Possible source of stone used in Peralta tablets

[deducer]

Sounds like fun! I haven't done one of these in a few years and it would be like the real old west when everybody was busy burying treasure instead of looking for buried treasure. I'm getting older and my eyesight isn't what it used to be so how about we do it this way:

Meet outside the saloon at high noon, walk 5 paces turn and fire. Last poster to die WINS!!!

In other words, you don't have the "3 DAI reports," and never did.

 

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[deducer]

The DAI team of scientists that tested the Peralta rocks included Beth Miksa.

Finally got around to digging out my notes on the DAI appraisal of the Stone Maps. And just to double-check, I decided to reach out to DAI again. I had a nice conversation with Dr. Herr, the other day.

She reiterates that no testing was ever done on the Stone Maps.

The examination was cursory, and non-invasive.

Naw - I was going to direct you to some material to help you understand how to determine the difference between an electric powered drill and a mechanical drill in rock carving.

No determination was made as to whether electrical or manual drilling was utilized on the Stone Maps.

Since a formal project was never commissioned by Arizona Highway, the examination was done as a pro-bono courtesy.

 

[TheFatDutchman]

I'm pretty sure that not even the current Tumlinsons know just exactly how the Stone Maps came to be in TT's possession.

I, myself, am pretty sure that through Peg Leg, the family had already been in possession of at least one Stone Map. And it's plausible that TT may have found the trail maps (sandstone maps) at a later date. His descriptions of finding them stacked or buried face to face, preserving the flat, carved sides just contains more details than usual.

RG has been caught in so many lies it's hard to make sense of what really happened.

TT reportedly found a cache of hand-cobbled gold ore.

And as far as where the money went, Aileen is said to have made some large land purchases in Texas after Travis's died. Perhaps a property search would yield some results? There is also reportedly a Tumlinson trust fund.

My knowledge as far as the Tumlinsons is pretty limited. @gollum and @sgtfda know far more and probably could add more if they so desired.

Where can I learn more about the cobbled ore that TT found? Are there pictures? Is there any evidence that he found something? Thanks in advance for taking time to read and respond.

 

[deducer]

Where can I learn more about the cobbled ore that TT found? Are there pictures? Is there any evidence that he found something? Thanks in advance for taking time to read and respond.

There's not much to go on other than the rumor that Travis Tumlinson found a cache, other than the spate of property purchases that supposedly followed at a later point in time (not in his name, though).

I'm pretty sure there are no pictures. At the time that TT located that cache, it was still illegal to own gold. He would probably have kept it as much of a secret as he could, so there's no smoking gun in the way of evidence, which is commonly the case with treasure hunters who tend not to boast unless they're pretty dumb.

Tom Kollenborn was allegedly shown the hole that it came out of.

 

[josh711]

This Polzar?

From Tom Kollenborn:

If they are fake then I must have made this in 1847?

 

[sgtfda]

There's not much to go on other than the rumor that Travis Tumlinson found a cache, other than the spate of property purchases that supposedly followed at a later point in time (not in his name, though).

I'm pretty sure there are no pictures. At the time that TT located that cache, it was still illegal to own gold. He would probably have kept it as much of a secret as he could, so there's no smoking gun in the way of evidence, which is commonly the case with treasure hunters who tend not to boast unless they're pretty dumb.

Tom Kollenborn was allegedly shown the hole that it came out of.

Before he passed Tom K and I were on a Jeep ride in Hewitt. He stopped and showed me the spot. He later gave me copies of some of Garman's slide photos. One had Travis and Phil standing next to the hole. The three had been searching the Hewitt area. When Garman died Toms daughter was his nurse. Under the bed was a million in cash. Travis had a million in gold from that hole and after his death his wife started buying property. A lot of property. Keep in mind the gold was found in the 50's. Worth a lot more today. I suspect the three split the gold. I also had a call from Texas. A Member of the family talking about the gold. I was tossing the idea around of checking the spot with a gold detector. May be some pieces still in the hole. It was clearly a large cache. All of this has nothing to do with the stone maps. I was told they were just screwing around looking over the area with Garman as the guide. Travis carved the stones using the Peg Leg map as a guide adding stuff. He then buried them next to Peg Legs cabin in a wet area to age them. Phil's daughter in-law witnessed that event and told me about it before she passed. As with most treasure stories there is a little truth mixed with a lot of bull. The cobbled gold story is true. I suspect the gold came from the pitt mine area. Buy the way one of the maps Ruth had on him was of that same area including the spot the cached gold was found. Ain't that the shits. Tex had that map hidden and it recently came to light. It's included in Jacks new book. But that's a whole other story. It's funny how things come together. The trick is filtering out the bull shit.

 

[josh711]

View attachment 2124250View attachment 2124252

If they are fake then I must have made this in 1847?

I love to watch people playing scientist. It's like watching children play war. They don't have a clue how the tools and the strategy work but they have a great time imagining wonderful battles and grand victories.

Maybe pay more attention to the precision of the language used in science and less time trying to "interpret" what you think the science says? What you present here is a rebuttal to statements and ideas that were not presented by DAI. Your paraphrasing changed the meaning and intent of the DAI report.

Here a good place to start -

Naw - I was going to direct you to some material to help you understand how to determine the difference between an electric powered drill and a mechanical drill in rock carving. - never mind, I can see the more education you are exposed to the more alternate histories you will postulate.

I wish we could stay on subject here. Trying to present arguments about why every expert that has studied the stones came to the same wrong conclusion isn't really addressing the subject "Possible source of stone used in Peralta tablets".

I'll ask again - does anyone have any actual knowledge of the source of the stone other than the 4 independent published assessments by experts?

 

[TheFatDutchman]

Before he passed Tom K and I were on a Jeep ride in Hewitt. He stopped and showed me the spot. He later gave me copies of some of Garman's slide photos. One had Travis and Phil standing next to the hole. The three had been searching the Hewitt area. When Garman died Toms daughter was his nurse. Under the bed was a million in cash. Travis had a million in gold from that hole and after his death his wife started buying property. A lot of property. Keep in mind the gold was found in the 50's. Worth a lot more today. I suspect the three split the gold. I also had a call from Texas. A Member of the family talking about the gold. I was tossing the idea around of checking the spot with a gold detector. May be some pieces still in the hole. It was clearly a large cache. All of this has nothing to do with the stone maps. I was told they were just screwing around looking over the area with Garman as the guide. Travis carved the stones using the Peg Leg map as a guide adding stuff. He then buried them next to Peg Legs cabin in a wet area to age them. Phil's daughter in-law witnessed that event and told me about it before she passed. As with most treasure stories there is a little truth mixed with a lot of bull. The cobbled gold story is true. I suspect the gold came from the pitt mine area. Buy the way one of the maps Ruth had on him was of that same area including the spot the cached gold was found. Ain't that the shits. Tex had that map hidden and it recently came to light. It's included in Jacks new book. But that's a whole other story. It's funny how things come together. The trick is filtering out the bull shit.

Sorry for my ignorance, but who is Phil?

Bob Garmin
Travis Tumlinson
Phil?

Thanks for your response!

 

[TheFatDutchman]

Sorry for my ignorance, but who is Phil?

Bob Garmin
Travis Tumlinson
Phil?

Thanks for your response!

Also...

I see on the Tom Kollenborn Chronicles website that Bob Garman found the stone maps and sold them to Robert Tumlinson

So which was it, did Tumlinson find them or Bob Garmon? I am confused.

The Peralta Stone Maps

May 11, 2015 © Thomas J. Kollenborn. All Rights Reserved. The topic of the Peralta Stone maps is one of the most interesting subjects asso...

superstitionmountaintomkollenborn.blogspot.com

"
According to Robert L. Garman, a Mexican bracero who worked for John Hart building a fence near the north bank of Queen Creek east of the highway (U.S. Highway 60-70), made the original discovery. The fence was aligned east to west near Black Point. The bracero, while setting posts for this fence, noticed an unusually large flat stone in the side of his posthole. He worked the stone lose and found it had cryptic writing on it. He also recognized a Spanish word. He noticed the rock was covered with Indian petroglyphs and some Spanish markings. Not understanding the significance of his discovery the Bracero hauled the stone to Florence Junction, a few miles away. He planned on selling the stone to a passing tourist for a few dollars.

He arrived at Florence Junction after walking and lugging the flat stone some three miles. He borrowed a water hose at the service station and washed the stone off carefully preparing it for a curious tourist. He found such a person in Robert G. Tummilson of Portland, Oregon. Tummilson, a retired police officer, examined the rock and decided a fair price would be $10.00. This was almost a week’s wages for the Mexican laborer. Tummilson was now the proud owner of a stone with some cryptic writing on it.

After this interesting purchase, Tummilson continued his journey on to Phoenix to visit his brother."

 

[deducer]

Sorry for my ignorance, but who is Phil?

Bob Garmin
Travis Tumlinson
Phil?

Thanks for your response!

Phil Leasman, Travis's uncle.

 

[deducer]

Also...

I see on the Tom Kollenborn Chronicles website that Bob Garman found the stone maps and sold them to Robert Tumlinson

So which was it, did Tumlinson find them or Bob Garmon? I am confused.

The Peralta Stone Maps

May 11, 2015 © Thomas J. Kollenborn. All Rights Reserved. The topic of the Peralta Stone maps is one of the most interesting subjects asso...

superstitionmountaintomkollenborn.blogspot.com

"
According to Robert L. Garman, a Mexican bracero who worked for John Hart building a fence near the north bank of Queen Creek east of the highway (U.S. Highway 60-70), made the original discovery. The fence was aligned east to west near Black Point. The bracero, while setting posts for this fence, noticed an unusually large flat stone in the side of his posthole. He worked the stone lose and found it had cryptic writing on it. He also recognized a Spanish word. He noticed the rock was covered with Indian petroglyphs and some Spanish markings. Not understanding the significance of his discovery the Bracero hauled the stone to Florence Junction, a few miles away. He planned on selling the stone to a passing tourist for a few dollars.

He arrived at Florence Junction after walking and lugging the flat stone some three miles. He borrowed a water hose at the service station and washed the stone off carefully preparing it for a curious tourist. He found such a person in Robert G. Tummilson of Portland, Oregon. Tummilson, a retired police officer, examined the rock and decided a fair price would be $10.00. This was almost a week’s wages for the Mexican laborer. Tummilson was now the proud owner of a stone with some cryptic writing on it.

After this interesting purchase, Tummilson continued his journey on to Phoenix to visit his brother."

You're not alone in your confusion. There are many conflicting story about the discovery of the Stone Maps. It is up to each person to draw their own conclusion as to what really happened.

 

[sgtfda]

There's not much to go on other than the rumor that Travis Tumlinson found a cache, other than the spate of property purchases that supposedly followed at a later point in time (not in his name, though).

I'm pretty sure there are no pictures. At the time that TT located that cache, it was still illegal to own gold. He would probably have kept it as much of a secret as he could, so there's no smoking gun in the way of evidence, which is commonly the case with treasure hunters who tend not to boast unless they're pretty dumb.

Tom Kollenborn was allegedly shown the hole that it came out of.

Before he passed Tom K and I were on a Jeep ride in Hewitt. He stopped and showed me the spot. He later gave me copies of some of Garman's slide photos. One had Travis and Phil standing next to the hole. The three had been searching the Hewitt area. When Garman died Toms daughter was his nurse. Under the bed was a million in cash. Travis had a million in gold from that hole and after his death his wife started buying property. A lot of property. Keep in mind the gold was found in the 50's. Worth a lot more today. I suspect the three split the gold. I also had a call from Texas. A Member of the family talking about the gold. I was tossing the idea around of checking the spot with a gold detector. May be some pieces still in the hole. It was clearly a large cache. All of this has nothing to do with the stone maps. I was told they were just screwing around looking over the area with Garman as the guide. Travis carved the stones using the Peg Leg map as a guide adding stuff. He then buried them next to Peg Legs cabin in a wet area to age them. Phil's daughter in-law witnessed that event and told me about it before she passed. As with most treasure stories there is a little truth mixed with a lot of bull. The cobbled gold story is true. I suspect the gold came from the pitt mine area. Buy the way one of the maps Ruth had on him was of that same area including the spot the cached gold was found. Ain't that the shits. Tex had that map hidden and it recently came to light. It's included in Jacks new book. But that's a whole other story. It's funny how things come together. The trick is filtering out the bull shit

Also...

I see on the Tom Kollenborn Chronicles website that Bob Garman found the stone maps and sold them to Robert Tumlinson

So which was it, did Tumlinson find them or Bob Garmon? I am confused.

The Peralta Stone Maps

May 11, 2015 © Thomas J. Kollenborn. All Rights Reserved. The topic of the Peralta Stone maps is one of the most interesting subjects asso...

superstitionmountaintomkollenborn.blogspot.com

"
According to Robert L. Garman, a Mexican bracero who worked for John Hart building a fence near the north bank of Queen Creek east of the highway (U.S. Highway 60-70), made the original discovery. The fence was aligned east to west near Black Point. The bracero, while setting posts for this fence, noticed an unusually large flat stone in the side of his posthole. He worked the stone lose and found it had cryptic writing on it. He also recognized a Spanish word. He noticed the rock was covered with Indian petroglyphs and some Spanish markings. Not understanding the significance of his discovery the Bracero hauled the stone to Florence Junction, a few miles away. He planned on selling the stone to a passing tourist for a few dollars.

He arrived at Florence Junction after walking and lugging the flat stone some three miles. He borrowed a water hose at the service station and washed the stone off carefully preparing it for a curious tourist. He found such a person in Robert G. Tummilson of Portland, Oregon. Tummilson, a retired police officer, examined the rock and decided a fair price would be $10.00. This was almost a week’s wages for the Mexican laborer. Tummilson was now the proud owner of a stone with some cryptic writing on it.

After this interesting purchase, Tummilson continued his journey on to Phoenix to visit his brother."

No one found the stones. Travis made them. There were several others in the works.

 

[TheFatDutchman]

Before he passed Tom K and I were on a Jeep ride in Hewitt. He stopped and showed me the spot. He later gave me copies of some of Garman's slide photos. One had Travis and Phil standing next to the hole. The three had been searching the Hewitt area. When Garman died Toms daughter was his nurse. Under the bed was a million in cash. Travis had a million in gold from that hole and after his death his wife started buying property. A lot of property. Keep in mind the gold was found in the 50's. Worth a lot more today. I suspect the three split the gold. I also had a call from Texas. A Member of the family talking about the gold. I was tossing the idea around of checking the spot with a gold detector. May be some pieces still in the hole. It was clearly a large cache. All of this has nothing to do with the stone maps. I was told they were just screwing around looking over the area with Garman as the guide. Travis carved the stones using the Peg Leg map as a guide adding stuff. He then buried them next to Peg Legs cabin in a wet area to age them. Phil's daughter in-law witnessed that event and told me about it before she passed. As with most treasure stories there is a little truth mixed with a lot of bull. The cobbled gold story is true. I suspect the gold came from the pitt mine area. Buy the way one of the maps Ruth had on him was of that same area including the spot the cached gold was found. Ain't that the shits. Tex had that map hidden and it recently came to light. It's included in Jacks new book. But that's a whole other story. It's funny how things come together. The trick is filtering out the bull shit

No one found the stones. Travis made them. There were several others in the works.

I understand and am ok with the stones being a hoax, but my question is why was Bob Garman in on it? What did he have to gain. He told Tom K that was the one that found them and sold them to Travis, while Travis said he found them. They couldn't get their stories straight. I just am curious on why they were in cahoots.

 

[sdcfia]

. . . It's funny how things come together. The trick is filtering out the bull shit
. . .
No one found the stones. Travis made them. There were several others in the works.

By far, the most interesting actor in this soap opera saga is Pegleg Tumlinson.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I understand and am ok with the stones being a hoax, but my question is why was Bob Garman in on it? What did he have to gain. He told Tom K that was the one that found them and sold them to Travis, while Travis said he found them. They couldn't get their stories straight. I just am curious on why they were in cahoots.

Perhaps they weren't in cahoots, but at the same time, perhaps neither could tell the truth in public about the origin of the stones.

There are about 6 stories that I can think of, off the top of my head, that have different people either finding or making the stones.

Most, if not all, of these stories originated with treasure hunters, who may want to tell the story, but don't want to betray confidences...or they don't want to reveal information they think is too important.

Let's assume, for a moment, that a treasure hunter believes the stones really were found somewhere. He may believe that the location where the stones were found may be crucial to deciphering them. So perhaps the location they were found might be concealed and an alternate location provided to throw everyone else off. Likewise, if a treasure hunter doesn't want anyone showing up at his house and ransacking it, perhaps he may say someone else found them. If he was, say, writing a book and wanted every treasure hunter to buy it, he may say he found the stones rather than the actual guy that found them...who probably doesn't want to be identified anyway.

Then you have guys like Polzer, who have a vested interest in protecting both the history and future of the Jesuits, who had been thrown out of countries and disbanded by the Pope, something they don't want to happen again. So any linking of the stones to a Jesuit origin would be resisted.

It's an interesting and tangled story. But it's a treasure story, so personally I'd go into it assuming everything in print is either untrue, a misdirection, or critical components are being concealed. You have to make up your own mind.

 

[sdcfia]

. . . . It's an interesting and tangled story. But it's a treasure story, so personally I'd go into it assuming everything in print is either untrue, a misdirection, or critical components are being concealed. You have to make up your own mind.

Well put. Treasure Hunting 101, Chapter 1, Page 1.

 

[deducer]

I understand and am ok with the stones being a hoax, but my question is why was Bob Garman in on it? What did he have to gain. He told Tom K that was the one that found them and sold them to Travis, while Travis said he found them. They couldn't get their stories straight. I just am curious on why they were in cahoots.

Robert Garman and Travis Tumlinson were not in cahoots.

Robert Garman claims to have first met Robert and Travis Tumlinson in 1952, in Randolph Canyon, RT was with a few men including Travis, and told RG that he had some "Spanish maps" with him. RG offered to stop by and take a look to see if he could help decipher them. This apparently never occured, or if it did, RG did not talk about it.

RG said that at the time he had been told about the discovery of the Stone Maps but it is not clear if he actually got a chance to look at them.

RG said that for the next 10 years or so, until 1962, the Tumlinsons were searching every canyon from Miner's Needle down to Hewitt Canyon and along Queen Creek, without much success.

From the other site:

He (RG) also mentions that Travis's widow gave the maps to a friend and Travis never once talked about the maps to him. Furthermore Travis would not allow Robert to have the maps photographed clearly as he wanted no one outside the 2 of them to know what was on them. Most of their searches were in small groups and were comprised of family members or friends. Often it would be Just Robert and his wife searching.

The last search Robert was making that Garman met him was in Millsite canyon around 1961-2. Garman was working on a story about the maps with Robert but was working "blind" since he had never actually seen them. Next thing he knew Mitchell had control of them (Stone Maps).

 

[TheFatDutchman]

Phil Leasman, Travis's uncle.

There are so many people involved.

Are Phil Leasman and Roger Tumlinson brothers?

Both are uncles to Travis, are they Peg-leg's brothers?

Here are the people involved so far, let me know if I am missing anyone...

Travis Tumlinson - claimed to have found them and probably created stone maps
Bob Ward - claimed to have found them
Roger Tumlinson - uncle to Travis
Phil Leasman - uncle to Travis
Bob Garman - claimed to have found stone maps and then claimed to sell them to Travis

This is quite confusing - is there a resource that tries to explain their relationship to each other and to the stone maps?

 

[deducer]

There are so many people involved.
Are Phil Leasman and Roger Tumlinson brothers?

I think you mean Robert Tumlinson?

Robert and Phil were not brothers. Phil was Travis Tumlinson's uncle on his mother side (Alice Leasman). Robert was the brother of Travis's father, John.

Both are uncles to Travis, are they Peg-leg's brothers?

Robert Tumlinson's father was Peg-leg Tumlinson.

Here are the people involved so far, let me know if I am missing anyone...
Travis Tumlinson - claimed to have found them and probably created stone maps
Bob Ward - claimed to have found them
Roger Tumlinson - uncle to Travis
Phil Leasman - uncle to Travis
Bob Garman - claimed to have found stone maps and then claimed to sell them to Travis

I don't want to discourage you but the number of people involved with the Stone Maps, either during the time Travis was exploring, or thereafter is quite a bit more than what you listed. As you do more research and reading, you will become familiar with the prominent players in this story.

This is quite confusing - is there a resource that tries to explain their relationship to each other and to the stone maps?

"Treasure Tales of the Superstitions" by T.E. Glover is a good place to start.

 

[cuzimloony]

So about 100 years old in the 1960’s 🥹🤷🏼‍♂️
that’s interesting information. 😁👍

Ding ding ding .
Odd that!