Odyssey treasure will go to Spain!

[Devonshire]

If this ship was in Spanish territorial waters then Spanish maritime law would apply. If it was in international waters then admiralty law would apply and salvor's rights would apply. unesco does not take precedence over salvor's right's or admiralty law, unless it is Spanish law that applies. If Spanish law applies then the salvor is finished. If admiralty law applies he needs to bring the treasure to a foundry and have it melted into ingots and sold.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A Handbook of Civil War Bullets and Cartridges - Grab it through Amazon!

[AUVnav]

Admiralty Law, nor the Law of Finds, were never set up with shipwrecks in mind, but for other ships to render aid to vessels in distress, without liability, and with a mechanism for reward for that aid.

The Law of Finds was simply for items found on beaches or floating, for a entity finding the cargo, to have a mechanism for a reward for the recovery. Before this, the owners would typically just go and take the items back. Currently, the Law of Finds requires for a finder to bring the recovery physically into the Courts possession, turn the recovery over to the Court for disposition, and the Court administrates the claims against the recovery. It is relevant to understand that the Law of Finds specifically is set up to administrate a fee to the salvor for the recovery, not the recovery itself, so technically, the recovery is actually the property of the Court. The owner has the option to pay the fee with the recovery, but this is not automatic. Historically, the Admiralty Court auctioned off the recovery, and the finder was paid from the proceeds of the auction, and that mechanism is still in place.

The laws of sovereignty apply worldwide, with many laws such as UNCLOS governing the International waters and charter States. I cannot see how any member State, including the Bahamas, which is still part of the Commonwealth, ignore sovereignty and comity.

What is very interesting is under the Admiralty Law, and Law of Finds, only what is physically in the Courts jurisdiction, or brought into the Courts possession, can be administrated by that Court. Hence an Admiralty Arrest in International waters has little or no value, and currently, little means or avenue of enforcement.

 

[john f. johnson]

someone is missing the point on this. sure it was a spanish ship it did have the gold and silver on board when it sank. but digging a little deeper in to the mess. you would have found out that the ship was insured by lloyds of lundon and a payout was made. oh how about the people who were used to get ther gold and silver in brazil?

 

[AUVnav]

(CN) - A marine explorer who improperly claimed a $600-million treasure from a sunken Spanish warship must pay $1 million in fees and costs to Spain, a federal judge ruled.
U.S. District Judge Steven Merryday in Tampa, Fla. entered the judgment in the 6-year long litigation Wednesday, finding that the company had acted in bad faith and had prolonged the dispute unnecessarily.
In 2007, Florida-based Odyssey Marine Exploration, a world leader in deep ocean exploration and recovery, discovered 595,000 coins, 17 cannons and a number of other small artifacts on the seabed about 100 miles west of the Straights of Gibraltar.
Odyssey claimed that the 17-ton treasure, estimated at $600 million, could not be traced back to any particular ship, despite knowing that it was most likely exploring the shipwreck site of a Spanish Royal Navy frigate, according to court filings.
Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes sank in 1804 en route from Peru to Cadiz, Spain after being attacked by the British Royal Navy in what was later called the Battle of Cape Saint Mary.
Odyssey dubbed its 2007 discovery the Black Swan, and asked the federal court in Tampa, Fla., for custody of the recovered artifacts.
But Spain claimed the treasure Odyssey found was from the Spanish warship Mercedes, and asked the court to dismiss Odyssey's action and order it to return the salvaged cargo.
It argued Odyssey's claim was barred under the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (FSIA), which provides that Spain's property is subject to sovereign immunity from all claims or arrest in the United States.
The federal court in December 2009 ordered Odyssey to return the treasure to Spain under the United States' 1902 Treaty of Friendship with the nation.
The 11th Circuit affirmed in 2011, agreeing that Odyssey had improperly seized the treasure from the Mercedes.
After successfully contesting Odyssey's claim, Spain asked for reimbursement of attorney's fees and costs. It claimed that Odyssey had known from the beginning that the wrecked vessel was Mercedes, but it nevertheless denied the existence and the identity of the ship and withheld evidence that could have established its identity.
Odyssey continued to resist federal and magistrate judges' orders even after it lost its bid to the treasure, Spain claimed in its motion.
A magistrate judge had awarded Spain $158,102 in legal fees, but had denied its request for costs, finding that it lacked precision.
But Merryday disagreed with part of the decision, and upped the award to $1,072,979.
"This action presented from the outset not merely the dicey prospects of a damages action; this action presented a claim to ownership by a party holding-in-hand an enormous, historic trove of treasure, holding-in-hand riches 'beyond the dreams of avarice,'" Merryday wrote in the Sept. 25 order. "A contest for $600 million - winner take all - is plenty sufficient to endanger any boundary, to awaken any frailty, and to excite any temptation."
The judge noted that Odyssey's conduct from the outset warranted sanctions, because the company had recovered the treasure and removed it to central Florida without authorization.
Odyssey had asked Spain for permission to explore the sector of the ocean where the treasure was found, and went ahead even after Spain declined to participate or authorize exploration, according to the order.
Merryday disagreed with the magistrate judge's decision to limit sanctions to Odyssey's refusal to comply with court orders after Spain succeeded on its claim.
"In litigation, neither the meritless, nor the false, nor the frivolous, nor the vexatious should progress in safety and for free," Merryday wrote.
Despite its knowledge, expertise and resources, Odyssey denied possessing evidence that would have confirmed the existence of a ship at the site, or its identity, and refused to comply with disclosure orders, according to the ruling.
Odyssey knew that Mercedes was a Spanish warship that carried a huge cargo of silver specie from Peru to Spain to assist Spain's war effort. Nevertheless, the company characterized Mercedes as a ship that primarily transported mail, private passengers and merchant goods, according to the order.
While Mercedes did carry some mail, the civilian family of a Spanish officer and their belongings, it was, as Odyssey knew, a military ship with a naval crew and an enormous cargo of silver on board. Odyssey's attempt to stretch the truth was bad faith conduct that cannot escape sanctions, Merryday concluded.
"Odyssey went where it went because it knew full well where to go," Merryday wrote. "Odyssey found what it found because it knew full well what it was looking for; Odyssey withheld and deceived and deflected with respect to what it found because Odyssey knew full well why Spain was asking and knew full well the adverse consequence to Odyssey's financial aspirations if Spain discovered the answer. To come to court and deny the truth of these facts is, as stated earlier, an unacceptable enormity propounded and maintained in bad faith and for an improper purpose."
The sanctions should be based on Odyssey's "campaign of obstruction and feigned ignorance and doubt" throughout the litigation, the order states.
Had Odyssey admitted and announced the identity of the wrecked ship from the beginning, most of the litigation could have been avoided, according to the ruling.
Merryday said it was impossible to determine what part of the action would have been avoided, but concluded that two-thirds of it arose from Odyssey's bad faith.
The judge declined to sanction Melinda MacConnel, Odyssey's executive vice president and general counsel, personally, finding that the award against Odyssey was large enough to address her misconduct.
MacConnel previously apologized for telling the media that "clearly, the political influences in this case overshadowed the law," according to a footnote in the order.
Odyssey, which features a market capitalization around $240 million, and $10.1 million in cash as of March 2013, should be able to pay the award, the ruling states.
And although Spain's expenditures might have warranted it, a larger award would have been unreasonable, Merryday concluded.
Odyssey said it was considering an appeal.
"Although the award is only one-third of the amount requested by Spain, it's disappointing that the court was apparently swayed by statements presented by Spain's witnesses during the merits portion of the case that we believe could have been proven false during cross examination of those witnesses in a trial," Odyssey CEO Greg Stemm said in a press release.
"The court's findings do provide guidance in establishing considerations for dealing with shipwrecks in international waters in the future," Stemm added. "Odyssey's business requires us to work in geographical and legal areas without clear legal precedents and there were bound to be circumstances where lack of precedent could lead to adverse rulings. What is important is that we incorporate those lessons into future projects, which is what we have done. We are working cooperatively with other governments around the world and our recent successes have shown that this case was an aberration that will not have an adverse effect on the company's strategic plan going forward."

Courthouse News Service

 

[VOC]

Still now that Spain is a third world country they can do with the cash. (OME can probably offset this as a charity donation).

 

[Salvor6]

VOC Spain is not selling the coins. They are not smart enough. They just announced that the coins, whats left of them, are going on display in museums across the country. The crooked politicians got the rest. OME just wrote this off as a bump in the road. Did you hear they (OME) recovered 110 tons of silver bars from the Garissopa? A vessel that Spain claimed as theirs when OME announced it's discovery.

 

[ropesfish]

IMHO-like most Federal employees, Federal judges are often instructed as to how to rule on cases that the Executive Branch deems in their interest. What they have done is establish a precedent to the effect that - if there is any chance whatsoever that Spain can claim what you spend your blood and treasure to salvage, either sail away and never mention it again or run up the pirate flag and do as you feel you must. They'll be unlikely to ever get another nickel from Odyssey or those like 'em.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

"Nevertheless, the company characterized Mercedes as a ship that primarily transported mail, private passengers and merchant goods, according to the order.
While Mercedes did carry some mail, the civilian family of a Spanish officer and their belongings, it was, as Odyssey knew, a military ship with a naval crew and an enormous cargo of silver on board. Odyssey's attempt to stretch the truth was bad faith conduct that cannot escape sanctions, Merryday concluded."

It really doesn't matter how much mail or how many civilians and private citizens "belongings" the Mercedes carries. Just one of any of those is enough to make it not a sole military vessel. If this ship would have been a US ship it would have been illegally carrying private cargo and the Master of the vessel would have been subject to court- martial according to US law.

Melinda MacConnel never should have apologized!

The Abandoned Shipwrecks Act flied in the face of established law and this case flied in the face of established law.

I would like to note that if this IS good enough for the States of the United States and the Federal Govt then it should be good enough for OME to claim ownership.

"Section 2 provides Congressional findings regarding state juris-
diction over submerged lands which should include abandoned
shipwrecks. The Committee notes that the term "abandoned" does
not require the original owner to actively disclaim title or owner-
ship. The abandonment or relinquishment of ownership rights may
be implied or otherwise inferred, as by an owner never asserting
any control over or otherwise indicating his claim of possession of
the shipwreck."

 

[Darren in NC]

If Odyssey had not been so eager to whisk the coins back to America, they could have landed them easily in the UK with the Receiver of Wreck. Protocol is that that the Receiver of Wreck holds the cargo until an owner arrives and PROVES BEYOND A SHADOW OF DOUBT that they are the rightful owner. Even so, they would have to award the salvor a generous fee. Spain would have had a hard time with absolute proof. And Odyssey would be in a much better position.

 

[AUVnav]

Darren, The Court has the exact location of the wreck in sealed documents. Reading the Court document, it states that Odyssey asked Spain for permission to search in that area and was denied. That can only mean one thing.
Taking it to the Receiver of Wreck would not have made any difference in the outcome.

 

[DixieLandMan]

I hope they ship it back by sea and it gets dumped in the deepest part of the ocean.

 

[huntsman53]

I hope they ship it back by sea and it gets dumped in the deepest part of the ocean.

Yeah, OME should have met them over the Puerto Rico Trench to do a ship to ship transfer and when the cables broke during the transfer, state to Spain, well we made the transfer in good faith but at least you know where to find the coins! Then if Spain really wanted to pursue the recovery of the coins, they would probably have to hire OME (who would have to insure on an ironclad contract with Spain) as they are about the only company out there that can do such deep ocean recoveries.


Frank

 

[ropesfish]

Huntsman53 said: "they would probably have to hire OME (who would have to insure on an ironclad contract with Spain) as they are about the only company out there that can do such deep ocean recoveries."
Nope. Odyssey is the only company with the capability to work in 15,000 feet of water that chooses to do something as risky as treasure salvage. I am still amazed that there is someone that is such a good salesman that he/she/they can get investors to back projects like deep ocean treasure salvage. We don't have much of a space program anymore. I am glad Odyssey is out there doing something interesting
Oceaneering is the biggest player in deepwater operations, but there are a few others. Oceaneering was the main contractor when NUMA and company raised the C.L.Hunley from it's resting place in Charleston Harbor.(Friends of the Hunley) That particular job was not too deep, but presented some interesting challenges. They all do work mainly for oil/gas/mining interests that sign a contract and pay their fees, but I know a guy if someone wants to hire them...

 

[VOC]

AUVnav

Good to see you back posting.

You say Odyssey asked Spain for permission to search in that area and was denied.

Was the wreck not in international waters so, how could they have denied anyone permission to search ? Not even sure it fell in Spanish 200m economic zone, as I thought I read it was more of the Portuguese coast.

Not sure exactly where it was.

OME should be applauded for putting them through the legal system as they could have easily been landed in a African country and sold to the highest bidder

VOC

 

[AUVnav]

Odyssey is the only company with the capability to work in 15,000 feet of water that chooses to do something as risky as treasure salvage.

Actually, Odyssey had to hire a different company, Swire Seabed to do the recovery, so in fact, Odyssey has no capability at that depth.

VOC...well, yes, I am back posting. The Court document speaks for itself. The Court had the location under sealed documents. The Court specifically noted that Odyssey asked to search IN THAT area, and was denied.

"Odyssey had asked Spain for permission to explore the sector of the ocean where the treasure was found, and went ahead even after Spain declined to participate or authorize exploration, according to the order."

Odyssey would not have to ask Spain for permission to search in International waters.

OME should be applauded for putting them through the legal system as they could have easily been landed in a African country and sold to the highest bidder

stealing is still stealing, without providance, its just scrap silver anyways...

edit: remember the mosaic? by accident there was the Red Sculpin shown over the stack of silver? What is the max depth they are found?

 

[Darren in NC]

Darren, The Court has the exact location of the wreck in sealed documents. Reading the Court document, it states that Odyssey asked Spain for permission to search in that area and was denied. That can only mean one thing.
Taking it to the Receiver of Wreck would not have made any difference in the outcome.

Like VOC, I thought it was international waters as well, so it would still have applied in that case. I'm not sure what all the smoke and mirrors are about - either it was or wasn't. If it was, Spain has no right regardless of the politically motivated court case. If it wasn't, then Odyssey was in the wrong. Simple as that.

 

[VOC]

Just did a Google search and most results say it was recovered off Portugal.

If they recovered it from Spanish territorial waters, some serious questions should be asked about the Spanish authorities why they did not intercept the OME vessel (they did not do this in a few hours).

And like we have said if it was not in Spanish territorial waters then OME did not need permission from Spain.

It does not matter what it says in the court papers about Spain not giving permission if OME did not need it.

I heard that OME asked Spain if they wanted to be involved with the search and they eventually said No, that is not the same as having the rights to deny permission.

VOC

 

[Jason in Enid]

Yes, but if you watched the documentaries of one of their seasons, you can see very clearly, hostile actions of foreign countries in international waters. Without making the site coords public knowledge, we will never know for certain if OME was innocent, or if the Obama administration orchestrated the forced handover (which was shown in the wikileaks documents)

 

[AUVnav]

Aside from the press, the Courts ruling was specific, and the Court had the actual data, not what has been reported by Odyssy in the press.
Odyssey sought permission from the Spanish to search, which only means one thing. Odyssey was required to return the recover and pay a $1 million dollar penalty.
As I noted , the Red Sculpin was an issue. These fish are found at a max depth of 420 feet. This is far from the 1100 feet or 1000 meters as Odyssey has reported. (really, which is it?)

This 'story' by Odyssey has a foundation, with the HMS Sussex, where Odyssey has reported that the site was in international waters, but was required by Spain for permission to work the wreck, even though it is sovereign British.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

VOC You are a funny Man , Where do you live man ? Foggy England ? England national deb is 20 time's more than Spain
you can come to Australia and bend some bananas to get in the practice as England becomes a banana republic .