Queens Dowry...

[Chagy]

pineapple with 129 pearls (very small ones); the other pair was smaller and each had 38 small pearls and on one extremity there was a gold amulet. Both pair weighed 3 and 1/16 ounces.

I know I have seen these earings many times but did they have pearls?

 

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[ScubaFinder]

The ones in the museum had diamonds, not pearls.

 

[bigscoop]

I wonder; In all of the turmoil of the wreck and recovery process, I wonder what, "exactly" were the most important priorities. Seems simple to answer, but with each man I assume there was an immediate priority, or thought process, in regards to what was most important at the time of the wrecks and shortly afterwards. The Kings 5th? The gifts to the courted Queen? I'm sure each man felt he was responsible, or intrusted, with something that he felt was his personal priority. i.e., "If I personally can't save this, then perhaps I can personally save that." Many are said to have drowned because of the weight they attempted to carry....was the general one of these men? Just another unknown......but a curious possibility all the same.

 

[Chagy]

Well ones listed in the Capitana one pair had 129 pearls and the other 38....So they are not the ones listed in the Capitana

 

[elle]

Hi Everyone,

Wasn’t the jewelry found at the Cabin site spectacular?
Chris James and I have both been studying the origin of those artifacts and both of us have traveled on two different occasions to the Hispanic Society Museum in NY for more insight. Chris is remarkable with his research on Colonial artifacts and really appreciates the workmanship of art pieces. That jewelry was definitely destined for a lady of nobility.

Chagy, let’s go back to the statement in the French letter.
“The Capitana of the 1715 plate fleet sank six leagues from the point of Cape Canaveral, the Almiranta sank five leagues from that point.”

The French letter was based on what the writer heard through the grapevine about the fleet disaster.

The writer wrote one Capitana went down 6 leagues from the point of Canaveral. We know from the archives (Santo Domingo 843-Letter from St. Augustine’s Governor to the King, August 19, 1715) that the point of Canaveral was considered 40 leagues from St. Augustine.

Admiral Solmon salvaged his own ship (the Almiranta) first before any others. On September 7, 1715 (Santo Domingo 843), Solmon wrote he was at his camp and salvaging his own vessel. He clearly stated his Almiranta and camp were both 48 leagues from St. Augustine.

After finishing work on the Almiranta, Solmon moved onto the Capitana wreck at the Cabin site. On September 20, 1715, Solmon wrote the King (A.G.I. Escr. Cam. 55C) and told him he was 46 leagues from St. Augustine.

Point of Canaveral = 40 LEAGUES
Capitana = 46 LEAGUES from St. Augustine
Almiranta = 48 LEAGUES from St. Augustine

Therefore, from the French letter we understand Ubilla’s Capitana was at the Cabin site and was 6 leagues from the point of Canaveral.

If Ubilla’s Capitana was 46 leagues south from St. Augustine and Ubilla’s Almiranta was 48 leagues south from St. Augustine, it is evident that the Capitana is north of the Almiranta.

The second part of the sentence in the French letter, which stated an Almiranta sank 5 leagues away, talked of Echeverz’s Almiranta.There was, of course, one slight omission in the sentence. Stories often get shortened and confused by the time they reach another nation (with a different language) located across a vast sea.

Solmon wrote the King at the Capitana Cabin site on September 20, 1715 (A.G.I. Escr. Cam. 55C) and said “the Capitana and Almiranta of Echeverz sank 5 leagues from here.” The Capitana and Almiranta of Echeverz are indeed 5 leagues from Ubilla’s Capitana Cabin site. The writer of the French letter needed to add and say, “the Almiranta and the Capitana sank five leagues from that point.”

Sometimes a change in thinking is very difficult for one to accept, especially when the history of the 1715 fleet has been set in one exact way for decades.
As a historian writing a book, it is my job to bring in new evidence and archival sources, and to supply new facts for a better understanding of what really happened 300 years ago.
Yes I am indeed challenging previous writings about the fleet.
Am I wrong to challenge?
Am I wrong in allowing readers to think differently “outside the box” and see this history in a different light?
I think we owe it to all the people who died and who were part of this tragic event, to record the history of the 1715 fleet the best possible way in truth and honesty.

Laura J

 

[Trez]

Sorry, they were diamonds not pearls, I made mistake.
Back to my rock

 

[ScubaFinder]

I made the same mistake, but the number of pearls and diamonds seem to match. Is it possible that a translation error occurred or that the letter said jewels and the author assumed they were talking about pearls? I find it hard to believe that there were multiple sets of 3 tiered pineapple shaped earrings, two with pearls and one with diamonds. Plus if one had pearls and the other had diamonds, which do you think would be for the queen?

Why is it the more we talk about the 1715 fleet, the more confused i get. :-)

Great post Laura.

 

[ou8acracker2]

I loves Laura's insight..if no one challenged things, there is alot of discovered history throughout the years that wouldnt have been discovered. If someone writing another person knew the person they were writing, they can be vague and the person would know what they were talking about..
When I write my buddies letters, they are vague as all can get out and skip a good amount of details..but its because they know what I am talking about because they know me.

Im sure the same concept applies to this as well.
A good deal wont ever be truly discovered until it is found, then in hindsight, a good deal will be peaced together.
just the way research and treasure hunting works :-)

 

[GOHO]

In reallity it is (96 NM) 28 Spanish leagues from the Fort in St Augustine to the point at Cape Canaveral.

It is (132 NM) 38 Spanish leagues From St augustine to the Cabin Wreck and (132 NM) 40 Spanish Leagues to Corrigans from Saint Augustine.

It is (144 NM) 42 Spanish Leagues to Riomar and (146 NM) 43 Spanish Leagues to Sandy point.

 

[GOHO]

elle, I'm sorry but i think you are miss interperting what Salmon is saying in that letter. He is saying that Echeverez's Capitana is 5 leagues from his ship not the Capitana of Ubilla.. Riomar is 5 leagues to Cabin wreck....








ESCRIBANIA DE CAMARA 55c September 20, 1715, Palmar de Ayz - Francisco Salmon to the King; "We were hit by a bad storm on the day of 28 July and it increased in its fury each hour which obliged me to take down the two main sails, but I left the storm sails up which the wind blew away. The main mast was badly damaged, the rudder broken in many pieces, and the bowsprit and foremast dismasted. Using all human diligence we dropped two anchors in twelve fathoms of water, but they dragged and after two hours we were thrown on some reefs in four fathoms of water and the second time the ship hit the reef the ship broke in three pieces. The center of the ship broke and stayed below the water, but the bow and stern of the ship were thrown closer to shore, which was responsible for saving most of the people. However, 82 drowned. And at a distance of two leagues, four hours earlier before we sank, the Capitana of the Flota sank and the General and over 200 persons drowned. The Capitana of the Galleons of Echeverz and the Almiranta ran aground at five leagues distance and all the other ships were sunk not far away; however, all the ships sunk on the same island.


He is referencing these distances from his ship and the cabin is the closets to that distance away from Echeverez's Capitana (Riomar)and its 2 leagues away from Corrigans (Ubillas Capitana). Lima references the Capitana at 10 leagues distance from his ship and states his ship is 27 10. Corrigans is 10 leagues from the mouth of the old St Lucie inlet(Limas Ship).

 

[elle]

Don’t worry Greg, everything will be explained clearly in the book.
I have discovered quite a few surprises about the entire 1715 fleet story that should make it a very interesting read.
You have your own mind and soul. It is a gift from God called free will. You may believe the Capitana is anywhere you would like it to be.
I am a historian and it is my duty to reveal every piece of evidence, document, and theory I could lay may hands on about the fleet, and present it to future generations (like our young ou8cracker2). These new scholars will then be able to make their own decisions on what likely happened to the ships. Only God truly knows what happened, for none of us were there.

Laura

 

[ou8acracker2]

I just got called a scholar...score

 

[GOHO]

Thanks Laura as to you.....

My suggestions to your comment above, and by no means do i mean this with any disrespect but your NUMBER 1 duty should be to make sure that your information is accurately interpreted... Remember.. the smallest details can hold the biggest clues!


Just like in Magging... the small hits hold the big treasure!!!!

Yes, one day the bottom will be found and then we will all know what ship is what for certain. I am very interested in reading your book and reading some new ideas.

If it wasnt for these types of coversations we wouldnt learn anything new...


Thanks!

 

[ou8acracker2]

Lets change directions here since you two are both set on your ways (and more power to you both on your set ways, good people dont go with the flow)

What is everyones favorite wreck...not just for searching for treasure..but which wreck do you find the most interesting and why?

 

[mad4wrecks]

The title of the thread is the Queen's Dowry so lets stick to that topic here or start a new thread.

While the diamond brooches and earrings found at the Cabin wreck by Bob Weller, Chris James and crew in 1995 are spectacular and obviously meant for a person of nobility, there is no indication these were jewels intended for Elizabeth Farnese.

Elizabeth and Phillip's first child was born in Jan. of 1716. If you do the math, it means the child was probably conceived sometime in April of 1715-3 months or so before the 1715 fleet even departed!

This could simply mean that Isabella caved in to her husbands demands before she recieved her dowry, OR, maybe all of those jewels ordered for the new Queen actually departed on another ship....months before the 1715 treasure fleet set sail. Maybe on a fast dispatch boat. The exquisite jewels, and the reason why they were being requested, certainly demanded both secrecy and expediancy

It's late. If I didn't think this through correctly, I'm sure someone will let me know!

Tom

 

[GOHO]

Also.. The salvors used Diving bells "Diving Engines" on the Capitana.. There were 2 found on Corrigans wreck in the early 60's by Waldo Sexton founder of the Driftwood Inn in Vero Beach. Non have been found on any other 1715 fleet wreck!

 

[ou8acracker2]

Sounded like it was dwindlin..figured id keep sparking discussion. Appologies.

Did the manifest match up with all the gold people have found on the supposed #2 ship wreck?
Bit of an oddity there.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

The title of the thread is the Queen's Dowry so lets stick to that topic here or start a new thread.

While the diamond brooches and earrings found at the Cabin wreck by Bob Weller, Chris James and crew in 1995 are spectacular and obviously meant for a person of nobility, there is no indication these were jewels intended for Elizabeth Farnese.

Elizabeth and Phillip's first child was born in Jan. of 1716. If you do the math, it means the child was probably conceived sometime in April of 1715-3 months or so before the 1715 fleet even departed!

This could simply mean that Isabella caved in to her husbands demands before she recieved her dowry, OR, maybe all of those jewels ordered for the new Queen actually departed on another ship....months before the 1715 treasure fleet set sail. Maybe on a fast dispatch boat. The exquisite jewels, and the reason why they were being requested, certainly demanded both secrecy and expediancy

It's late. If I didn't think this through correctly, I'm sure someone will let me know!

Tom

Yeah Tom it's turned into the old rehash of where Ubilla's Capitana and Almiranta wrecked. This is nothing NEW. During talks with 3-4 salvors in the past I've gotten 5-6 differing opinions!! I don't care much for the condescending tone of posts either.

I initially posted the list of the "Queen's Jewels" in an on topic response to the OP. I also posted about Lima's securing of "Queen's jewelry" to show that there was more than one set of jewelry pieces destined for the Queen. Not with speculation of what or where but simply to fill the questions of the thread with the historical information I have that is pretty darn valid.

I can't remember who made the statement about both "The Queen's Jewels and "Wellers Jewelry" being pineapples, but maybe it was the latest fashion in Europe?!!? heheh

There's much speculation on this subject but the translated archival documents that I have access to are plain in that the jewels existed and were loaded onto the Capitana and then that they were not found during the salvage operations.

The salvaged operation truly became the most important process of the world at that time. Salmon by default became the lord of the beach and in charge of this. There were others too that would keep a checks and balance on things found.

Why they weren't found? Again it's a BIG OCEAN and even gets bigger when you are looking for treasure. There are a few posters in this thread that can relate to that. Now take into account that these are very specific pieces to be found.

If we were to go out and look for "treasure" today we would stand a tough chance at getting some "treasure", "today".
But over the long run of the season the odds are good. If we were to say we wanted to find a silver 4 reale that would make even greater odds against finding something that in general (silver coins) there are 1.3 million plus left to find.

So now to find unique pieces of jewelry in the scatter of 1,320,000 or 2,143,100 square yards of a shipwreck, ATRONOMICAL odds against!!

Also when I’ve posted this before I find many do not know the limited time we actually get to salvage. A salvage season “typically” is 30 – 90 days a year. I think I did the math on this once and it comes out to be something like 8 ½ years if it was a normal 40 hour work week, 52 weeks a year. So while in reality the wrecks have been worked by modern salvors for over 50 years it is not like they have been worked 50 years in normal thought.

Now back to some speculation.
There have been some spectacular pieces of jewelry found on the wrecks over the years. What was destined for the Queen outside of historical documents we do not know but we can assume that many European and New World Dignitaries wouldn’t mind finding some favor with their new Queen so there could be many pieces that were made for her to this agenda. Also she wasn’t the only woman of wealth in Spain…

I think in reality many salvors wouldn’t mind finding the “Queen’s Jewelry” but in common sense we generally are looking for treasure of all types. In the thought of what Greg once wrote in this thread, give me a pile of gold coins, they’re much easier to split and SELL!!

 

[bigscoop]

The "chest" that I keep seeing listed on manifest.....some say "small chest". A couple of accounts say something like "8000 small chest"....so just how small was small by comparison? The shear number of chest that are listed is mine boggling.....but then you see "small chest?"

 

[Chagy]

Ok lets get back on the topic the "Queen Jewels" They are in the bottom of the Capitana that has not been found yet...no wait..Solorzano stole them...no wait...The British tuck them....no wait...The pirates tuck them...no wait..a modern day salvor found them and never reported it.....no wait...since the Capitana was the obvious place to put them they put them in another vessel to confuse the enemy.....pick one!!!....Sorry, didn't mean to be sarcastic but the truth of the matter is that no one has enough evidence to proof what happen to those jewels.....Just a bunch of theories!!!!!

All the best,

Chagy....