prospective

Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp said:
You posted-> And after the island sunk, there were huge mud flats everywhere?

********
Frankly I have no idea, but the only ones mentioned are off of the coasts of Portugal and Spain..

Oro knows far more than I on this.

Don Jose de La Mancha


I believe that Plato's story said that after it sunk, ships couldn't get through to where it used to be, because of huge mud flats blocking the areas of passage (shortly after it happened).
 

This is a very long and somewhat off-topic reply, which is apt to disappear in future so I must beg your indulgence. Thank you in advance.

Springfield wrote
Of course you are. Please explain your opinion.

As I am sure that my own views hold no weight for you (and the public at large) here are a few of the points;

The Los Lunas Decalogue is an abridged version of the 10 Commandments.

It would be a fair assumption these visitors possessed a precision knowledge of astronomy and with this knowledge keen awareness of navigational direction. The Phoenicians possessed this level of navigational astronomy.

15_006.jpg

If one goes to any search engine and types in TANIT SYMBOL Tanit was the goddess of Baal, a very familiar nature religion indigenous to the Canaan area. Tanit has also been called Astarte. The symbol for this goddess is found throughout the Old World; particularly, in Carthage; a Phoenician colony in North Africa.

Minus the three or four letters that have broken off, and minus the period separation points and the caret, there are 216 characters inscribed on the stone. All 22 letters of a Semitic/Phoenician/Paleo-Hebrew alephbet are employed.

The overwhelming number of Phoenician and Greek letters and words found in Los Lunas are more of a direct link to Old World (Bronze Age) employ

The last group of script-letters are; what I call, the curvey ones (for lack of any academic ones). These are the letters “Beyt (B or V), “Ayin” (without a vowel it is soundless), and the letter “Resh” (R). All are consistently Phoenician in origin.

Almost all linguistic translators of the Decalogue stone agree that Phoenician Script has a strong foundation. The important point to learn here is that the letters used in Los Lunas are not homogeneous! The scripts on this stone tell of many scripts from many ports of call.

All of this is borrowed from an online article which supports the stones being 10 Commandments, but the salient points are among my own reservations.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/15_williamson.html

Ancient Hebrew like Phoenician being basically a consonant alphabet can often be read in more than one way; this is true on the Los Lunas dekalogue as well. The evidence of "other ports of call" also supports a Phoenician source, for they called at all the ports of the then-known world in their trading and exploration voyages. Hebrew inscriptions do show a tendency to adopt Greek letters after a period of time, and later still Roman, so this by itself does not rule out Hebrew origin.

Notably two translators rejected the idea that the rock inscription had something to do with the Ten Commandments. In 1964, Robert L. LaFollete wrote a translation which resulted in a travelers story carved on the rock using Phoenician as well as some Hebrew, Cyrillic and Etruscan letters. LaFollete translated this story in English as well as in the Navajo language. Dixie L. Perkins published another translation in 1979. This time under the assumption that the writer was of Greek origin and that he was using old-Greek and Phoenician letters. Perkins translation, too, challenges the Ten Commandment version, again resulting in another travelers story. (1) However, Mrs Perkins stated in her foreword to her translation that she only studied Latin and Greek, not however Hebrew.

Check out the diagram on this page and you can see another issue I have with the Ten Commandments theory;
http://www.mhccorp.com/archaeology/decalogue-translation.html

To translate it as a version of the Ten Commandments, you have to use a garbled form of reading it; I have never found any 10 Commandment inscription which follows this construction and it is illogical as well as unusual. While it is not impossible for this to be the correct translation (obviously) I remain un-convinced that it is correct, and support the alternate theory which is that it is a Phoenician inscription, with a very different text. The first red flag (for me) was that it is written in eight lines of script, which is inconsistent with at least modern concepts of how the 10 Commandments should appear. I do plan to visit the site in person before making any absolute conclusions, which unfortunately cannot be on our next trip.

Somehiker wrote
Beth:
Think you've missed the difference between his early 7 AM post and much later 8 PM post.

Not to answer for Beth, but BB had posts here on T-net at least up to 2:25 pm, which have since been removed; there was a time gap of at most five hours, which is plenty of time to drive 78 miles and break down more than once, struggle to repair and get running, and drive home. I am sure that she did not mean that he did not have a horrible day, we have had plenty of similar days but rarely have been lucky enough to be able to get home in five or six hours time. For us it usually is a whole day, and sometimes more than one day "adventure" when breakdowns occur, and never have had a backup vehicle attached to a tow bar. I do not know why those posts up to 2:30 pm were removed, I don't think anyone doubted the RV broke down on him. Oops now I see that she already answered, but I know I read a post from BB at just before 2:30 pm.

Don Jose, Dueno de Real de Tayopa wrote
Oro knows far more than I on this.

I doubt that statement, and unfortunately Plato was not very specific about exactly how much land area disappeared beneath the seas. Plato's two works describing Atlantis are both online (free) for anyone wishing to get specific;

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/timaeus.html
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html

Much information in circulation today is of modern origins, but there are other ancient sources; however it is notable that Plutarch accused Plato of embellishing the story of Atlantis in his "Life of Solon"; other ancient sources are much more bare-bones, yet I suspect are closer to the truth.

Sorry for the long-winded reply, I hope you are all having a very pleasant day; will pop in later this evening.
Oroblanco

:coffee2: :coffee2:
 

Actually, I looked at the time here when he made the last post - and I did mis-figured - its 2 hours time off from here, so it would have been 2:20, not 3:20 pm.
I don't even know what time Tnet is on - I was just surprised that BB was still posting at 12:20 pm, my time, and commented on it. A post which is not here.

Either way, if it had been me - I would have never made it back that quickly. :laughing9: First, I don't leave my vehicles anywhere that far away from "home". Second, I don't know who I'd trust to "keep" my vehicle. The last time we broke down, we got a motel room across the street from it. (of course, that was after trying to cb truck drivers, police, and ending up hiking back to Billings, then hiking another 4 miles to rent a car) :laughing7:

Beth
 

This post,and I am in the same time zone as BB. is, at 11:08 PM EDT
Whatever your screen shows the post time at,gives the difference.
If he posted,then removed the posts which I did not see,then I have nothing more to go by.
Just thought you were being kinda harsh on the poor guy,seeing as how he only made it,at most,an hour and a half from home.
I've had to leave disabled vehicles a couple of times.Once for two days on the shoulder of the highway,until I could rent a dolly,without any problem.
Did a 350 mile round trip today,to visit family.Nice day for a drive.Two hours and forty five minutes each way,with two coffee stops there and back.

Regards:SH.
 

Somehiker,

I didn't realize Tnet - and you - were in the east. I'm not. I'm on Mountain Time.

But, you're right, you didn't see them at the time they were posted, so, you have nothing to go by.

Beth
 

i sorry i have not had a chance to read the replies yet . i loaded the truck full by my self before i left the mallard 48 miles from home .. i unloaded the truck when the next morning we had forgotten Helen's heart meds in the mallard ,so i went back the next morning and loaded the truck again so it would be easyer to move , after moveing all that i tried to pick the portable gen up and put it in the truck i strain the muscle in my right sholder i then cam home and un loaded the truck again with by my self .. it cost me 300 to get her towed home ... the upper hose , ratiator, the alternater belt, thermastat ,and we still are not sure why it broke the belts ..

i am sore but it should heal fine in a week or so .. i have had few pulled muscles in my days so that not much of problem right now just sore .. the mallard will take me a week or two to get her running again but i can not fix it with a sore sholder ..

so the mallard is done where she is right now i did get her ready for winter .. about 40 gallons of water gone and she is full of gas right to the top almost

all her tanks are emity right now ...

i am just glad no one got hurt and the mallards home safe .. i did drive her up to 75 MPH and she run good on the open road .. till she went south ..

i am looking at flying down if if i can , i have no idea yet if that will be a choice yet ..

right now picking up my coffe cup is sore ..

i will be there if i can .. i want this over and done with ...i would have to leave half my gear if i fly...

i do not even know if the climb would be safe that way ...

what dont kill me will make be stronger , or at lest make me think twice before i do it again ...lol
 

i dont what happend to the post your talking about SH .
i left here about 20 to 4:00 and i got back just before 10:00.. what a night mare ...

and i was very happy i had the s10 in tow ....

i was on the road about a hour before she blew her cookies .. it dose nt look like she hurt the engine .. its running we took the thermasat out and she is running , and leeking a few places . but the engine sounds alright ..

ya . it was a back down every time she started to blow steam .. i have been there a few time .. the steam wisle tells you to stop or you will be walking ...

first my sholder need to heal up before i try to get there again ..

it cost a little to get things straight and now i am thinking of flying down the 21st and leaveing the 23rd,

i can drive my s10 to the airport at Syr.and leave it in the parking lot .. and drive home when i get back ...

i would like to get this over with and pay back some of bills some day ..lol

were safe thats the main thing for now ...
 

Oroblanco said:
This is a very long and somewhat off-topic reply, which is apt to disappear in future so I must beg your indulgence. Thank you in advance.

Springfield wrote
Of course you are. Please explain your opinion.

As I am sure that my own views hold no weight for you (and the public at large) here are a few of the points......

Thanks for the interesting reply, Oro. Maybe it's just me, but other than your personal doubts, it seems like the sources you've provided (except the admitted unqualified linguists) tend to generally support the original premise - the decalog stone is a version of the TC inscribed in an ancient Middle Eastern (Shemetic, per Deal) alphabet. You might invest in the Deal book for the tedius analysis. I'm not a linguist - draw your own conclusions.

In a similar manner with the analysis of the Kensington Rune Stone discovered near Alexandria, MN, Deal presents details of the ideosychrasies of this language, how they can be dated and what might be expected from the ranks of a military/exploration group intent on leaving a permanent message in the wilderness. The native Americans (permanent residents in NM for milenia) reject the stone as their work, the Mormons claim it wasn't their message. Logic tells us it was either a hoax or 'the real thing'.

Be that as it may, as I mentioned earlier, the military-style ruins and datable star map at the top of the mesa (decalog stone is located lower on the hill, at the camp 'entrance'), discovered and studied fairly recently compared to the TC stone's discovery, are by far of more interest to me. Consideration of this evidence pushes the hoax theory beyond the boundaries of credibilty, or at least that's how it seems to me.

I hate to admit it, but I haven't visited Hidden Mountain either. It's on my list; maybe I'll bump into you at the top of the hill someday. I've seen a boatload of native ruins in NM, and I'm really curious to look over the Hidden Mountain ones.
 

Springfield,
I would certainly encourage you to pay a visit to Hidden mountain, it is well worth it. You really need to get on top and walk around it to really appreciate just how big of a settlement there was, pictures just do not do it justice. While lots of people have hiked to that famouns stone not so many have continued up the mountain to see the ruins of the settlement and there are additional inscriptions op on top that are just as interesting.

Bill
 

Bill96 said:
Springfield,
I would certainly encourage you to pay a visit to Hidden mountain, it is well worth it. You really need to get on top and walk around it to really appreciate just how big of a settlement there was, pictures just do not do it justice. While lots of people have hiked to that famouns stone not so many have continued up the mountain to see the ruins of the settlement and there are additional inscriptions op on top that are just as interesting.

Bill

Thanks, Bill. Yes, it's on my short list. As I said, I'm more interested in the ruins on top than the TC stone.
 

Springfield wrote
Maybe it's just me, but other than your personal doubts, it seems like the sources you've provided (except the admitted unqualified linguists) tend to generally support the original premise - the decalog stone is a version of the TC inscribed in an ancient Middle Eastern (Shemetic, per Deal) alphabet. You might invest in the Deal book for the tedius analysis. I'm not a linguist - draw your own conclusions.

I thought I had made that clear, hence the statement,
"All of this is borrowed from an online article which supports the stones being 10 Commandments, but the salient points are among my own reservations."

I have had the Deal book on my list to get, but the library budget has been largely committed to another project so it has to wait a while.
A problem (for me) is that many of the experts whom have done translations of the stone have been biblical scholars and/or have their expertise in ancient Hebrew; the story of the lost Ten Tribes and Solomon's "navy" may be just too attractive and could be resulting in a biased translation. What I was trying to point out was that it has many indications of a Phoenician origin rather than Hebrew. The structure issue is not simply the fact you must read line 1 then line 3 and back to 2 to make it work with the 10 commandments, but that we must skip or ignore two words on the fourth line and some other odd points. There are very few experts in Phoenician and I do not pretend to be but the text can be read and makes sense in Phoenician, without having to follow that odd order used to interpret it as the 10 commandments. Another issue with that odd order of reading the lines is that is what you might expect to happen with a hoax, carving a fake inscription then realized his mistake and inserted line 2.

The text can be read in Greek too but it leaves us with some nonsense like the sentence "I remain hair of rabbit" so seems an unlikely solution. :dontknow:

Bottom line, I don't rule out the Hebrew, 10 commandments theory but wish that a Phoenician language expert would attempt a translation. There was one done in that language, which I have around here somewhere but perhaps if you are interested you can locate it in your sources or online. The Hebrews were mainly a pastoral culture, except for the experiments of David, Solomon and Jehoshephat, while their Phoenician neighbors were very much a seafaring culture; it would not be a great surprise to find Phoenician evidence almost anywhere, but to find Hebrew evidence inland in New Mexico is.

Perhaps we will bump into each other there some day (Hidden Mountain); I had hoped to make a stop there on our last trip and could not, and it is not in the cards for this trip either but I am in no hurry, will get there sooner or later.

I have no idea how to tie this in to the subject matter, so apologies are in order. :-\
Oroblanco

:coffee2: :coffee2:
 

Oroblanco said:
..... it would not be a great surprise to find Phoenician evidence almost anywhere, but to find Hebrew evidence inland in New Mexico is.

Perhaps we will bump into each other there some day (Hidden Mountain); I had hoped to make a stop there on our last trip and could not, and it is not in the cards for this trip either but I am in no hurry, will get there sooner or later.

I have no idea how to tie this in to the subject matter, so apologies are in order. :-\
Oroblanco

Yes, it all depends on who was in the boat. Pre-Columbian (even pre-CE) activities in the Southwest may ultimately tie many of the mysteries into a tidy bundle some day. Subject matter? I guess I need to go back and determine exactly what that is here.
 

i have been working with the code on the Tayopa letter..it is not the same code as the stones ...very close ..
i now have a list of the mines at this location..

the EL Paramo placer (waltz's placer )
the Jesus Maria y jose mine (Ma Mine )
the TAYOPA mine (PA Mine)
the Remedios (Rio or Hoya)
 

HIO BB, I will make it easer for you, check attachment.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

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Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp said:
HIO BB, I will make it easer for you, check attachment.

Don Jose de La Mancha
whats your sorce RT for that list of names


i am not question your finds RT ,i found something interesting about the listed mines on the trove list ..
they could not have changed something they never knew existed ...lol
why dont the jesuits know about the 5 bell ...? because i am right . they change the data on the inventory list .. and the stones but the 5 th bell was never on that list or stones ,,,,.... thats why they never knew about it ...

these mines were Peralta owned , at lest the one mine was .. note he says " y jose mine" there was a Peralta with the letter Y in his name is this person saying this is a mexican mine , and its funny this is the same mine i can link to the peralta and waltz ...

i dont know what your mines have to do with these mines .. i only know someone went to a very lot of time to cover up and hide these mines ,, there are 3 of them plus the El Paramo placer

this is the frist time i have been able to list all 3 of these mines by there TAYOPA names , i am hopeing this will help me define their peralta names ..

i know the hangging rock has the letters JM on it and it may stand for the jose mine or jesus maria ...or jacob mine ...
 

Don Jose,

This just keeps getting curiouser and curiouser. :icon_scratch: Will it never end? :dontknow:

Take care,

Joe
 

cactusjumper said:
Don Jose,

This just keeps getting curiouser and curiouser. :icon_scratch: Will it never end? :dontknow:

Take care,

Joe

joe i am not trying to debate with anyone .. the reason i ask RT is for a few problems that are still going to be solved in the near future ..

one i prove these 3 mines are real mines . they are not just legends ..

and i can prove waltz did take one of these mines . the jesus maria y jose mine ,... and yes i do know a nother mine has tried to take this name ., but thats means nothing if the real mine is found ..


its not proveing the LDM is real thats the problem . its proveing what peralta mine it was before waltz took it ...

i under stand just what your saying . i wish the jesuits had not tried to rename the mines .. but the fact is they did and thats why know one has been able to solve these legends ...

they became mixed together and untill they are define on their own again it will be near imposable to tell what they are and why ..


i dont question what you and many others beleive . it has never been about what others think is the truth . it is about the truth it self ..
i am not picking sides here ..

i have found the 3 mines and the placer and i have seen 2 mines and the placer so i know for a fact the 3 mine is there .. the stones and the letter and the sighting in 1959 tell me this is the TAYOPA mine . mayb e nopt the same Tayopa that RT has found but i can not say what he has found only what i have found ...

lots of people can say they found the lost dutchman mine .. i can walk right to it .. thats the difrence between them and me joe .. i am not guessing ...

and the question was not directed to you ...

i was asking RT a question ...
 

bb,

"and the question was not directed to you ...

i was asking RT a question ..."
______________________________

My comment was not directed to you, but Don Jose.

This question is directed directly to you:

Are you saying there is a placer deposit just north of Bluff Spring Mountain, or anywhere else in the Western half of the Superstitions? :dontknow:

Do you believe that Tim Haydock writes non-fiction? :read2: Just askin. :wink:

Thanks,

Joe
 

cactusjumper said:
bb,

"and the question was not directed to you ...

i was asking RT a question ..."
______________________________

My comment was not directed to you, but Don Jose.

This question is directed directly to you:

Are you saying there is a placer deposit just north of Bluff Spring Mountain, or anywhere else in the Western half of the Superstitions? :dontknow:

Do you believe that Tim Haydock writes non-fiction? :read2: Just askin. :wink:

Thanks,

Joe

" yes "i have no doubt what so ever there is a placer deposite .. i know why no one has found it and it is the EL Paramo placer ...there is a very good reason why it has not been found ,, take a good look at the tayopa letter .. . and i dont beleive anything i can not see with my own two eyes ...the placer is there ,, joe ,, you can call it anything you want ....

i did not think there were any strong placers in the supers .. i was wrong just as much as you are now ...

as far as tim's writting ..the letter was the only thing i was interested in other then bell that was found ...

see i know how to find that tunnle . and i do beleive those bells are in that tunnle ... they can not be in two diffrent places at the same time .. and we know the statue never left the tunnle ...i think we will find out the treasure is still there ... i have seen both the Hoya and the ma mine .. i think that makes my odds of seeing the tunnle a lot better then yours joe ... :wink: :coffee2:
 

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