Oak Island the Strange, the Bizarre, and Maybe the "Truth!

[Tom_in_CA]

.... Were there unicorn tracks? Were there leprechaun villages? Honestly, no one can say either way. Can they?....

I will bet you dollars to donuts, that if someone were to make a Hollywood primetime docu-drama, that yes: Someone *would indeed* come up with purported unicorn tracks.

I mean, heck, look at how many "testimonials" are to-be-had when it comes to Loch ness? Or Elvis is still alive? Or UFO's? Or Magic pills that cure-all-ills? There is NO SHORTAGE of "tracks" (so-to-speak). Thus: So too will there by dizzying arrays of "out of places trees" and "odd coconut fibers" and "3 gold links", etc... that someone can point to (ie.: point-to-the-legend) @ O.I.

And even to-the-extent that some tidbit DOES get show-to-be-true (Eg.: trees, etc...), ok, but don't forget: All treasure legends are based on 99% fact. Real names, dates, events. Heck, in fact, I'll bet that if I scoured the 1 acre that I own in Monterey, CA, I could probably find an odd tree, a symmetrical "suspicious" design, a gold link, etc.....

.... To arbitrarily dismiss everything because it hasn't been proven yet is, at the very least, a disservice to yourself....

Ok then: On *your* view, you can not discount the possibility of a massive treasure on my 1 acre, in Monterey , CA. Once I've given you various clues. Right ?

Eg.: The suspicious vehicle I saw yesterday scouting the neighborhood (no doubt a govt. official up to no-good). And the suspicious uncanny designs I saw there (the round and perfectly square fence planks and paver-stones), that are ... no doubt .... a Templar clue. And the square nail I found in my own yard (despite that my house was blt. in 1956), etc..... And my house is a mere few miles from the 2nd oldest spot in alta CA (thus ... who's to say they didn't hike a few miles away to bury their Spanish/Jesuit treasure, right ?).

Yes, you would probably not concur there's necessarily a treasure here. But ... wait.... Then why can't the same doubt be said about O.I. ?

 

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[etex]

Could it be? Templars in Monterey?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Could it be? Templars in Monterey?

Yes. And as further clues: I kid you not: A fellow here, back in the 1970s, found a Roman coin from the AD 100's here. In a downtown Monterey demolition site. He wrote it off as nothing more than a returning soldier's souvenir , after one of the wars (we have various military installations here).

But ... no ... I'm certain it was evidence of Templars. And if I pegged a whole TV episode about it (complete with cliff-hanger commercial interruptions, and dramatic music, and archie-commentators), I could lead the casual viewer to the same conclusion. And then .... 150 yrs. from now, people on the future T'net would be making 91 page threads about the truth of it. The finder's name. Whether or not a city named "Monterey" existed. The dimensions and chemical makeup of the coin. The proximity and mileage from there, to my 1 acre yard. The sudden affluence and money I *suspiciously* came into, in the year 2011, etc.....

All of which will point to ... yes .... Templars in Monterey, CA. And the reason you can't find any written evidence of it , and the reason that the local officials deny knowledge of it, is ALL a part of the grand scheme and conspiracy to keep it hidden from public knowledge. Heck, they're doing a pretty good job at it, eh ?

 

[Robot]

Now I've Got Your Real Message!

Yes. And as further clues: I kid you not: A fellow here, back in the 1970s, found a Roman coin from the AD 100's here. In a downtown Monterey demolition site. He wrote it off as nothing more than a returning soldier's souvenir , after one of the wars (we have various military installations here).

But ... no ... I'm certain it was evidence of Templars. And if I pegged a whole TV episode about it (complete with cliff-hanger commercial interruptions, and dramatic music, and archie-commentators), I could lead the casual viewer to the same conclusion. And then .... 150 yrs. from now, people on the future T'net would be making 91 page threads about the truth of it. The finder's name. Whether or not a city named "Monterey" existed. The dimensions and chemical makeup of the coin. The proximity and mileage from there, to my 1 acre yard. The sudden affluence and monty I *suspiciously* came into, in the year 2011, etc.....

All of which will point to ... yes .... Templars in Monterey, CA. And the reason you can't find any written evidence of it , and the reason that the local officials deny knowledge of it, is ALL a part of the grand scheme and conspiracy to keep it hidden from public knowledge. Heck, they're doing a pretty good job at it, eh ?

You are the ...One...That Goes...On and On...For Several Pages...Without introducing Any Clues...To Help Solve the Mystery Of Oak Island!

Boy!...Talk About... The Pot Calling The Kettle Black!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

You are the ...One...That Goes...On and On...For Several Pages...Without introducing Any Clues...To Help Solve the Mystery Of Oak Island! ....

The trouble is: You (if I'm not mistaken) do not accept any inputs, that differ with anything else other than "treasure", as helping to "solve" it.

If we start with the given implicit premise that "There is a treasure", then yes. You'd be right: I am not "introducing any clues" to solve that.

But since when is that a given starting premise ? Why is it the burden of a skeptic doubter to prove it DOESN'T exist ? Isn't it the burden of proof of the claimants to prove it DOES exist ?

 

[Robot]

I Believe You Have Misinterpreted My Pretext!

The trouble is: You (if I'm not mistaken) do not accept any inputs, that differ with anything else other than "treasure", as helping to "solve" it.

If we start with the given implicit premise that "There is a treasure", then yes. You'd be right: I am not "introducing any clues" to solve that.

But since when is that a given starting premise ? Why is it the burden of a skeptic doubter to prove it DOESN'T exist ? Isn't it the burden of proof of the claimants to prove it DOES exist ?

My True Intentions are to have all Theories, Speculations or Clues.... Scrutinized... As whether they may Contribute to a Solution or Be Against any Solution to the Mystery of Oak Island.

Whether it takes several pages of debate, discussion, or disclosure, to obtain this closure.

My Prime Directive will always be the Search For Truth and Justice!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... all Theories, Speculations or Clues.... Scrutinized... As whether they may Contribute to a Solution or Be Against any Solution to the Mystery of Oak Island.

Whether it takes several pages of debate, discussion, or disclosure, to obtain ....

Ok. Then we're on the same page. And to show how the human psyche works, in such legends (they way they can evolve) is very-much to add to the "scrutiny".

 

[Robot]

Much Ado About Nothing!

Ok. Then we're on the same page. And to show how the human psyche works, in such legends (they way they can evolve) is very-much to add to the "scrutiny".

Unless One Adds...More Clues!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... Unless One Adds...More Clues!

Here's a way to 'diss Tom-in-CA's approach to legends: What I have done, is known as the logical fallacy : "genetic fallacy". To show HOW some belief came about. As if that dis-proved it.

Example:

To tell a believer, in a certain religious belief: "You only believe that, because you were born to parents that believe that. Hence, odds are, kids/persons raised in certain cultures, will tend to adopt the beliefs of that geographic/cultural locale".

Notice that in that example, the person trying to cast doubt on the religious or cultural belief, HAS NOT ADDRESSED the belief itself. Instead, they only cast aspersions on the ORIGIN of the person or belief. Rather than the pros & con's of the belief itself.

I'm surprised no one has called me to the carpet on that. And accused me of "genetic fallacy". See ? I'm doing all the believers a favor. By un-ravelling my own tactic ! You owe me one

 

[Robot]

Genetic Fallacy?

Here's a way to 'diss Tom-in-CA's approach to legends: What I have done, is known as the logical fallacy : "genetic fallacy". To show HOW some belief came about. As if that dis-proved it.

Example:

To tell a believer, in a certain religious belief: "You only believe that, because you were born to parents that believe that. Hence, odds are, kids/persons raised in certain cultures, will tend to adopt the beliefs of that geographic/cultural locale".

Notice that in that example, the person trying to cast doubt on the religious or cultural belief, HAS NOT ADDRESSED the belief itself. Instead, they only cast aspersions on the ORIGIN of the person or belief. Rather than the pros & con's of the belief itself.

I'm surprised no one has called me to the carpet on that. And accused me of "genetic fallacy". See ? I'm doing all the believers a favor. By un-ravelling my own tactic ! You owe me one

Can It Solve The Mystery Of Oak Island?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Can It Solve The Mystery Of Oak Island? ...

Maybe there's not a "mystery" . Maybe it can be statistically shown, that if you went to 100 other random islands , and dug 100 random holes, that you'd likely find various "mysteries" and "clues" . That can be woven into various theories, legends, conspiracies, etc.... ?

How about the Roman coin, dated AD 100-ish, that was found by an MD'r in a Monterey CA old-town demolition site tearout ? What is more plausible: A) "The Romans sailed here 2000 yrs. ago " ? B) A souvenir pocket piece, probably brought back by a returning soldier after WWI or WWII ?

As you can see, I would not label that a "mystery". It's an odds-on-favorite that a simple explanation exists. And that the Romans were not here 2000 yrs. ago. That is my theory about any salacious details that can be shown at O.I. = Same concept.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

And the trouble with trying to "disprove" any salacious detail (stories of fibers, tree species, an axe-head origin, supposed gold links, strange lights said-to-have-been seen, etc...) is that the MOMENT anyone tries to cast doubt, or show a "more plausible explanation", is the moment that the debate gets thrust down 20 pages of debate or coconut fiber bouyancy, whether or not ship currents did or didn't pass by there, how many men using manual tools does it take to dig 100 ft. deep, blah blah blah.

And it will become a game of "wack-a-mole". As if ... even IF some fiber or manual labor ability, or axe-head, etc.... can't be DIS- proven, as if that somehow, therefore, makes the entire treasure notion.... of necessity ... true. Why is that ? Odd unexplained stuff can exist all sorts of places on earth (like the Roman coin in Monterey example). Yet we can agree that they don't necessarily mean "treasure".

I see no "mystery" whatsoever in O.I. But that's just me.

 

[Robot]

What Would Be Your Genetic Fallacy...To Explain...My Celestial Map!

That it is an... Unknown quantum...That these Stars shining over Oak Island... Would have the same Terrestrial Markers on Oak Island.

Start with this...Then we can have Several Pages...Discussing It!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

That it is an... Unknown quantum...That these Stars shining over Oak Island... Would have the same Terrestrial Markers on Oak Island.

Start with this...Then we can have Several Pages...Discussing It!

View attachment 1674511

Haha. Durned those freemasons after all !

 

[Robot]

Did The Freemason Depositors...Designed Oak Island...As A...One Time Deposit?

I believe what is being uncovered...May prove the Original Depositors...Planned to use Oak Island...to make future deposits to.

 

[franklin]

I believe what is being uncovered...May prove the Original Depositors...Planned to use Oak Island...to make future deposits to.

That is one thing that can not be denied, no others on Earth would have laid out the Northern Cross with huge boulders, other than the Knight's Templar. Also even left a direction marker to the Entrance. That is the Entrance according to the Cremona Document. A Kabbala Tree of life laid out over 800 feet by 300 feet with direct proportions to the Masonic Sign. There was something went on at Oak Island and it needs to be checked out further whether any treasure is found or not.

 

[Robot]

Makes Me Wonder!

Maybe there's not a "mystery" . Maybe it can be statistically shown, that if you went to 100 other random islands , and dug 100 random holes, that you'd likely find various "mysteries" and "clues" . That can be woven into various theories, legends, conspiracies, etc.... ?

How about the Roman coin, dated AD 100-ish, that was found by an MD'r in a Monterey CA old-town demolition site tearout ? What is more plausible: A) "The Romans sailed here 2000 yrs. ago " ? B) A souvenir pocket piece, probably brought back by a returning soldier after WWI or WWII ?

As you can see, I would not label that a "mystery". It's an odds-on-favorite that a simple explanation exists. And that the Romans were not here 2000 yrs. ago. That is my theory about any salacious details that can be shown at O.I. = Same concept.

 

[Raparee]

If I supported that there was a treasure, my evidence would be:

The three gold links

The sworn deposition of lose metal like coins rattling around when the drill bit penetrated deeper into the pit

The piece of parchment

COOI:

Evidence from that show would be metal hinges found deep in the pit

bone fragments

book bindings

A Mcginnis family member claiming they found three chests and producing an item from them.

But at this point, even I am not entirely convinced that there is, was, or isn't a treasure.

I think that part of the problem may be what people consider to be 'evidence'. Evidence, as per Prof. Google, is "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid." A few gold links, a small piece of parchment, some scraps of metal or bone is in no way indicative that the stories of treasure being true or valid.

However, you can't prove there isn't a treasure until the search is completed. So there isn't any evidence you can present. Therefore, the treasure can't and shouldn't be debated.

At what point will the search be completed? Say the Laginas give up on the island and move on without finding anything. Is the search completed then? No, because someone will claim that they should have dug a foot to the east, or a few inches deeper, or on another part of the island, or even (as we are hearing now) on a completely different island.... or under Washington's grave, or something. The search will continue forever. I mean it's been over 200 years now, with nothing to show for it. at what point is enough enough?
... and again, it's the responsibility of the 'believers' to prove that there is treasure there. It is not up to of the 'debunkers' to prove that there is not.

 

[xaos]

Id say that the current work has quite a ways to go before they hit anywhere near the levels excavated to in the past.

1909 and 1931...



"U" shaped coffer dam exposed in 1960...



1970's this massive trench was simply bulldozed flat to fill it...this is probably the "tunnels" the current seismic study has found.



A sample of the digging, coffer dams, shafts, trenches, shoring, blasting, and other works...late 1800's, all before 1900. with references to excavation encountered from the early 1800's

1850

Under the rocks are five 8-inch wide drains of flat stones over pairs of parallel lines of stones converging to a single larger drain at the high tide line, leading inland. As the drains are excavated, they are found to slope down toward the shore.

1861
April 3
The Oak Island Association syndicate is formed, based on the Truro syndicate. Included are Adam Tupper, Jotham McCully, James McNutt, Jefferson McDonald, Samuel Retti, and George Mitchell. They make a deal with land owner Anthony Graves, to give him one-third of any treasure recovered. The company issues 100 shares at $20 each. [4.48] (1860 [5.50]) (1863 [7.37])
(month unknown)
The Oak Island Association resumes the search. The Money Pit is cleared to 88 feet, encountering no water. A new shaft (5B) 25 feet away is dug to 120 feet, with no sign of the flood tunnel. [4.48] [5.50] (1863 [1.194] [7.38])
Another shaft (No. 6) is dug 18 feet west of Money Pit. At 118 feet, a horizontal tunnel toward the Money Pit is started. At 17 feet toward the main shaft, water and mud again rush in. A pumping gin is employed, but stopped after three days pumping with no progress in keeping the water out. [4.50] [5.50]
A tunnel is dug from the 120 foot shaft, 25 feet away from the Money Pit. Again, as they get close to the main pit, uncontrollable water rushes in. They try bailing the three shafts using four 70-gallon buckets with all 63 men and 33 horses. They abandon this after a couple days. [4.50] [5.51]
Two men go into a connecting tunnel toward the Money Pit to clear out the mud. A big crash is heard, the men barely escape, and water rushes in. The water level is lowered again, then another big crash is heard, then collapse of timbering within Money Pit, leaving only the upper 30 feet. Now, the bottom is sounded at 102 feet, 14 feet lower than previous. Some artifacts are recovered from the inrush of debris, but no treasure. Artifacts recovered: bottom of yellow painted barrel or dish, stick of oak timber 3.5 feet long, piece of juniper with bark on and cut at each end, spruce slab with mining auger hole in it. [4.50] [5.51] [7.38]
The Oak Island Association raises another $2000. [4.53]

September 30
The Novascotian publishes an article "The Oak Island Folly". [3.43] [5.206]

1862
(Spring) The Oak Island Association digs a shaft (No. 7) close to the west of the Money Pit. It is dug to 107 feet, using a pump to keep it free of water. At 90 feet tools from 1850 Truro work are found; at 100 feet tools of 1804 Onslow are found. No sign of the water tunnel is found down to 107 feet. Then the Money Pit is dug and sides cribbed to 103 feet, but pumping cannot keep up with water to dig further. [4.54] [5.52] [7.39]
A new shaft is dug inland from Smith's Cove, down to 50 feet, no flood tunnel found. Tunnels are dug from the bottom in various directions, but encounter no flood tunnel. [4.54] [5.52] [7.39]
The box drains of Smith's Cove are uncovered and 30-40 feet are removed and packed full of clay. This reduces the water flow into the Money Pit, but the sea soon clears out the clay. [4.55] [5.52] [7.39] Box drains removed?

1863
Shaft 9 is dug, 100 feet south-east of the Money Pit, 20 feet south of the assumed line of the flood tunnel. They dig down to 120 feet, then dig toward Smith's Cove in search of the flood tunnel. Another tunnel is dug toward the Money Pit, reaching it at the 108 foot level. The Money Pit is cribbed to 108 feet, and tunnels are dug from that level in search of treasure. [1.196] [4.54] [5.52] [7.39]

1866 Who built to coffer dam?

The Oak Island Eldorado Company builds a 375 foot long 12 foot high dam of wood and clay at Smith's Cove. The dam fails to keep water out of the Money Pit, and the sea quickly destroys the dam. [1.195] [4.56] [5.54] [7.43]
November 26
(to January 7, 1867) The Money Pit is cleared to 108 feet, and continuous pumping keeps the water level low. A drill is set at the 90 foot level. Drilling hits spruce wood at 110 feet. At 128 feet, borings include coconut fiber, wood chips, and charcoal. At 132 feet, oak borings, chips of spruce or poplar, and coconut fiber. At 158-163 feet, all holes hit hard reddish marl natural to the island. [1.195] [5.54] [4.57] [7.43,44]

1897

The Oak Island Treasure Company drills to 153 feet, then encounters 7 inches of soft stone, 5 inches of oak, then perhaps soft metal. Drill operator William Chappell finds traces of gold on the drill, but keeps it a secret. [1.171]
Five small holes, 15 feet apart, along a line 80-95 feet are drilled 50 feet inland from high tide on Smith's Cove. Only the center hole reaches salt water at 80 feet. Each hole is loaded with 50-75 pounds of dynamite, and blown up. No great effect. 160 pounds detonated in the middle hole causes water in the Money Pit and Cave-in Pit to foam and bubble, proving a connection between the Money Pit and the shore. [1.197] [4.66] [5.63] [7.84]
Captain Welling discovers an equilateral triangle of stones near the high water mark of the south shore, 10 feet on each side, with the base running approximately east-to-west. [4.112] [7.92]
Assuming the flood tunnel is now clogged from the dynamiting, work commences on the Money Pit. Water is pumped out down to 100 feet, and a platform and drill (2.5-inch drill in 3-inch pipe) are set at the 90 foot level. The first drilling hits oak at 126 feet, for 5 inches, then hits iron, can't drill through it. [1.197] [4.68] [5.65] [7.85]
The second drill hole is made 1 foot from the first. Drilling gets to 153 feet 8 inches, then hits soft stone or cement, 7 inches thick, then 5 inches solid oak. Then a 1.5-2 inch gap, then through possibly soft metal. Further drilling in this hole encounters (possibly) metal in pieces, then the same undrillable iron near 154 ft. Borings brought up include oak chips, coconut fiber, and other bits that will be examined later (piece of parchment). [1.197] [4.68] [5.65] [7.85]
The third drill hole strikes wood at 122 feet, then cement at 153 feet. Then the drill runs between wood and cement for 4 feet, and cement alone another 3 feet, then 11 feet of blue puddled clay to a depth of 160 feet. Then an iron barrier is struck at 171 feet. Drilling for 2-3 hours only gets 1/4 inch into the iron. Borings checked with a magnet confirm iron cuttings. [4.68] [5.65] [7.85]
The fourth hole encounters iron at 166 feet, passes through, then drilling ends at 188 feet in solid clay. [5.65] [7.85]
The fifth hole encounters cement at 150 feet, continuing for 20 feet, then drilling through clay ends at 175 feet. One hole encounters gushing water at 126 feet, 400 gallons per minute flow rate, suggesting a tunnel to the south shore. [4.68] [5.65] [7.85]
At the Court House in Amherst, Dr. A.E. Porter studies with a magnifying glass recent borings brought up from drilling. He unrolls a tiny fragment that appears to be parchment with writing, possibly showing "vi", "ui", or "wi". [1.197] [4.68] [7.89]
Experts in Boston examine the tiny piece of parchment, confirming the material and that it is inscribed with India ink. [1.197] [4.68] [7.89]

1898

April
Shaft #18 near the Money Pit is dug down to 160 feet, then water rushes in. Water in the Money Pit initially lowers by 14 feet, indicating the two pits are connected. [4.72] [5.74] [7.90]

Shaft 19 is dug to 144 feet, then abandoned due to quicksand, unsafe soil, boulders, or inrush of water. [4.72] [7.90]

1899

Shaft 20, 5 feet by 8 feet, is excavated beside the Money Pit on the west side. A mass of cribbing is encountered, likely from 1850 excavations. By 113 feet, the pumps are overwhelmed by the quantity of water flowing

Summary:

Again, what part of this island has not been excavated to at least 100 or more feet? Wonder if the current people looking for the finger drains realize they were partially removed in 1850, and later in 1862...

1850: Under the rocks are five 8-inch wide drains of flat stones over pairs of parallel lines of stones converging to a single larger drain at the high tide line, leading inland. As the drains are excavated, they are found to slope down toward the shore

1862: The Oak Island Eldorado Company builds a 375 foot long 12 foot high dam of wood and clay at Smith's Cove Do they realize the "u" shaped coffer dam (with the roman numerals, was built in 1862) Carved with an axe, what else would you number with than notch simple roman numerals with an axe?

1866: The box drains of Smith's Cove are uncovered and 30-40 feet are removed and packed full of clay.

Has anyone simply drilled a well to see what the naturally occurring groundwater level is on an island next to the Ocean

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... At what point will the search be completed? .....

Never. It's never that a treasure "isn't" there. It will *always* be a "little more to the left" or a "little more to the right", or a "little deeper". But NEVER can we conclude "it's not there". That's never an acceptable answer.

And how do we know this conclusion ? Simple: Point to the legend. Eg.: 3 gold links, strange lights, a cool camp-fire legend, etc.....