Pirate Treasure-Trying to get a permit to dig up

[BeenThereDoneThat2]

Research More

This post is for anyone reading this thread. I know I tend to say things I shouldn't. Some times I let people get to me and it brings out the worst in me. I am really not the a-hole I may appear to be if you were to judge me by what is said on here. My sincerest apologies to anyone I have offended. This is for ECS too.

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Research more, run off at the mouth less.​

 

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[Bigdogdad]

View attachment 960058 Research more, run off at the mouth less.​

Before I reply to this I want to know who you are referring to. Me? ECS? Salvor6? Everybody?

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

No matter who it was directed at it is uncalled for and violates our rules...

" Help keep the atmosphere at TreasureNet fun! Sniping, name calling, denegration and other generally negative or abusive actions are grounds for moderation. In extreme cases grounds for banning!"






American by birth, Patriot by choice.

I would rather die standing on my two feet defending our Constitution than live a lifetime on my knees......

 

[BeenThereDoneThat2]

Before I reply to this I want to know who you are referring to. Me? ECS? Salvor6? Everybody?

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[Bigdogdad]

I will assume it was directed at me as it was my post that was quoted.

I heard stories for 40 plus years from locals, construction workers building the overpass and others that Rocky Bluff was a known hangout for all types of characters including but not limited to pirates.

Many of these stories were of pirate/nautical type artifacts being found (but not reported) to include swords.chests. canons, cannonballs and more.

There is a bar at the river now known as Woody's River Roo but it has gone thru many owners.

The construction workers and others at the bar would tell first hand stories of finding these things.

Call this legend, lore or whatever you want but it is sometimes much more accurate than anything found in print.

You can do "research" in many different ways.

I got the opportunity in 1987 to take a confirmed successful dowser by the area.

He pointed out a specific spot and told me he was sure it was a large pile of buried silver.

I met some electronic experts at the site around 1990 and on their own they located the same spot and told me it was a large pile of buried silver.

Years passed and then I got the idea to try to get permission to do a survey and dig at the site.

I went to the State Department of Transportation and met with the head guy and the state lawyer.

They were receptive to the idea of letting me dig and gave me the paperwork I needed.

I never followed thru with anything regarding this spot at that time.

I read everything I could find concerning this site.

Years passed and I joined Treasurenet in 2012.

Without going into details some TNET members confirmed that they thought there was a large pile of non-ferrous metal at the EXACT same spot.

They wanted to dig but agreed to wait and see if I could get permission although they were convinced I could not.

I was turned down.

This thread was stated by me as I wanted to share the story and ask the members on here for advice on how they might proceed if it were them.

I have gotten dozens of different opinions on what to do with about 95% of them being what I would consider illegal.

I have had to endure derision, sarcasm, doubt, and being pretty much told that I don't know what I'm talking about concerning this particular site.

I have mentioned numerous times that if one were to research hard enough you could find stories that would back up what I claim may be buried at this site.

One of the "top" researchers on TNET made many posts stating that he did not believe any stories of treasure being buried at Rocky Bluff.

This story has come full circle.

Now this very same researcher is telling another TNET member that it is a fact not a myth that silver bars have been found at this very site.

Now someone has posted (and I believe it was directed at me) to research more and run off at the mouth less.

Well maybe I should take this advice and quit posting my stories on here.

An apology might make me reconsider although I should not have to ask for one.

 

[Bigdogdad]

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I would highly recommend that you follow your own advice.

 

[Salvor6]

Hey ECS, that is a very interesting link you posted about the Florida skunk ape and Dr. Hudson. He told me about that event during one of our long conversations. He was out there in the everglades searching for a Spanish wall built from Spanish concrete known as "tabby". The link provided more details of his expedition. He mentioned the terrible smell. Hudson was NOT searching for big foot. He was there searching for Spanish colonial artifacts.

 

[ECS]

Salvor6,The 3 silver bars that were found at Rocky Bluff were dated to the Civil War era,maybe connected to the blockade running activities of Capt John Curry or Capt Archibald McNeil.You may have heard of Curry's schooner,the ARIEL,that was captured by the Union.Also,that area of Manatee county was made up of merchants,sugar cane growers,and cattle ranchers who supplied the Confederacy,and yes,like Jacob Summerlin,only dealt in gold or silver.
The silvers bars were thought to have been randomly dropped during an unloading,and NOT part of a larger cache,and had nothing to do with pirates.

 

[BeenThereDoneThat2]

ECS

ECS: Came upon this short video of some of the recovery work at Fowlers Bluff in 2012/13.
Thought you might be interested if you have not seen it.

FOWLERS BLUFF - YouTube

 

[Bigdogdad]

Back on topic, I'm still curious about the vacuum truck and the cleaning out of the alluvium from between the limestone under the bridge. BDD You indicated that you watched him for some time but showed only one photo. Can you expand on the activities and was this before the planting of the trees?

They only searched/sucked/dug in two spots. Neither of these two spots were even close to where the trees were planted. This was 6 months before the planting of the trees. I am not going to claim that this was all some sort of conspiracy and that they were actually hired to search for treasure. It did seem to me that they may have known who I was and were hoping I would tell them where to dig.

I had a contact person high up in the Sarasota DOT division. When I saw all the activity I called him to ask about it. Even though this was in his area, he claimed he did not know anything about what they were doing.

As I have stated before, there is more than one area of interest for me at this site. They did plant the trees right in the general area of where I think some gold was. If they found anything of value, I don't think anybody reported it.

 

[Bigdogdad]

ECS: Came upon this short video of some of the recovery work at Fowlers Bluff in 2012/13. Thought you might be interested if you have not seen it. FOWLERS BLUFF - YouTube

This was at the restaurant. Most of what is shown is part of a dock building effort. None of this looked like it had anything to do with the dig at the same location that was going on when I was there.

 

[Bigdogdad]

that area of Manatee county was made up of merchants,sugar cane growers,and cattle ranchers who supplied the Confederacy,and yes,like Jacob Summerlin,only dealt in gold or silver.

Where did they keep their gold/silver and what happened to it?

ECS-Please provide a link to where you got your info on the silver bars.

 

[ECS]

Where did they keep their gold/silver and what happened to it?

ECS-Please provide a link to where you got your info on the silver bars.

August 4,1864,the Union destroyed James McKay Sr's saltworks on the Manatee River and Craig's sugar mill in Ellenton.Curry,McKay,and McNeil had a dock on the Manatee River where they loaded their blockading contraband.I do not know the exact location of this dock,but it was in this area that the bars were found.
The USS STONEWALL was the Union vessel involved in this mission,and the Capt also reported that his men burnt a sawmill owned by Jefferson Davis.I do not know if Davis ownership is true.
If you remember the lost cattle payment from "SWAMP GOLD",that is the same CSA Capt James McKay who was the CSA Commissary Agent for South Florida at Fort Meade,and blockade runner Capt McNeil who sailed CSA Sec of State Judah P Benjamin to the Bahamas.
One other connection in Benjamin's escape,is Manatee county resident,CSA Capt Leroy G Lesley,who moved from Abbeville,SC to Manatee county.It was at Marshall's White Hall Plantation in Abbeville,where Davis,Benjamin,Breckinridge,and Wood made their escape plans.
The Marshall family also had a plantation on the Oklawaha River in Marion county(the Union,March 10,1865 raid has been detailed on other threads),and Wood,Jeff Davis's nephew,was also the grandson of US President Zachery Taylor,who served at commander at Fort King (Ocala) during the Seminloe War.They all had connections to Florida,excluding Breckinridge.

 

[ECS]

ECS: Came upon this short video of some of the recovery work at Fowlers Bluff in 2012/13..

Fowlers Bluff on the Suwannee River was also used by Confederate blockade runners-cotton bales would be loaded upon their schooners which they ran to the Bahamas for British gold and silver.It was CSA Sec of State Judah P Benjamin(a KGC leader and David Levy Yulee's cousin) who set up these blockading trade routes.

 

[Bigdogdad]

August 4,1864,the Union destroyed James McKay Sr's saltworks on the Manatee River and Craig's sugar mill in Ellenton. If you remember the lost cattle payment from "SWAMP GOLD",that is the same CSA Capt James McKay who was the CSA Commissary Agent for South Florida at Fort Meade,and blockade runner Capt McNeil who sailed CSA Sec of State Judah P Benjamin to the Bahamas.

Rocky Bluff is in Ellenton. Gamble plantation is in Ellenton. Sure was a lot of activity for such a small place. Fort Meade was where Ovid and the "Duke of Pahokee" pulled the possible gold filled ammo box out of the roots of the tree on the Peace River. Did you see the pics I put on the "SWAMP GOLD" thread of what I found at "Cloud Mountain" 50 feet from where the gold may be buried.

 

[ECS]

THE PATH LESS FOLLOWED,THOUGH CLUES HAVE BEEN DROPPED

Rocky Bluff is in Ellenton. Gamble plantation is in Ellenton. Sure was a lot of activity for such a small place. Fort Meade ...

The area of piracy in Gulf Coast Florida did not last as long as the era on the east coast and in the Carribean,BECAUSE it started at a MUCH LATER DATE.
When Spain sold Florida to the US in 1821,the end was near for Florida's Gulf coast pirates.
Commodore David Porter's West Coast Anti-Piracy Squadron stationed out of Thompson's Island (Key West)had ended all pirate activity by 1825
NOTE:The Monroe County Public Library has the complete collections of these records,and historian/curator Tom Hambright will make them available by appointment 305-809-5260,or answer your questions concerning this subject.
Once Florida became a part of the US,the Army,settlers,homesteaders moved in and began the GreatAmerican Pastime of moving the Native Americans out,which didn't sit well with the Seminole tribe-3 wars with no surrender or treaty signed-the Seminoles won.
During this time period,while piracy had ended,Florida's Gulf coast had families that were fishermen,some smugglers,and involved in the slave trade-David Levy Yulee had a slave ship registered out of Jacksonville.These same families became the CSA blockade runners of Florida's Gulf coast.
ROCKY BLUFF,ELLENTON,GAMBLE MANSION,FORT MEADE (slight return)
CSA Sec of State Judah P Benjamin set up the Confederate blockaded running routes,in Florida he had family connection,the Yulee(cousin) in Fernadina,Cedar Key,and Homosassa,and the Benjamin brothers(cousins) in Ocala,Marion county.J P Benjamin was a founder with Albrt Pike of the KGC in New Orleans,and the third member,John Slidell served as Benjamins trade liason for the CSA in Europe.
After Richmond fell,April 2,1865,President Davis and cabinet,with the Confederate Treasury fled to Danville,Virginia.While there,Benjamin gave CSA Major E S Hutter his personal copy of Vattel's LAW OF NATIONS,which was used by Benjamin as a CSA code book.
NOTE:Hutter's brother and cousin J B Ward are behind the publication of 1885 BEALE PAPERS treasure.
With CSA Sec of War,John C Breckinridge and Davis's nephew,CSA Capt John Taylor Wood,Benjamin fled to Florida with remains of CSA Treasury (including Mexican silver dollars),down the Oklawaha to Ocala/Silver Springs,and then on to Gamble Plantation in Ellenton.He was aided by members of Fort Meade's "Cow Calvary" and Ellenton's blockade runner families.
NOTE:Union forces expected Davis and Benjamin to escape by way of Cedar Key,and had set up additional guard stations.
During the War of Northern Aggression,the Union were quite good at terrorizing the civilian population with raids of looting and burning down homesteads,and yes rapes occured(I have posted diary links on other threads that detail this).The did hide their valuables,be it gold,silver specie,or jewelry.
Reconstruction was not much better for Floridians,land and property were seized and sold cheaply to carpetbaggers and scalawags,much given to the freemen.There was much resistence to this Federal activity,that many counties in Florida were placed under Marshal Law until 1867.
Reconstruction ended in 1872.
The tales of pirates on Florida's Gulf coast began to emerge in the 1880's-Egmont Key lighthouse keeper Charles Moore,Baird's Fowler Bluff pirate chest discovery,Dudley Patten of Ellenton tale of the black unmarked schooner leaving a square hole behind at Rocky Bluff-and in Virginia,the 1885 publication of the Beale Papers.
NOTE:When the SOUTH surrendered,all her assets became property of the United States.
Pirate treasure would not be.

 

[JT]

I heard stories for 40 plus years from locals, construction workers building the overpass and others that Rocky Bluff was a known hangout for all types of characters including but not limited to pirates. Many of these stories were of pirate/nautical type artifacts being found (but not reported) to include swords.chests. canons, cannonballs and more. There is a bar at the river now known as Woody's River Roo but it has gone thru many owners. The construction workers and others at the bar would tell first hand stories of finding these things. Call this legend, lore or whatever you want but it is sometimes much more accurate than anything found in print. You can do "research" in many different ways. I got the opportunity in 1987 to take a confirmed successful dowser by the area. He pointed out a specific spot and told me he was sure it was a large pile of buried silver. I met some electronic experts at the site around 1990 and on their own they located the same spot and told me it was a large pile of buried silver. Years passed and then I got the idea to try to get permission to do a survey and dig at the site. I went to the State Department of Transportation and met with the head guy and the state lawyer. They were receptive to the idea of letting me dig and gave me the paperwork I needed. I never followed thru with anything regarding this spot at that time. I read everything I could find concerning this site. Years passed and I joined Treasurenet in 2012. Without going into details some TNET members confirmed that they thought there was a large pile of non-ferrous metal at the EXACT same spot..

About the only thing more unreliable for information than construction workers in a bar are construction workers in the same bar claiming to have found those items yet are unable to produce them.

That is the danger in legend/lore....as stories are told, they morph, twist, and change to suit the teller of the tale. It's much like the game played by kids in school, where one child will whisper something to the next child, then that one will whisper what he was told to the next, until the message circulates throughout the group. The final rendering is always different from the first.

I admire your persistence, but it appears much of the information you go on comes from guys like those construction workers, people who claim to have knowledge of items yet can't produce any proof. Much like Ovid, who never actually showed you any tangible evidence of what was at any location he purported treasure to be located at.

I believe somewhere in a previous post I sugggested that you contact Governor Scott about your site by the bridge. He appears to have a disdain for ivory tower academics who get in the way of progress, so it might be beneficial to contact him, tell him what you believe is there (and why), and tell him about the red tape you've encountered in the State bureaucracy. Don't make it a Geraldo-Capone's vault story, just tell him your suspicions about what's buried there, ask to have clearance to dig, and tell him if what you believe to be buried there is truly under that rock, the state of Florida's financial difficulties would be eased. Simply propose a percentage finders fee for yourself, and make it clear that when you're finished with the dig (successful or not) that the site will be remediated to the same condition it was in pre-dig.

Don't tell him you know the location of hundreds of treasures based on the pendulum of an old man, don't tell him that you know the location of the Beale treasure, and don't tell him about digging up septic fields and dog caskets. Just keep it to a point where he won't face political embarrassment if the dig produces scrap metal instead of the tons of silver you believe is there.

 

[JT]

Hey ECS, that is a very interesting link you posted about the Florida skunk ape and Dr. Hudson. He told me about that event during one of our long conversations. He was out there in the everglades searching for a Spanish wall built from Spanish concrete known as "tabby". The link provided more details of his expedition. He mentioned the terrible smell. Hudson was NOT searching for big foot. He was there searching for Spanish colonial artifacts.

The same article about Bigfoot had his cohorts claiming there was a man made rock wall running for miles through the swamp, along with witnessed sightings (by supposedly trained archeologists) of pyramids adorned with hieroglyphics in Big Cypress Swamp.

That article was published 40 years ago, and for the life of me I can't fnd any reference showing the discovery of pyramids in Florida swamps.

Until proven otherwise, I'm not seeing anything credible coming from Dr Hudson or his cronies.

 

[Bigdogdad]

About the only thing more unreliable for information than construction workers in a bar are construction workers in the same bar claiming to have found those items yet are unable to produce them. That is the danger in legend/lore....as stories are told, they morph, twist, and change to suit the teller of the tale. It's much like the game played by kids in school, where one child will whisper something to the next child, then that one will whisper what he was told to the next, until the message circulates throughout the group. The final rendering is always different from the first. I admire your persistence, but it appears much of the information you go on comes from guys like those construction workers, people who claim to have knowledge of items yet can't produce any proof. Much like Ovid, who never actually showed you any tangible evidence of what was at any location he purported treasure to be located at. I believe somewhere in a previous post I sugggested that you contact Governor Scott about your site by the bridge. He appears to have a disdain for ivory tower academics who get in the way of progress, so it might be beneficial to contact him, tell him what you believe is there (and why), and tell him about the red tape you've encountered in the State bureaucracy. Don't make it a Geraldo-Capone's vault story, just tell him your suspicions about what's buried there, ask to have clearance to dig, and tell him if what you believe to be buried there is truly under that rock, the state of Florida's financial difficulties would be eased. Simply propose a percentage finders fee for yourself, and make it clear that when you're finished with the dig (successful or not) that the site will be remediated to the same condition it was in pre-dig. Don't tell him you know the location of hundreds of treasures based on the pendulum of an old man, don't tell him that you know the location of the Beale treasure, and don't tell him about digging up septic fields and dog caskets. Just keep it to a point where he won't face political embarrassment if the dig produces scrap metal instead of the tons of silver you believe is there.

Great post, lots of good points. I will respond to each. I am not sure why being a construction worker in a bar would make one's information unreliable. This is just your personal opinion. I have been a construction worker for the last 34 years so I guess that goes for me too. While in a bar people drink. When they drink they lose their inhibitions. When this happens people tend to say more than they should and may show something they otherwise would keep secret. Never have I said or implied that these same construction workers at the bar next to the bridge did not produce the items that they found. You just assume they didn't. Your example of the story game is true in some circumstances. Okay, so the worker finds a sword. He shows it off. Then what? The story becomes that he took it right out of Johnny Depp's hands. Next the worker's find a cannon. The story becomes they found 50 cannons. They find a silver bar. The story becomes they found tons of silver bars. I get the point you are trying to make, do you get mine?

I have a feeling that the third paragraph is putting me in with the workers as I can't produce any proof of anything. I did not need Ovid to show me any tangible evidence from the sites he took me to. I found some on my own. I am the only one that needs to believe or not believe in him. I have stated many times on TNET that Ovid put some members of Mel Fisher's team DIRECTLY on top of some Atocha gold. Ovid told me the exact details and I put them in my e-book. A very bold claim for me to make on this website. I must be pretty confident in his stories and abilities. Someone fairly recently told me that he heard of what Ovid did directly from someone high up in the Fisher group. There was no motivation for anyone to lie about any of this. Believe what you want to.

I remember you or someone suggesting that I contact Governor Scott. I had the idea to do the same thing from the moment I was turned down by the FDOT. I did want to make it a Geraldo like event and even had different people lined up to assist me with this venture. Probably not the best way to go but it gives you an idea of my confidence level on all this. Of course some might say it is just my desire for attention. Kind of like Geraldo I guess. Didn't seem to hurt his career. Most of the rest of what you say was proposed by me to the FDOT. Once any of my proposal reached the state archeologists it was turned down immediately. They want no part of this and don't want to encourage guys like me to go poking around looking for treasure.

I know that my many stories of different treasures and my inability to produce any of them does not help my credibility one iota and only makes me look like a blow hard seeking attention for myself. I would not being doing all this if I didn't believe my own stories. To this day I am pursuing treasure and hope to eventually find it. I will be picking up a Nokta Golden King detector Monday. It has the ability to see into the ground like GPR and in some ways even better as it seems to be able to tell you what is buried. I have read both good and bad about this detector so I chose to go see one work(or not work) with my own eyes instead of relying on the opinion of others. It seemed to work exactly like the claims said it could.

I have made many claims myself on here and I am sure there are lots of people reading my posts that think I am full of crap. More than a dozen TNET members have been to my house and some of my sites. Maybe I am wrong but I don't think any of them think I am full of crap. The Nokta found the lead that I buried. We did not have to find treasure for me to decide it works. My lack of being able to produce treasure so far does not mean that the treasures are not waiting to be found by someone that will dig in the right spot to the right depth. It ain't over till the fat guy digs.

JT- I wish to thank you for taking the time to put a post on here that has good advice and was well thought out. It is obvious that you are trying to help and that was the main purpose of me starting this thread.

 

[Jon Phillips]

The same article about Bigfoot had his cohorts claiming there was a man made rock wall running for miles through the swamp, along with witnessed sightings (by supposedly trained archeologists) of pyramids adorned with hieroglyphics in Big Cypress Swamp. That article was published 40 years ago, and for the life of me I can't fnd any reference showing the discovery of pyramids in Florida swamps. Until proven otherwise, I'm not seeing anything credible coming from Dr Hudson or his cronies.

I'm going to have to mostly agree with your assessment of the credibility of Dr. L. Frank Hudson and crew....with one difference...and that is the fact that I believe in many (but by no means all) treasure lore stories, there is a grain of truth.


The grain of truth in this story is that I believe there is a man-made limestone, tabby, or coquina wall somewhere in the Big Cypress. I, in no way whatsoever, believe the junk about it being six miles long!! Or the part that states that it was 6-8 feet high, with smooth, hard stones. I would love to know where in any part of south Florida you could find enough smooth, hard, stones to build a six mile wall, and two pyramids!!


The wall has been discussed on Tnet before, and I have a book with an eyewitness account of the wall...complete with pictures, but it was crumbling, 4&1/2-5 feet high, 30 inches wide, and almost 100 feet long, and made up of rocks 10-12 inches of uniform size, and rough, odd shapes...NOT smooth, hard, stones.


It was supposedly between to small Indian mounds 300 feet to the southeast, and north of it, and lay exactly east/west. The land was owned by a Mr. McDaniels, at least before 1979.

Now with that being said...

The rest of the story seems like all bunk!!

Especially the part where they had multiple visits from WHITE...That's right...WHITE!! Yeti's!! Even the actual accounts of Yeti's in the Himalayas were of brown-furred creatures...The only "white" Yeti's and Abominable Snowmen (Swampmen??) were from cartoons, and Hollywood fantasy! So these guys weren't just ripping off popular culture of the time, but Hollywood's "Scooby-Doo" episode version of it!!

They also found evidence of Atlantis?!

Add in all the pirate treasure stories, and these guys must have lived quite the life!! I have to believe that there is a "flying saucer/alien abduction while we were digging into burial mounds" story floating around out there from these guys! I mean...they covered, bigfoot, pirates, lost Egyptians in America, and Atlantis stories...why not midnight anal probes?

I have Frank Hudson and Gordon Prescott's book: LOST TREASURE of FLORIDA'S GULF COAST...I have had it since I was a kid...I used to drool all over it back then, before I started to put rational thought to it, and read actual history books that explained that most of the "pirates" in those old treasure lore books, turned out to be Spanish fishermen, that the U.S. was trying to prevent from supplying the Seminoles during the Seminole Wars. And that U.S. soldiers/sailors did break up some of those camps/towns, but not because of piracy.

I know times were different in Florida in the 60's and 70's....You had a lot more freedom....the government didn't really care what the average person was up to...and an "archeologist" back then wasn't the same as one today. These guys were called archeologists, but were part of private "archeological companies. There wasn't the disconnect between them and "us", and they obviously had no problem treasure hunting, selling info, and digging into burial mounds for private gain.

I have a later edition of that book that includes the "1978 postscripts" that show where some of the treasures had supposedly been recovered...much like the story of the "pirate chest" at Rocky Bluff. The problem is...some mention someone getting a "strong hit on a deep-seeking detector" and digging down 14 feet....I don't know of too many modern detectors that can approach those depths on even huge metal targets. There was also a mention of "a group from St. Petersburg" that dug into that particular Indian mound...(and found an iron cannon), it turned out, that in an article titled: "GULF COAST PREDATOR" Mr. Hudson was part of that group! Gulf Coast predator - Tags: TREASURE troves

I understand that some of you guys on here were friends of his...but I just have a hard time believing most of the things that are written in that book...or any other that he might have written.

I knew a man that told all kinds of far-fetched stories...he was one of Buddy Holly's "Crickets"....he was a full-blooded Cherokee...etc....He even spent his later years dressed up as a 40's-50's style movie Indian, braided wig and all....selling crap at the flea market.....He was none of the things he claimed, by the way...but I believe that HE believed some of them. He meant no harm by any of it...he just wanted to impress people.

When someone makes far-fetched claims, and can't back any of it up...I tend to smile, be polite, but not get involved with any of it. I'm sure that if I showed an interest in treasure stories...the old guy would have filled my head with them...just so I would listen to him, and he could feel important, but even as children, my cousins and I knew he was full of it!

Mr. Hudson did include a bibliography of sorts at the end of that book, but I suspect many of his leads and recovery stories were first, or second hand, verbal accounts by people just like the lonely old man that I knew...and the rest were probably by the (I'm sure) poorly researched pirate books, and local travel guides that are listed.


But...Just like that wall in the Everglades...there is that possibility of the "grain of truth".....


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