the canyon? I sorta doubt it having been through there - there ain't much flat area for camping.

Thanks - just curious.

 

[ancientones]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

We usually wear out our audience before we wear out ourselves. And we're getting faster every day.

Understood and sorry for the intrusion into this subject site.

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

He no intrusion at all as this is a totally public forum. Ancient Ones Did you get my Private messages here on treasure net? i sent them to you here on the treasure net forum to your pm ancient ones. Thankyou in advance: Johnny

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Paul,

"That's what I was wondering Joe thanks - so if I understand what you said, the "head" of West Boulder Canyon would be to the SE of Willow Spring just below where the Carney Springs trail drops down correct? Is there any chance whatsoever that Adolph Ruth's camp was really where Ely says it was - a little more than a quarter mile below the head of the canyon? I sorta doubt it having been through there - there ain't much flat area for camping."

Tricky question to answer. I believe this picture was labeled as "Ruth's last camp".

When it comes to Ely/Ruth, there are a number of "facts" that might raise an eyebrow. For instance, where Ruth's body was found. If you follow Ely, he places it right where the Stone Map Trail leaves West Boulder and heads into the saddle leading into Little Boulder and my heart formation.

Was Ely correct? If so, why was the location of the body changed in other accounts? I tend to think Ely was wrong, but it's another striking coincidence.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Dang - I forgot about that photo - I think I only saw it once or twice on Peter's now defunct site.

If that's indeed his "camp," it's certainly not where I would have expected it to be. For one thing, that looks to me like it's pretty sloped and although the angle and frame of reference isn't all that great to estimate, it looks like it's higher up than what I would have expected too.

I REALLY need to spend a week in the West Boulder area

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Bump - looking forward to more!

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Bump - looking forward to more!

Hi Oro - I apologize for not getting more stuff into this thread as RL is kicking my sorry behind lately. I'm going to have some time this weekend to read quietly and put some more of my thoughts together - the hard part so far hasn't been picking out things that "appear" to be inaccuracies, but then doing all the research needed to PROVE that they are. I might back off on that part a little bit and bring up things that seem to be inaccuracies and use the forum and collective knowledge here to determine whether they are or not.

Stay tuned - I promise I'll get back to this.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

HMMMM Gully posted -->You state that you dismiss Ely's Book because of what Julia and Rhiney said. That again tells me that you have not read the book. In the title alone it tells you that it is a synopsis of his and Jim Bark's SEVENTY YEAR search for the lost mine. Do you understand how much information is in there besides what Julia and Rhiney said? HAHAHA

******************
Hmmm, 70 years involved with no success, either it is not correct or interpreted wrongly, or? I.E. forget his conclusions and go on your own, his have been proven ?? The same goes for the others that are used as Gospel.

As for him spending money at his age??, Shucks, I will be 87 in a week or so. I have absolutely no problems in spending $$$$$$$$$$.

An Amphibious 4 place Aircraft, small 2 place helicopter, a 65 ft. Ketch rigged Tahiti schooner, (all gal crew naturally) , small 3 man submersible capable of 300 ft working depth, a ------------------ah shucks, you get the idea.

Incidentally, that would include financing a full fledged group of the TN members to do research and on foot work on the many other projects that I have. We all would have fun and make $$$$

Don Jose de La Mancha