Odyssey treasure will go to Spain!

[old man]

Old Man, Huntsman suggests that Odyssey take the case to the World Court in the Hague, Netherlands, not the US Supreme Court.

Pete, I agree the case should have gone to the world court. Huntsman also blamed the Obama Administration, Knowledge of the recovery became public on May 18, 2007 when the company flew 17 tons[SUP][3][/SUP] of coins, mostly silver, from Gibraltar to a secure location of unknown address in Florida, USA. That was BEFORE OBAMA WAS PRESIDENT. I quote
( From the sounds of it and as many have eluded to, the Court decisions were orchestrated by the Obama Administration possibly to gain favor with Spain. ) Personally, as a Vet, I'm unhappy with all the politicians right now. Especially the Tea Party NUTS. I just had a ruined vacation because of a planned trip before the shutdown and when I got off the plane the National Parks were closed. Which in itself is nothing compared to all the people not getting a paycheck and the VA offices that are closed to all the Vets that fought for this Country. Sorry for ranting.

 

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[AUVnav]

You people are kidding right?

The worst thing for Odyssey would have been for this to go to trial in any Court.
Can you imagine the crew testimony regarding the recovery?

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

You people are kidding right?

The worst thing for Odyssey would have been for this to go to trial in any Court.
Can you imagine the crew testimony regarding the recovery?

YES YOUR HONOR , WE WERE IN PORTUGUESE WATERS RAIDING A ROYAL SPANISH VESSEL WITH NO PERMISSION ! AAAARRR

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Ozzy I got the log book of Diego Alvear , then deputy chief of Spanish naval squadron , to be deposited in the family archive a copy of which I have notarized . Also researched in the archives of the Spanish Navy , where I found many nautical indications documents . Very important was the collaboration of a trawling fishing master of Portimao (southern Portugal). This Master drafted a map of wrecks from Cape St. Vincent to the Spanish border Guadiana river , reaching the depth of 1300 meters. I signed an agreement with him, but the map took from my home the police in 2006 in Operation orchestrated to promote Odysey (such as time and the facts proved ) .
To search jobs in Portugal I had a legal authorization of the Portuguese Navy .
With historical and nautical information and knowledge of fishing master began to search using magnetometer and side scan sonar found a target with obvious remains of wreck and cannons , but could not verify it visually , because the Italian company for the survey had a job in Italy and had to return to Portugal in November 1982. Earlier this month the Portuguese Navy “suspended " authorizations. We could never work again.


The importance of one or more currencies among those returned by Odyssey to Spain dated after 1804, would demonstrate that:

1) possibly the treasure does not come from the Mercedes;
2) possibly have recovered treasures of several shipwrecks.



Those in power in Spain in 2007 agreed that the recovered treasure was in international waters (or high sea) to get rid of responsibilities. The Mercedes is in Portuguese territorial waters, the rest is all lies.

Another strange fact is that the Ministry of Culture, in a first institutional arrangements, agreed (December 2005) to recover the remains of the Mercedes, and a senior official saying that "we would have filled many museums". Interestingly and coincidentally, in 2007 Odyssey recovered a treasure, and then was said to be of the Mercedes. Another intriguing fact is that I published my book with the chapter of the Mercedes in February 2007. My book was used in court in Tampa.

And more casual was that Odyssey recovered a treasure (officially) in May 2007.

Too many coincidences!
P. S. I never asked for $ 50,000 for information. Anyone who says is a liar

Thank You Claudio for your response.
My question is if OME knew it wasn't the Mercedes, why didn't they tell the world exactly were they found the treasure ??
Why didn't they recover the cannons and why did they not recover plates and other artifacts that would have confirmed beyond doubt the ships identity.
OME from start to finish were always hiding something, The way they flew the coins out from Gibraltar at night and falsified custom documents sends a
clear message .

 

[huntsman53]

Pete, I agree the case should have gone to the world court. Huntsman also blamed the Obama Administration, Knowledge of the recovery became public on May 18, 2007 when the company flew 17 tons[SUP][3][/SUP] of coins, mostly silver, from Gibraltar to a secure location of unknown address in Florida, USA. That was BEFORE OBAMA WAS PRESIDENT. I quote
( From the sounds of it and as many have eluded to, the Court decisions were orchestrated by the Obama Administration possibly to gain favor with Spain. ) Personally, as a Vet, I'm unhappy with all the politicians right now. Especially the Tea Party NUTS. I just had a ruined vacation because of a planned trip before the shutdown and when I got off the plane the National Parks were closed. Which in itself is nothing compared to all the people not getting a paycheck and the VA offices that are closed to all the Vets that fought for this Country. Sorry for ranting.

For your information, the court battles were played out mainly from 2009 through 2012 and Obama was clearly in office during this time. As has been stated, the case never made it to the U.S. Supreme Court and the decisions were not affected or manipulated by the Republicans. Also, the case and appeals were heard in U.S. federal court and by a panel from the United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit which clearly come under the pervue of the Judicial and Executive Branches of the Federal Government and answer to the United States Attorney General, the President and to a lesser extent, the State Department.


Frank

 

[VOC]

Thank You Claudio for your response.
My question is if OME knew it wasn't the Mercedes, why didn't they tell the world exactly were they found the treasure ??
Why didn't they recover the cannons and why did they not recover plates and other artifacts that would have confirmed beyond doubt the ships identity.
OME from start to finish were always hiding something, The way they flew the coins out from Gibraltar at night and falsified custom documents sends a
clear message .

Hi Ossy

OME "always" said they had no evidence to prove if it was or was not the Mercedes

They saw no artefacts that would positively prove it was the Mercedes and did not want to interfere with any archaeological finds (like they do on most sites they have found) and Spain has not proved it either with the alleged artefacts still on site.

The time the plane takes off is a complete irrelevance to anything, as it would have taken time to unload the ship and all day to load the plane and everyone at a small airport would know what is going on and flight plans have to be filed in advance.

Falsifying custom documents is an offence in Gibraltar and OME have not been charged with that. (another Spanish rumour probably).

The clear message is OME played by all the International rules and two bankrupt and corrupt governments have stitched them up.

PS: How is Spain doing getting the rest of the stuff out of Gibraltar ?

 

[old man]

For your information, the court battles were played out mainly from 2009 through 2012 and Obama was clearly in office during this time. As has been stated, the case never made it to the U.S. Supreme Court and the decisions were not affected or manipulated by the Republicans. Also, the case and appeals were heard in U.S. federal court and by a panel from the United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit which clearly come under the pervue of the Judicial and Executive Branches of the Federal Government and answer to the United States Attorney General, the President and to a lesser extent, the State Department.


Frank

Huntsman for YOUR information. The US SUPREME COURT which is controlled by Conservative Republicans Refused to hear the Odyssey Appeal. The Republican Controlled Congress in the USA writes the laws in this Country, not the President of the USA.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0514/Who-gets-to-keep-shipwreck-treasure-Supreme-Court-

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Hi Ossy

OME "always" said they had no evidence to prove if it was or was not the Mercedes

They saw no artefacts that would positively prove it was the Mercedes and did not want to interfere with any archaeological finds (like they do on most sites they have found) and Spain has not proved it either with the alleged artefacts still on site.

The time the plane takes off is a complete irrelevance to anything, as it would have taken time to unload the ship and all day to load the plane and everyone at a small airport would know what is going on and flight plans have to be filed in advance.

Falsifying custom documents is an offence in Gibraltar and OME have not been charged with that. (another Spanish rumour probably).

The clear message is OME played by all the International rules and two bankrupt and corrupt governments have stitched them up.

PS: How is Spain doing getting the rest of the stuff out of Gibraltar ?

VOC " OME always said they had no evidence to prove if it was or was not the Mercedes " what a lot of bull !! They incriminated themselves when they showed the world on the discovery channel the video of the wreck
The ROV goes over dinner plates and other artifacts but they don't retrieve them and the cannons which they blow the sand away to have a look but don't touch them ??
Money laundering is an offense, and Gibraltar turns a blind eye , on line gambling with no tax ! Who's corrupt !!
OME only listed 3 million worth of goods leaving with no inspection and where the hell to you get tons and tons of coins ?? NO QUESTIONS ASKED I,m sure that idiot Picardo was involved .
Spain will never give up getting Gibraltar back, we can wait another 300 years if we have too.

 

[AUVnav]

From the recent Court rulings in the US, Odyssey was held in bad faith and refused court orders (Contempt) and is required to pay $1.1 million as a result.

They saw no artefacts that would positively prove it was the Mercedes and did not want to interfere with any archaeological finds

Really? Is that what you think? So they managed to vacuum up 17 tons or coins and artefacts, yet left the ones that would identify the wreck " because "did not want to interfere with any archaeological finds "

There are images of canon shown, which were specific to the Mercedes, yet Odyssey played dumb to the obvious?
Even though there were images of significant amounts of timber shown in the Court documents, Odyssey continued to deny it was a wreck, but simply argued it was cargo thrown over the side (yes, 17 tons thrown over the side in one spot)

Remember Stemm touting the identity of the wreck in the press?

The customs documents out of Gib are a matter of Court record. It appears obvious why there is no charge in Gib, they would have to admit to the Spanish they allowed an illegal export.

It is not a matter of rocket science to look at the export documents, the value placed by Odyssey on the recovery, nor the location and DEPTH shown on the documents.

The reason for the export was clear on the documents "subject to admiralty arrest". Note the date of the export, then note the date the arrest was filed. VOC, not difficult, even for someone like yourself.

 

[huntsman53]

Huntsman for YOUR information. The US SUPREME COURT which is controlled by Conservative Republicans Refused to hear the Odyssey Appeal. The Republican Controlled Congress in the USA writes the laws in this Country, not the President of the USA.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0514/Who-gets-to-keep-shipwreck-treasure-Supreme-Court-

old man... I do not wish to get into a political pi%$ing match (Republicans vs Democrats) but even your statement shows that the Republicans had nothing to do with the decision to hand over the coins to Spain! The U.S. Supreme Court clearly saw that the case was outside of their' pervue and jurisdiction and sent it back to the lower Courts. There were no Laws inacted in this case and if there were, these would have automatically triggered alarm bells to sound off. Since the decisions were made in the U.S. Federal Court and by a panel from the United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit, it only takes a request by the President, U.S. Attorney General or the State Department for these Courts to rule in favor of those they are told to rule in favor of! Political favoritism occurs in the Courts much more than we will ever know and especially more so in the City, County and State Courts than all others.

Please understand that while I lean towards the Republican Party, I hold no political affiliation with any Political Party and if the Republicans were to blame in this fiasco, then I would be on a different Band Wagon! It is sad that you are apparently so blinded by your rage of the Republicans that you cannot see nor understand that they were not responsible for the decisions to turn over the coins to Spain. Life is too short and too precious to hold grudges as they will eat at you from the inside out like a cancer!


Frank

 

[Vox veritas]

I have experienced firsthand the adventures of Odyssey in the Strait of Gibraltar since 1998.
I 'm accused in a court of Cadiz since 2006. Claudio Lozano (Spanish), the person who initiated the affair, curiously and coincidentally (and still more curiosities and coincidences ), he has the official address in Tampa (tax address), same address of Odyssey , 5215 West Laurel St.

Going back to 1998, when the appearance of Odyssey in Spain (Sotogrande Marina) is another curiosity and coincidence that begins the problem of SEA HUNT in U.S. with the Spanish frigate Juno and Galga . Now many treasure hunters in Florida may welcome the change. Now nothing can be done or touch.

One night in May 2007, a friend told me that in Gibraltar was charging a treasure in a plane.
I immediately called the journalist Santiago Mata, who did the photos where are loading the treasure on a plane in the famous plastic buckets.
In other words, thanks to my notice and journalist Santiago Mata was discovered the maneuver in Gibraltar. Apparently, previously was prepared to simulate a water discovery and recovery of Land's End, but the news in a newspaper of Spain (Gaceta de negocios) changed the plans.


And to continue with coincidences, the scam in Cadiz court, one of the arguments of the police complaint, was the signing of an agreement between SEA HUNT and Spanish Ministry of Culture to recover the remains and loads of Spanish frigate Juno and Galga as established by UNESCO. Yes, in June 2003 was signed this agreement . This was not supposed to like too much and was used as a weapon of accusation. Then could not prove anything!

And continue with the similarities and coincidences. A senior official of the Spanish Ministry of Culture, "not very fond of Odyssey " was accused of bribery in Cadiz court . It showed absolutely nothing! But this high official was a good time out of combat.

Another murky Odyssey performances are the declared values. For further and irrefutable details, have to read the book of Pipe Sarmiento “Expediente Odyssey”


Expediente Odyssey


The truth is that all actions of Odyssey Marine in Spain - Gibraltar are surrounded by mysteries, secrets, double plays, and contradictions.

 

[VOC]

I have experienced firsthand the adventures of Odyssey in the Strait of Gibraltar since 1998.
I 'm accused in a court of Cadiz since 2006. Claudio Lozano (Spanish), the person who initiated the affair, curiously and coincidentally (and still more curiosities and coincidences ), he has the official address in Tampa (tax address), same address of Odyssey , 5215 West Laurel St.

Going back to 1998, when the appearance of Odyssey in Spain (Sotogrande Marina) is another curiosity and coincidence that begins the problem of SEA HUNT in U.S. with the Spanish frigate Juno and Galga . Now many treasure hunters in Florida may welcome the change. Now nothing can be done or touch.

One night in May 2007, a friend told me that in Gibraltar was charging a treasure in a plane.
I immediately called the journalist Santiago Mata, who did the photos where are loading the treasure on a plane in the famous plastic buckets.
In other words, thanks to my notice and journalist Santiago Mata was discovered the maneuver in Gibraltar. Apparently, previously was prepared to simulate a water discovery and recovery of Land's End, but the news in a newspaper of Spain (Gaceta de negocios) changed the plans.

And to continue with coincidences, the scam in Cadiz court, one of the arguments of the police complaint, was the signing of an agreement between SEA HUNT and Spanish Ministry of Culture to recover the remains and loads of Spanish frigate Juno and Galga as established by UNESCO. Yes, in June 2003 was signed this agreement . This was not supposed to like too much and was used as a weapon of accusation. Then could not prove anything!

And continue with the similarities and coincidences. A senior official of the Spanish Ministry of Culture, "not very fond of Odyssey " was accused of bribery in Cadiz court . It showed absolutely nothing! But this high official was a good time out of combat.

Another murky Odyssey performances are the declared values. For further and irrefutable details, have to read the book of Pipe Sarmiento “Expediente Odyssey”

Expediente Odyssey

The truth is that all actions of Odyssey Marine in Spain - Gibraltar are surrounded by mysteries, secrets, double plays, and contradictions.

What a load of old nonsense.

Just because you did not know what was going on did not mean they were hiding something from any authorities.

All project of this type have an air of secrecy to stop others from plundering the wreck.

OME plaid by all the rules but were stitched up in the American Courts.

What other criminals do you know invite a TV company to make a documentary of their actions ?

What other criminals do you know steal something and then gives it to a court to decide who owns it ?

If OME were doing something wrong or wanted to steal the coins there would have been no TV crew onboard, no court case in the USA and the coins would have been landed in West Africa or some other lawless society.

AuvNav, OME were not held "in contempt of court" read the case,

Ossy, Gib is not breaking any international law by having no gambling tax, and Spain can try all they like to get it back but that will not happen as no other major country in the world will allow Spain to totally control the staights.

 

[Vox veritas]

VOC are not nonsense. Everything is neatly written in several documents. Legal documents of the court matter in Cadiz accuse. Spanish police itself stated in these documents that the authorizations to Odyssey (Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs) are irregular. In April 2007, the Spanish Culture Ministry flatly denied in a press release that had permits for Odyssey. Spanish Foreign Affairs always favored Odyssey. This is reflected in the official documents I mentioned of Spanish police.

 

[VOC]

VOC are not nonsense. Everything is neatly written in several documents. Legal documents of the court matter in Cadiz accuse. Spanish police itself stated in these documents that the authorizations to Odyssey (Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs) are irregular. In April 2007, the Spanish Culture Ministry flatly denied in a press release that had permits for Odyssey. Spanish Foreign Affairs always favored Odyssey. This is reflected in the official documents I mentioned of Spanish police.

Unfortunately I would not believe anything Police or government departments state in documents.

The main points are:

1. Were the coins recovered from a) Spanish territorial waters, b) Portuguese territorial waters c) International (High Seas) waters ?
2. Did OME require a permit from Spain to recover the coins if b) or c) above applies ?
3. Are OME within their rights to recover coins and then present them to a court to establish ownership ?
4. What "conclusive" evidence exist to prove that these coins definitely came of the Mercedes ?

Some people might dislike or envy what OME do for a living, but it does not mean that they operate outside of the law.

Just because it maybe a state owned vessel it does not mean a owner can prevent legitimate salvage if not in their waters, it is only that they can claim ownership of the recovered items once declared to a court, the UK has many Naval vessels being worked against their wishes but cannot do anything about it. http://www.divernet.com/home_diving_news/1072114/dutch_salvors_go_for_british_war_wrecks.html

Spain spent $2,227,000 USD on attorneys ($3.3m less the $1.073m that OME had to contribute), plus the cost of transport, plus cleaning, plus cataloguing, plus secure storage, Sounds a real good deal to the Spanish Tax payer to see a few clumps in a few museums, no wonder Spain is in a financial mess.

 

[old man]

For your information, the court battles were played out mainly from 2009 through 2012 and Obama was clearly in office during this time. As has been stated, the case never made it to the U.S. Supreme Court and the decisions were not affected or manipulated by the Republicans. Also, the case and appeals were heard in U.S. federal court and by a panel from the United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit which clearly come under the pervue of the Judicial and Executive Branches of the Federal Government and answer to the United States Attorney General, the President and to a lesser extent, the State Department.


Frank

Huntsman, I've got a great idea. Let's go Treasure Hunting. I have to agree with you about Odyssey and the World Court. I really would have liked to see how that would have played out. Personally, I am in favor of the war graves act about military ships However, I think that law should have been written about ships that were made out of metal and not wood. When a ship is made of wood and sits on the bottom for a few hundred years. There isn't much left of the wood in most cases and you usually don't find very many remains.

As far as politics, I was a Republican most of my life. Now I'm an Independent as I can't stand most of those idiots in Washington, Especially the Radicals on both sides. Hope you find a chest full of coins somewhere.

 

[Vox veritas]

Unfortunately I would not believe anything Police or government departments state in documents.

The main points are:

1. Were the coins recovered from a) Spanish territorial waters, b) Portuguese territorial waters c) International (High Seas) waters ?
2. Did OME require a permit from Spain to recover the coins if b) or c) above applies ?
3. Are OME within their rights to recover coins and then present them to a court to establish ownership ?
4. What "conclusive" evidence exist to prove that these coins definitely came of the Mercedes ?

Some people might dislike or envy what OME do for a living, but it does not mean that they operate outside of the law.

Just because it maybe a state owned vessel it does not mean a owner can prevent legitimate salvage if not in their waters, it is only that they can claim ownership of the recovered items once declared to a court, the UK has many Naval vessels being worked against their wishes but cannot do anything about it. Dutch salvors go for British war wrecks - Divernet

Spain spent $2,227,000 USD on attorneys ($3.3m less the $1.073m that OME had to contribute), plus the cost of transport, plus cleaning, plus cataloguing, plus secure storage, Sounds a real good deal to the Spanish Tax payer to see a few clumps in a few museums, no wonder Spain is in a financial mess.

VOC, the aforementioned documents are of various ministries and senior ministry officials. Apparently the only ones who did not lie were Odyssey boys.

 

[AUVnav]

Vox, is it possible you located the stern of the vessel, and the Odyssey recovery was from the bow?

What was the depth of your location?

Interesting to note from the Admirlty Arrest "Admiralty in rem action over a shipwrecked vessel lying at a depth of 1100 meters,"

If I remember correctly, both the customs doc and the experts from Odyssey were saying it was 1000 FEET.

This is odd as the Red Sculpin shown in the mosaic has a max depth of 100m.

 

[Silver Searcher]

Modern day pirates...robbing what's not there's backed by people with to much money to start with. It should be sunk, like the ships they plunder.

SS

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

What a load of old nonsense.

Just because you did not know what was going on did not mean they were hiding something from any authorities.

All project of this type have an air of secrecy to stop others from plundering the wreck.

OME plaid by all the rules but were stitched up in the American Courts.

What other criminals do you know invite a TV company to make a documentary of their actions ?

What other criminals do you know steal something and then gives it to a court to decide who owns it ?

If OME were doing something wrong or wanted to steal the coins there would have been no TV crew onboard, no court case in the USA and the coins would have been landed in West Africa or some other lawless society.

AuvNav, OME were not held "in contempt of court" read the case,

Ossy, Gib is not breaking any international law by having no gambling tax, and Spain can try all they like to get it back but that will not happen as no other major country in the world will allow Spain to totally control the staights.

How many country's are part of the United Nations ?? The United Nations and Decolonization - Committee of 24 - Non-Self-Governing Territories
The English are no longer needed in the Straights, The US defense fleet is now based in Rota ( Spain ) with state of the art missile systems.
Who's the Girl ? what is she saying to you

 

[VOC]

How many country's are part of the United Nations ?? The United Nations and Decolonization - Committee of 24 - Non-Self-Governing Territories
The English are no longer needed in the Straights, The US defense fleet is now based in Rota ( Spain ) with state of the art missile systems.
Who's the Girl ? what is she saying to you

It is not that the English are needed for security, if Spain gained Gib they with their Island on the African side would have territorial waters right across so could deny any vessel access through the straights.

I think she is talking Spanish as she would be using two hands if talking English !!!!!!