Queens Dowry...

This is what I do when I get done taking a physics test and dont want to write a 12 page environmental law paper, do a geographical information systems lab, or sort fossil samples in the lab.

I ask questions and do research when I should be doing other research haha
all in good fun

how many subcontractors are there working on the 1715 wrecks? How hard is it to get a contract?
 

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TRANSLATION OF A LETTER FOUND IN THE ARCHIVE 'DE LA VILLE DE GRENOBLE'- French translation by John de Bry. Translated into English by Jack Haskins. (not going to post the entire thing just enough to prove )

The sinking of the Capitana (Ubilla's) took place 6 leagues from the point of Cape Canaveral, not far from shore. The Almiranta (Ubilla's) lies 5 leagues from the said point.


The last paragraph states that Ubilla’s Capitana is 6 leagues from the point of Cape Canaveral and that the Almiranta is 5. This places the Almiranta north of the Capitana.

From this document one more piece of evidence is introduced that the shipwreck off the Cabin Site is the Almiranta of Salmon.
 

Chagy, you should know better that the French archives are my passion and that John’s work is a total inspiration for me. As a matter of fact, that letter was one of my main sources in the Marigalera book. You’ll see it in my bibliography. I know the letter very well.

The letter reads: “The Capitana of the 1715 plate fleet sank six leagues from the point of Cape Canaveral, the Almiranta sank five leagues from that point.”

The letter never mentioned if it was Ubilla’s Capitana or Echeverz’s Capitana. The writer also never said if he was referring to Ubilla’s Almiranta or Echeverz’s Almiranta.

Six leagues from the point of Cape Canaveral is Ubilla’s Capitana. From that point at Ubilla’s Capitana, go five leagues south and you will hit Echeverz’s Almiranta.

I have John’s phone number if you would like to verify this. He has been so helpful in regards to my research and is an exceptional historian, diver and archaeologist.

Laura J I have to retire from this thread now, as I have much work to accomplish.
 

Just to play devils advocate for the sake of argument..

"The Capitana of the 1715 plate fleet sank six leagues from the point of Cape Canaveral, the Almiranta sank five leagues from that point.”

Sank six leagues from that point (being cape canaveral) and Capitana of the plate fleet would entail that it would in fact be the main capitana..Ubillas..
now for sake of argument, Almiranta sank five leagues from THAT point...That could either be the point where the capitana sank, or that point in regards to the point of cape canaveral. It could be interpretted in two ways, thus allowing the Almiranta to be either north or south of the Capitana...

One would mean its a far distance south being Echeverz...or the other being one league north of that point.

Do both descriptions fit the wreck sites? because that would be very interesting haha

(p.s- this is solely for the sake of argument, not saying anyone is right or wrong)
 

6 leagues from the point of Cape Canaveral to the Capitana and 5 leagues to Almiranta from that point... they mention point twice in that account and i believe they are referencing one point and that is the point at Cape Canaveral not to the Capitana and from the Capitana to the Almiranta... That wouldn't fit any of the wrecks!


Problem is that non of the 1715 vessels are that close to Cape Canaveral.

the Cape is 37+ miles from Cabin wreck which is around 11 -12 leagues and Corrigans is around 42 -43 miles making it 13 - 14 leagues....

Now... Corrigans is 5 leagues to Riomar and Sandy point is another league or two from Riomar.


What does it all mean?

They had a hard time judging distance!

but i think it makes the point that the Almiranta is north of the Capitana!


How about this one.......


After the Storm, Salmon made it to the site of the Capitana to help organize the survivors and to gather what was saved. The launch was recovered from the Capitana and Salmon sent it to St Augustine with a couple letters. I believe at this moment Salmon was at the Capitana site because his letter states that he was at 27 50 on Aug 4 just 4 days after the storm.

Lima states that the Capitana wrecked 10 leagues from his ship.... and that his ship is at 27 10 and his camp was at 27 15.

Now there are 4 Spanish miles in 1 Spanish league.... 4miles X 10 leagues = 40 miles... 40 + 10 = 27 50!!!!

Now on a modern day chart it puts 27 50 at the Cabin wreck.. but remember we are in Spanish measurments not English. There are 70 Spanish miles in 1 degree of Latitude and only 60 english miles. 27 50 in Spanish is not the same as 27 50 today.

If you plot the Spanish 27 50 it measures to around 27 43.8... Thats Corrigans!!!
 

Came across this last night, Sept., 20, 1715, Palmer de Ayz - Francisco Salmon to the King of Spain; "Using all human diligence we dropped two anchors in twelve fathoms of water, but dragged and after two hours we were thrown on some reefs in four fathoms of water. The second time the ship hit the reef the ship broke in three pieces. The center of the ship stayed below water, but the bow and stern of the ship were thrown closer to shore, which was responsible for saving most of the people. However, 82 drowned, and at a distance of two leagues, four hours earlier, the General over two hundred persons drowned."

Salmon would have been drifting north, so "four hours earlier" would indicate that the Capitana sank further south, before Salmon's ship.

"Weller" claims that in all of the documents in regards to the Almiranta, that all the quadrant readings are the same, 27 degrees, 50 minutes, "which is right at the Cabin site."

Now toss in the Grenoble letter.

Per Joseph Prem y Castro, 30, October, 1715; "They have found the bottom of the Capitana in two fathoms of water and have already recovered 949 chest of silver."

In establishing that this is "Corrigan's" site, Weller references the string of 22 cannon that are along the reef in two fathoms of water.

Just putting this out here for the sake of debate......:dontknow:
 

Just for kicks, how can we say for sure that there are no 1715 wrecks 6 leagues south of the Cape? With ships still unaccounted for, isn't it possible that there could be a 1715 wreck 6 leagues south of Cape Canaveral? 5 Leagues south of that would be 11 leagues south of the cape. Which would be.....Hmmmm. 8-)
 

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Well I find this to be very confusing. Why would someone who knew this was a combined fleet with 2 Capitanas and 2 Almirantas write a letter referring to one Capitana and to the other Almiranta with out specifying the were taliking about one and the other too confusing the logical thing would have been to specify Ubillas Capitana and Echevez Almiranta….Dont you think?

There are way more account that indicate that Ubillas Capitana is south of the Almiranta than ones that indicate the opposite.

As always just my humble opinion…….
 

I give a round of applause to everyone posting on this topic.
This is one heck of a discussion
 

Chagy said:
Well I find this to be very confusing. Why would someone who knew this was a combined fleet with 2 Capitanas and 2 Almirantas write a letter referring to one Capitana and to the other Almiranta with out specifying the were taliking about one and the other too confusing the logical thing would have been to specify Ubillas Capitana and Echevez Almiranta….Dont you think?

There are way more account that indicate that Ubillas Capitana is south of the Almiranta than ones that indicate the opposite.

As always just my humble opinion…….
Click to expand...

ou8acracker2 & I were joking that this probably why the King started killing noblemen....not only had his fleet sank, and his recovery been robbed twice by Jennings, but even after it was all said and done he couldn't get any of those where there to even tell him with any certain which ship was at what site, or exactly who was on it when it wrecked! :laughing7: Doesn't evoke much confidence or trust in those who were suppose to be in charge of things.
 

Picture a bunch of scared Spaniards running around trying to protect their own butts, that is the clearest description of the survivor accounts I can give you. Often times they said what the king wanted to hear rather than what actually happened.

I think as researchers, we continually challenge the accepted beliefs...at least we do if we are doing our jobs correctly. There is a lot more that we don't know about the 1715 fleet, and what we do know is nothing more than an educated guess based on many factors. I do believe that the Capitana is at Corrigan's, but I also know that I do not know for sure.

Question: Earlier in this thread someone gave an accounting of the Queen's Dowry which included the pineapple earrings. Weren't these found by Weller? Based on the description I am sure that i have seen the earrings in question. Where were these found?

From Mr Weller's Obituary:
"and a gold and diamond set Weller called "the queen jewels," which was displayed at Mel Fisher's Treasure Museum in Sebastian until last month when it was sold into a private collection. That collection came from a 1715 wreck site and included a brooch with 177 jewels and solid gold pineapple-shaped earrings with 57 diamonds in each one."

Jason
 

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ScubaFinder said:
Picture a bunch of scared Spaniards running around trying to protect their own butts, that is the clearest description of the survivor accounts I can give you. Often times they said what the king wanted to hear rather than what actually happened.

I think as researchers, we continually challenge the accepted beliefs...at least we do if we are doing our jobs correctly. There is a lot more that we don't know about the 1715 fleet, and what we do know is nothing more than an educated guess based on many factors. I do believe that the Capitana is at Corrigan's, but I also know that I do not know for sure.

Question: Earlier in this thread someone gave an accounting of the Queen's Dowry which included the pineapple earrings. Weren't these found by Weller? Based on the description I am sure that i have seen the earrings in question. Where were these found?

From Mr Weller's Obituary:
"and a gold and diamond set Weller called "the queen jewels," which was displayed at Mel Fisher's Treasure Museum in Sebastian until last month when it was sold into a private collection. That collection came from a 1715 wreck site and included a brooch with 177 jewels and solid gold pineapple-shaped earrings with 57 diamonds in each one."

Jason
Click to expand...

There were things for the King and Queen on many of the vessels including the Urca.... I have a letter where Lima tells the King that he is going to bury the thing fot he King or Queen (cant remember right now and I dont have the documents here I am at work) in the sand until the next rescue vessel comes. And a few other letter also talk about them having stuff for the King and Queen......
 

List of jewels sent to the Queen aboard the Capitana of Ubilla's Flota, sent by the President of Guadalajara, Mexico.

A. Two pair of gold earrings (drop earrings); one pair was in 3 parts, the lower part being in the shape of a pineapple with 129 pearls (very small ones); the other pair was smaller and each had 38 small pearls and on one extremity there was a gold amulet. Both pair weighed 3 and 1/16 ounces.

Someone must know where these were found...I'm sure i have them in my documentation, but I too am at work...uh...."working". LOL
 

^ If he did that. Im willing to bet they are still there, where he burried them.
 

ou8acracker2 said:
^ If he did that. Im willing to bet they are still there, where he burried them.
Click to expand...

I wish, but .....No because he told the King on a letter that he was going to send them back to Havana in the next rescue vessel......
 

but did that next rescue vessel come before he forgot where he burried them...sand tends to shift and look way different than when you dug it up haha
Man wouldnt that be a metal detectors delight.."oh hey look, the kings jewels"
 

Jason,

The pineapple earrings, broach all found by Chris James back in early 90's, who was diving with Weller. They were found at the Cabin site, Those artifacts were one of the reasons the Cabin site was off limits for a few years...I believe James and Weller and Marx became in battled...and the Cabin site was the battle ground.
This is just a brief surmise of my memory banks...which are in need of Blueberries...I may not have all the details accurate but should get you close.
I have several very nice photos of the items...they are indeed masterful works of art. Diamonds and gold hmmm who can't love that. Now i see you were talking about pearls...not diamonds. So...forget it then not the same goodies.
Hope all is well...

Trez
 

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ou8acracker2 said:
but did that next rescue vessel come before he forgot where he burried them...sand tends to shift and look way different than when you dug it up haha
Man wouldnt that be a metal detectors delight.."oh hey look, the kings jewels"
Click to expand...

The Urca was the southermost wreck so most if not all rescue vessels coming from Havana would stop there first.....
 

Thanks Trez, for jogging my memory banks. All is well, waiting to hear about Bahama's permits, if that fails then I'm back on the 1715 Fleet this summer or back to the DR, who knows. So the Pineapple earrings were found on the cabin site, and were listed on the Capitana's cargo manifest. Seems to me there are clues to support both theories.

I've found it best to keep an open mind on things that happened 3 centuries ago...
 

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