Queens Dowry...

[elle]

Chagy, did you read the mission story I sent you awhile back?

Cheers,
Laura

 

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[ou8acracker2]

I will be buying this book whenever you start selling it.


also, another note...the ballest stones were kept at the VERY buttom of the boat. If the ballest stones were found, wouldnt that suggest, the bottom of the boat was found? Or are you referring to the holding deck above this bottom.

 

[Chagy]

Yes the ballast pile was at the bottom of the vessel but at the present site of the Capitana there is not enough ballast to really say this is the bottom of the vessel.....

Chagy....

 

[Adventuredreamer]

Can anyone please give me some great book advice on the Queens Dowry and anything that would be helpful so I can start research about it. Wanna know anything there is about this treasure so any help at all would be nice

 

[Chagy]

You got it Chagy! I'll be explaining the circumstances of this history with archival documents
about Solorzano in my upcoming 1715 Fleet book.

Are the Queen's jewels which were stored on the Capitana still out there in the sea?

Well, I think one can guess this answer since Solorzano
was not just arrested but executed for his past actions as head salvager.
Bribing court officials was quite common and successful for head figures. Unfortunately Solorzano was punished by death
for a crime that was so great in magnitude, that all the money and power in the world couldn't save him.
(One of the sources-A.G.I. Indiferente General: Legajo 538)

Chagy, did you read the mission story I sent you awhile back?

Cheers,
Laura

Hello,

I had already moved from that address and never got it....I read some of it the last time I visited Jason but there were to many Coronas that weekend so I didn't read the entire thing however I have to see Jas soon so I will get his copy and read it...Really looking forward to read it!!! Thanks

 

[Chagy]

Can anyone please give me some great book advice on the Queens Dowry and anything that would be helpful so I can start research about it. Wanna know anything there is about this treasure so any help at all would be nice

Try "Pieces of Eight" or "Florida's Golden Galleons"

 

[elle]

Thanks ou8acracker2!

There are so many more misconceptions concerning the jewels of the 1715 Fleet.
The queen was not given a “dowry” but received wedding gifts. It was her father who had to pay out a dowry.
If you read the autobiographies of
the Royal Family and years’worth of inventory lists of the Royal Estate Office through Queen Maria Amalia, you
will see there was never a shortage of jewels. Gifts for Queen Elizabeth Farnese did make it back to Spain on other ships in 1715,
and her jewelry chest was never empty.

As for the ballast, you are correct. The already discovered contents of this Capitana included ballast (you speak of),
cannons, timbers, artifacts, and left-over coinage.
In the 1960s the Real Eight Co. found around 20 more chests (each with 3,000 coins) at the bottom of this ship.
If you consider the Spanish retrieved all the Royal treasure and a good portion of the private shipment, pirates stole a huge
amount in 1716 and onwards, the1800s was notorious for salvaging, and viewing what divers are finding today on the site,
you can get an idea of what is left. Of course, there will always be pieces of contraband stuck here and there in the reef and that which floated away.

Hopes this helps,
Laura Strolia J

*Cool Chagy!

 

[GOHO]

Thanks ou8acracker2!

For years I also used to think the Royal jewels of the Capitana were still there in the ocean,
until new evidence kept appearing in my research.
For insight, there was a law that excluded nobility from torture and execution for a crime.
Given Solorzano was of a most distinguished family from
Tenerife who also belonged to the Great Orders of Chivalry, and given he himself was a Governor and Captain of War,
his punishment is not only shocking, but disturbing! His crime distressed the King enough to overrule any “nobleman’s law,”
since the final verdict came straight from the court in Madrid.

For the record, all the Royal treasure from the Capitana was recovered and returned to Spain.
What Solorzano was accused of stealing, personally upset the King. (Al Tribunal de la Contratación de Cadiz, 21 de juniode 1733).

There are so many more misconceptions concerning the jewels of the 1715 Fleet.
The queen was not given a “dowry” but received wedding gifts. It was her father who had to pay out a dowry.
If you read the autobiographies of
the Royal Family and years’worth of inventory lists of the Royal Estate Office through Queen Maria Amalia, you
will see there was never a shortage of jewels. Gifts for Queen Elizabeth Farnese did make it back to Spain on other ships in 1715,
and her jewelry chest was never empty.

As for the ballast, you are correct. The already discovered contents of this Capitana included ballast (you speak of),
cannons, timbers, artifacts, and left-over coinage.
In the 1960s the Real Eight Co. found around 20 more chests (each with 3,000 coins) at the bottom of this ship.
If you consider the Spanish retrieved all the Royal treasure and a good portion of the private shipment, pirates stole a huge
amount in 1716 and onwards, the1800s was notorious for salvaging, and viewing what divers are finding today on the site,
you can get an idea of what is left. Of course, there will always be pieces of contraband stuck here and there in the reef and that which floated away.

Hopes this helps,
Laura Strolia J

*Cool Chagy!

The Real 8 guys salvaged on the Cabin wreck which is the Almiranta not the Capitana... on the Capitana (Corrigans wreck) in modern times there has been less than 5 chest salvaged.

Spanish recovered all of the Kings treasure because the King got paid first! When you consider there was 1300 chest of 3,000 coins in each chest (Thats 122 TONS of Silver) that sank on the Capitana, the king had only maybe 200 chest onboard this ship and the rest was private passengers. When the Spainish salvors found the bottom everything that was recovered went to the king first until he was paid off then what was left went to the other passengers!!!!!

There is still over 300 chest unaccounted for on the Capitana... If you consider that the Almiranta was Salvage more heavily than the Capitana and it had less treasure onboard, only 970 chest, but the Real 8 guys still found 20 plus chests that tells me that the bottom of the Capitana will have at least that many left on it...............

Most of the British and Pirates salvaged on the Almiranta because it was easier to find treasure there!!!!! They had a very hard time locating the "SPOT" on the capitana that held all the chest....

Personally, I really dont care if the "Queens Jewels" were onboard or not... Jewelry is way to hard to sell anyway and to get what its worth.... Forget it!!!! I'll take a few chests of coins over some jewelry any day!!!!!

 

[bigscoop]

Just a thought, but didn't Jennings raid the place twice? Seems to me, if they were gathering the Kings treasure first...well....maybe Jennings walked of with it? Would you want to tell the King, "I let Jennings take those."

 

[Chagy]

In all honesty I gave up on the Queens Jewelry a long time ago. The only reason I mentioned the Solorzano theory is because the thread is "Queens Dowry" but as this theory I can give you another 20. I don't believe 100% that Solorzano tuck them but then again he may have. Solorzano recovered "4 million pesos" (well that is what he reported). If he kept more than what he turned in that means he kept for him self over 4 million pesos. Good enough reason for the King to want him dead. One of the reasons he was given the position of Governor was due to his extraordinary success in the recovery of the 1715 treasure. So The king was really pissed off at him. Going back to the Queen Jewels. No one can tell for sure if they are still at the bottom of the ocean.

As far as the salvage of the Capitana I have to agree that for many years and still today many people believe that the Cabin Wreck is the Capitana how ever reading so many letters and documents one can tell that Corrigans is in fact the Capitana.

A side from the Jewels I believe the 1715 wrecks still hold a few good prices, The bottom of the Capitana like Greg well said, Echevez's Son's vessel, The Nieves and if the wreck of Colored Beach is not Ubillas patache, then Ubillas patache.

Just my humble opinion......

All the best,

Chagy....

 

[Chagy]

Just a thought, but didn't Jennings raid the place twice? Seems to me, if they were gathering the Kings treasure first...well....maybe Jennings walked of with it? Would you want to tell the King, "I let Jennings take those."

When Greg said the Kings treasure first it is not necessarily exactly the Kings cargo but the amount that was registered for him. Obviously they would try to recover specific things that were being sent to the King but if those were not found he would get what ever added up to the amount register in his name. I have read accounts of someone getting paid the amount of register cargo that belonged to someone who died in the wreck and was carrying valuables of others.

 

[elle]

Originally posted by GOHO:
“The Real 8 guys salvaged on the Cabin wreck which is the Almiranta not the Capitana.”

The Cabin wreck is the Capitana and the Almiranta is at Corrigans.
Over the years there has only been speculation and guessing of these ship locations, and this was one fact I wanted to set straight in the book. I have actual archival documents claiming the locations for these ships along with an eighteenth-century map that clearly states the Capitana is at the Cabin site. There was only one Capitana and this was the ship which the General traveled on.
Most people thought the Capitana was at Corrigans because there was a story which stated the Spanish fled in a southerly direction when pirates invaded. Translation of Spanish documents is not always correct. The Spanish did flee south from the Capitana at the Cabin site. They fled south down the Indian River (which was inland and parallel to the beach) to another main Spanish salvage camp south of the Indian River inlet.
So the Capitana was to a great extent, fully salvaged.
Sorry, I am just trying to help by contributing some of my research and not cause friction, only historical interest.


Laura J

 

[ou8acracker2]

So then theoretically..there still is the bottom of the ship to be found containing a large amount of chests.

Now another question not in regards to the Dowry...
If there was a camp SOUTH of ft pierce inlet, and a camp at Sebastian...did they do alot of salvaging on the Sandy Point and Rio Mar wrecks since there wasnt a camp there? Seems those two wrecked REALLY shallow, no where near as much treasure on it, but wouldnt it still be worth the time since pickins were close and easy?

 

[elle]

Hi ou8acracker2!

The Capitana's bottom was to a great extent all salvaged. The exact words from the archives say all the Royal treasure was returned to Spain and most of the private treasure.
There were salvage camps at each wreck site. You are correct that the Rio Mar site had less treasure listed in the documents.
As for finding anymore? Well, people still locate some items metal detecting on the beaches.

 

[GOHO]

Riomar i believe is Echerveres's Capitana.. It sank almost intact and they had to burn it to get inside. Still even though the Spainsh did a good job salvaging Riomar when Mel first began salvage there he brought out lots of GOLD!!! Still it is a GREAT site to work and has a HIGH potential for GOLD!!!!

The Capitana was salvaged well..the Spanish recovered 1000 chest out of 1300... thats a 75 -80 % salvage recovery. Excellent for the Time!!!! but that still leaves 300 chests which is around 900,000 coins! Even if just 10% is still there thats a LOT!!!!!

 

[GOHO]

Originally posted by GOHO:
“The Real 8 guys salvaged on the Cabin wreck which is the Almiranta not the Capitana.”

The Cabin wreck is the Capitana and the Almiranta is at Corrigans.
Over the years there has only been speculation and guessing of these ship locations, and this was one fact I wanted to set straight in the book. I have actual archival documents claiming the locations for these ships along with an eighteenth-century map that clearly states the Capitana is at the Cabin site. There was only one Capitana and this was the ship which the General traveled on.
Most people thought the Capitana was at Corrigans because there was a story which stated the Spanish fled in a southerly direction when pirates invaded. Translation of Spanish documents is not always correct. The Spanish did flee south from the Capitana at the Cabin site. They fled south down the Indian River (which was inland and parallel to the beach) to another main Spanish salvage camp south of the Indian River inlet.
So the Capitana was to a great extent, fully salvaged.
Sorry, I am just trying to help by contributing some of my research and not cause friction, only historical interest.


Laura J

Sorry elle but i believe your wrong and it has nothing to do with that letter. If you really study the way these ships broke up.. There is only one ship that fits the Capitana distruction and thats Corrigans!

 

[elle]

Sorry GOHO, I have the archival information. Why would I have spent all my years
looking through Spanish documents and analyzing? As a historian, I back up with proof, sources, and original documents, besides truth.
I am just trying to help others out.

 

[GOHO]

Show me your proof? If you have something written that plainly states the location of these vessels then share it with me, Please! I am very open to this discussion.

I can tell you with my many years of surveying and diving both the Cabin and Corrigans wreck that the Cabin scatter matches the survivors discription of the Almiranta's distruction to a "T" and the same with Corrigans. Also if you convert the latitudes from the spanish letters along with their leagues given from each other... Corriagans is the Capitana all the way!!!!

 

[Darren in NC]

Hello, elle. It's always great to "see" you here. I am a bit confused as well. While I haven't translated any source documents, I have read translations - primarily those of Jack Haskins. Admiral Salmon clearly states his wreck was the furthest north and just above the capitana. I have always wondered why there has been confusion surrounding the two wreck's identities when it is clear in his letters. I have to agree with Chagy and GOHO until I see other proof. What other preponderance of documentation can shed light on this?

 

[ou8acracker2]

What im wondering...is if someone has documented proof that took them years to research, why would they just give it away haha

From a science background..I would have to agree that usually documentation is more often than not, correct..however, in some instances I have seen that common logic while looking at something says something totally different (welcome to stratigraphy and geomorphology)..

it could go either way. Im not one to argue with research though.

For fun record: documentation is tricky..you never know why something was written and under what circumstances. Maybe someone was trying to hide something, keep something quiet, confuse someone, make someone give up, etc. Could be many reasons why he said he was furtherst north when he wasnt or vice versa..ya just never know.