Pirate Treasure-Trying to get a permit to dig up

[Bigdogdad]

BTW, the opinion of 15 dowsers carry little weight. But i have always supported your efforts so good luck. You have no lack of enthusiasm.

BTW, the opinion of VOR carries even less weight. Do you think you are some sort of expert in this? You have made it very clear numerous times that you do not believe in dowsing. Your beliefs do not matter here. You are certainly welcome to voice your opinion but you are wasting your gigabytes.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Cry Of The Eagle: History And Legends Of The Cherokee Indians And Their Buried Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[vor]

Actually quite a bit. I have watched palms grow for 50 years.

I'm with you on this one. Know this target almost killed you awhile back.

 

[vor]

Our replies crossed in cyberspace.

No expert here but I do walk with eyes wide open.

This has not gone well with you in the past, hence wishing you better luck this time.

Mind if i post palm and previous dig photos?

 

[Bigdogdad]

Our replies crossed in cyberspace. No expert here but I do walk with eyes wide open. This has not gone well with you in the past, hence wishing you better luck this time. Mind if i post palm and previous dig photos?

Go ahead. Just the pics from Englewood.

 

[Slim_Pickins]

Glad you seen the light. Always keep in mind this. A man will not look twice at a quarter, Drop a gold bar in front of em and he will stare at it for hours.

 

[Green Mtn'eer]

BTW, the opinion of VOR carries even less weight. Do you think you are some sort of expert in this? You have made it very clear numerous times that you do not believe in dowsing. Your beliefs do not matter here. You are certainly welcome to voice your opinion but you are wasting your gigabytes.

BDD...the way I see it is VOR's (and anyone else's) beliefs and opinions matter just as much as yours. Obviously you feel otherwise. Or is it because he has stated beliefs numerous times? Unlike you of course. VOR stated an opinion, well shared at that, that was neither personal or attacking, and in the same sentence even supported you...twice...yet you attack him in response? And you wonder why people come at you? I have followed this thread since the beginning and have rooted for you, as well as felt for you, regardless of my opinion of dowsing or anything else, but man its that kind of thing that makes me rethink.

 

[Bigdogdad]

BDD...the way I see it is VOR's (and anyone else's) beliefs and opinions matter just as much as yours. Obviously you feel otherwise. Or is it because he has stated beliefs numerous times? Unlike you of course. VOR stated an opinion, well shared at that, that was neither personal or attacking, and in the same sentence even supported you...twice...yet you attack him in response? And you wonder why people come at you? I have followed this thread since the beginning and have rooted for you, as well as felt for you, regardless of my opinion of dowsing or anything else, but man its that kind of thing that makes me rethink.

My response to vor's post about opinions may sound harsh to you. He and I have completely different opinions about the merits or lack of merit when it comes to any and all things dowsing. He stated that the opinion of 15 different people carried little weight and I came back with the reply that I felt his opinion carried less than these 15. I then asked if he thought he was some sort of expert in dowsing (which he is not). He has stated many times on different threads and other communication with me that he does not believe in dowsing. He is certainly welcome to post on any thread as he sees fit.

On the other hand after hearing over a period of more than two years his apparent total disdain for any and all things dowsing, I really don't care what he believes. As I stated in the post you quoted, he is welcome to voice his opinion, but to just blow off the opinion of 15 other people I have met involving this site just because he chooses not to believe anything they say, well, that rubs me the wrong way.

As far as your statement that I "wonder why people come at you". No I don't wonder why people come at me. The fact is I like a good argument and welcome your thoughts as well as anyone else's. vor and I are big boys and can stand the heat. It is admirable that you choose to stick up for him. If my being harsh with someone cause you to rethink, well so be it.

 

[NEPADIGGER7]

My hats off to ya...permit or no permit lol

 

[vor]

correction

vor's post...... his apparent total disdain for any and all things dowsing...

I have no disdain for dowsing. In fact, I find it somewhat amusing and entertaining.

What better way to enjoy an afternoon than to watch grown men walk in circles with rods or swinging pendulums.

V

 

[Green Mtn'eer]

... It is admirable that you choose to stick up for him. If my being harsh with someone cause you to rethink, well so be it.

BDD: my comments had nothing to do with VOR whatsoever...I highly doubt he needs anyone to stick up for him...and I'm guessing clarifying would be pointless

 

[Bigdogdad]

BDD: my comments had nothing to do with VOR whatsoever...I highly doubt he needs anyone to stick up for him...and I'm guessing clarifying would be pointless

I reread everything vor and I said regarding your comments about my posts. The point was to clarify things for myself. Although you say your comments had nothing to do with vor, your comments say otherwise. The subject was about dowsing in relation to the Englewood site. vor has made it very clear that although he may be amused and entertained by circling dowsers, he does not believe dowsing can work in any meaningful way. That is his opinion.

To clarify, I came back with my opinion that as far as to whether vor believes in any of the 15 separate dowsers that met me at the Englewood site, what he feels about what they said means nothing to me. His opinion on this carries virtually NO WEIGHT.

Now if you or anyone else reading this agree with vor's complete lack of belief in the merits of dowsing, that's your call. If you all want to try to convince others to agree with you, I cannot stop you. Go for it. But this is not the dowsing forum. I will say this about dowsing. If you have been told it doesn't work and have never seen it work, you may decide to believe it doesn't work. Now if you have been told it works, and then have seen it work, you may decide to believe in dowsing. I would guess that vor has never seen it work.

Finding or not finding treasure is not really a good way to decide whether it works anymore than going out and buying a metal detector and then expecting to find treasure just because metal detectors find metal. Finding gold is not that easy. Dowsing is a tool that you have to learn how to use. I am working on it.

 

[Snipes]

After several long days of reading the 58 pages of comments I finally get to comment!

Firstly, I want to state that my contrary opinion to OP is not personal! I have enjoyed this thread and appreciate anyone who wants to put shovel to dirt. I also understand the fact that recorded history and common conceptions on things are often wrong... being a treasure hunter is based on this belief. I can also appreciate how hard it is to be disbelieved, interrogated and often mocked especially online. It can create a defensiveness is that is fully justifiable and not beneficial to anyone. I applaud to OP for his tenacity and willingness to take heat.

With these things being said here is my opinion on a few things:

(1) I think when you claim to know, or think, that a treasure exists somewhere it is your burden of truth. IF it is posted on TN you will have some requirements to explain your position and provide rebuttals. You can say that you don't have to convince anyone - which is true - but then the whole exercise seems a little pointless.

(2) People have mocked the dowsing and LRLs (?). I don't know alot about either of those things. I knew a dowser. HE was crazy. He did it in front of me and found a spot that later became his well. So it is what it is. In fairness, he could probably have dug a random spot and hit water but nonetheless he did what he did and I witnessed it. People saying there should be collaborating evidence are making a reasonable request however. Which according to you you have collaborated.

(3) Documented Pirate Camp. As ECS stated where is the documentation. I'm not saying you need to have a written record. But if you say documented you need documentation. I know you have heard the stories live in the area etc. I have similar stories where I am to. Undocumented and I have pursued them because I believe there was a hideway there. BUT that makes the site undocumented. I have seen a few articles but never anything really talking about this site being a pirate camp for 300 years. The point? Its still very circumstantial evidence.

(4) The tone of this post has trained so drastically it has left me feeling a little cheated. In the beginning it was that there was treasure there and we need permits. There was claims of alot of evidence not being posted here (makes sense). Overtime it seems the argument has shifted to "Well you can't say there is not treasure there until you dig!" which although true seems problematic. I live on an island that has easily a 300 year history of pirates. Well documented relatively speaking. There is known documented treasure they stole ad documentation (including their old houses currently being museums). I know literally a hundred places where local lore says treasure exists and and some of them have produced very interesting results on intial testing. To think there is treasure in even one of these places is probably very very optimistic. I am a metal detectorist. You know how much anomalous signals that are incorrect? Most of them. So it seems the dowser is the only thing that makes this spot stand out. Which refers us back to the issue of needing to corroborate his evidence. Otherwise, this site to me is like a thousand I've seen. Interesting but far from worth getting a permit on.

Here I will get slightly personal, my apologies not an attack but rather an observation. Is it reasonable to think that this has largely all been promotion for an ebook? I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this just thats how it feels. As an amatuer treasure hunter the first thing that hit me about this thread was "You'll never get a permit". I assume any other treasure hunter would also know this immediately. So to pursue the permit by claiming pirate treasure etc. would seem the worst possible approach in a otherwise impossible task to begin with. So am I am saying you're naive or dumb? NO. I think you are smart and probably a good salesman in real life. SO why search the one that requires a permit on gov land? Especially when you have somany spots? Proximity? I don't think so. By nature of the permit its just as well the site was in china. You pick it because it allows the most chance for promotion (TN, Tv, newspaper) with the least chance of being discredited (permits never issued). I can even see the last 3 mins of the 44 min documentary. It involves you standing on the spot saying the treasure is right underneath. A kings ransom in silver. But the gov won't let us dig. Why?
You could even make a claim for conspiracy. Great documentary has everything it needs.
I think this marketing plan etc is brilliant and you should be commended. But it really feels to me (a guy with no horse in the race) thats what this is. So far its worked.

Good luck, I hope you find what you are looking for either there or at one of you other sites. Cheers

 

[vor]

Snipes
Good post and I will have to agree with you except as to your theory of motive. Maybe it is just naivety but I think BDD was sincere in his original posts (though it would show naivety on his part about how the system works).
As things progress BDD just gets more defensive about his beliefs and feels compelled to respond to ever assertion that goes against them.
But it does seem like BDD doesn't want the truth exposed or he would have at least cored his "spot". Early on in the thread he could have even had a number of his followers volunteer to do the dirty work. Contrary to his remarks, the state would never waste their resources in prosecuting someone who drilled a few holes and cleaned up their core spoils when they left (as evidenced by the backhoe incident where the diggers are known and were reported).
But then the story would be over. Can't let that happen.
V

 

[ECS]

...
As things progress BDD just gets more defensive about his beliefs and feels compelled to respond to ever assertion that goes against them.
But it does seem like BDD doesn't want the truth exposed or he would have at least cored his "spot"...
But then the story would be over..

...or concede that Ovid's dowsing may not have been as accurate as believed.

 

[Bigdogdad]

After several long days of reading the 58 pages of comments I finally get to comment! Firstly, I want to state that my contrary opinion to OP is not personal! I have enjoyed this thread and appreciate anyone who wants to put shovel to dirt. I also understand the fact that recorded history and common conceptions on things are often wrong... being a treasure hunter is based on this belief. I can also appreciate how hard it is to be disbelieved, interrogated and often mocked especially online. It can create a defensiveness is that is fully justifiable and not beneficial to anyone. I applaud to OP for his tenacity and willingness to take heat. With these things being said here is my opinion on a few things: (1) I think when you claim to know, or think, that a treasure exists somewhere it is your burden of truth. IF it is posted on TN you will have some requirements to explain your position and provide rebuttals. You can say that you don't have to convince anyone - which is true - but then the whole exercise seems a little pointless. (2) People have mocked the dowsing and LRLs (?). I don't know alot about either of those things. I knew a dowser. HE was crazy. He did it in front of me and found a spot that later became his well. So it is what it is. In fairness, he could probably have dug a random spot and hit water but nonetheless he did what he did and I witnessed it. People saying there should be collaborating evidence are making a reasonable request however. Which according to you you have collaborated. (3) Documented Pirate Camp. As ECS stated where is the documentation. I'm not saying you need to have a written record. But if you say documented you need documentation. I know you have heard the stories live in the area etc. I have similar stories where I am to. Undocumented and I have pursued them because I believe there was a hideway there. BUT that makes the site undocumented. I have seen a few articles but never anything really talking about this site being a pirate camp for 300 years. The point? Its still very circumstantial evidence. (4) The tone of this post has trained so drastically it has left me feeling a little cheated. In the beginning it was that there was treasure there and we need permits. There was claims of alot of evidence not being posted here (makes sense). Overtime it seems the argument has shifted to "Well you can't say there is not treasure there until you dig!" which although true seems problematic. I live on an island that has easily a 300 year history of pirates. Well documented relatively speaking. There is known documented treasure they stole ad documentation (including their old houses currently being museums). I know literally a hundred places where local lore says treasure exists and and some of them have produced very interesting results on intial testing. To think there is treasure in even one of these places is probably very very optimistic. I am a metal detectorist. You know how much anomalous signals that are incorrect? Most of them. So it seems the dowser is the only thing that makes this spot stand out. Which refers us back to the issue of needing to corroborate his evidence. Otherwise, this site to me is like a thousand I've seen. Interesting but far from worth getting a permit on. Here I will get slightly personal, my apologies not an attack but rather an observation. Is it reasonable to think that this has largely all been promotion for an ebook? I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this just thats how it feels. As an amatuer treasure hunter the first thing that hit me about this thread was "You'll never get a permit". I assume any other treasure hunter would also know this immediately. So to pursue the permit by claiming pirate treasure etc. would seem the worst possible approach in a otherwise impossible task to begin with. So am I am saying you're naive or dumb? NO. I think you are smart and probably a good salesman in real life. SO why search the one that requires a permit on gov land? Especially when you have somany spots? Proximity? I don't think so. By nature of the permit its just as well the site was in china. You pick it because it allows the most chance for promotion (TN, Tv, newspaper) with the least chance of being discredited (permits never issued). I can even see the last 3 mins of the 44 min documentary. It involves you standing on the spot saying the treasure is right underneath. A kings ransom in silver. But the gov won't let us dig. Why? You could even make a claim for conspiracy. Great documentary has everything it needs. I think this marketing plan etc is brilliant and you should be commended. But it really feels to me (a guy with no horse in the race) thats what this is. So far its worked. Good luck, I hope you find what you are looking for either there or at one of you other sites. Cheers

I will try to reply to each point.
1. Although there is no requirement on here to have to prove or justify anything, I have never shied away from any and all questions or comments. I have tried to answer anything that was asked of me. As far as proving a treasures existence, there is only one way to do that and that is to dig it up.

2. After having spent hundreds if not thousands of hours over the last 27 years meeting with, interviewing, watching, working with many dowsers, I have a pretty good idea what I think about it all. Like everything else, it is not 100% or even close. It is just one of many methods that can be used to possibly find things. I am 100% convinced that it can work. I am also 100% convinced metal detectors work. I haven't found the big treasure yet with either.

3. What kind of documentation do you think exists to prove a pirate camp was actually a pirate camp. Pictures? Diaries? There are numerous stories in books and newspapers about Rocky Bluff. Some but not all have been mentioned on this thread. Go to Rocky Bluff. Right near the site is a sign with a pirate. People that have grown up in this area and have parents or grandparents that have all grown up here will confirm the history of the area. As far as me having to provide documentation about Rocky Bluff, I am not required to provide anything on this thread just to appease the doubters. The truth is I don't really care what a lot of people believe. Circumstantial evidence? If that's the way you see it, fine. When I went to the highway department to try to get a permit there was nothing asked or brought up by them as to me having to prove anything about the history of Rocky Bluff. They are the ones that issue permits to dig, not treasurenet members.

4. According to you your opinion is that from what you have read on this thread, it is not worth the trouble to try to get a permit on. I am the one that tried to get the permit. I am the one that thinks it is worth the time. It is my problem. You are not required to believe any of it.

No this is not a promotion for an e-book. Period. I did not set out to go after this site. I inadvertently showed some guys where it was and they wanted to just start digging. I had been to the state highway department years earlier and told them about possible pirate treasure. They were very receptive to giving me a permit to dig. I wasn't being naïve when I went there two years ago to talk to them again. There was a change in command and the new head said no. Your implying that the whole thing was a publicity stunt is not completely accurate. I have been known to dig for treasure when no one is looking.

I am involved in other sites. I am tired of talking about Rocky Bluff.

 

[Bigdogdad]

Snipes Good post and I will have to agree with you except as to your theory of motive. Maybe it is just naivety but I think BDD was sincere in his original posts (though it would show naivety on his part about how the system works). As things progress BDD just gets more defensive about his beliefs and feels compelled to respond to ever assertion that goes against them. But it does seem like BDD doesn't want the truth exposed or he would have at least cored his "spot". Early on in the thread he could have even had a number of his followers volunteer to do the dirty work. Contrary to his remarks, the state would never waste their resources in prosecuting someone who drilled a few holes and cleaned up their core spoils when they left (as evidenced by the backhoe incident where the diggers are known and were reported). But then the story would be over. Can't let that happen. V

vor- Defensive? Me? Naw! Hey why don't you take your core drill, start it up and then try sitting on it. When I applied for the permit, I asked, in writing, about drilling, detecting, GPR's and more. They said NO, in writing. They also warned me not to do it, so I didn't. I don't want the truth exposed? Really? Is that what you believe? Why do you think I dig so many holes at so many places? For fun? I am done. Stick a shovel in me.

 

[vor]

Thanks for the suggestion.....but I think I'll pass.

 

[kimosarbe]

Just get some night vision glasses and go get it , then find it some where else.

 

[Snipes]

Alot of valid points BDD. I sincerely do hope you find a treasure somewhere. That would be awesome. Not as awesome as me finding treasure somewhere, but cool none the less. Good luck

 

[Green Mtn'eer]

vor- Defensive? Me? Naw! Hey why don't you take your core drill, start it up and then try sitting on it...

THAT is precisely my point. My comments were regarding your manner and quite specifically, treating people with disdain and disgust...even the ones that support you! To echo a point, you claim to welcome debate yet when someone disagrees you attack, demean, and in general turn adolescent. I was one of those supporters regardless of my beliefs in dowsing, permit politics, or anything else...but no longer. There is a point where patterns of behavior reveal one's true character and motivations.