Not clouds

[deducer]

The new cadmium-Telluride-selenium panels are hitting 22.1%. And First Solar here in Arizona is claiming a 29 cent per watt production cost.

Nothing wrong with going solar. Just do it because you want to be independent, not because you bought into the whole man made climate change CO2 crap.

Either way, it's the common sense solution.

 

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[deducer]

Completely ridiculous to dismiss the potential of solar power when you consider that burning fossil fuel is an extremely wasteful way to create energy, not only creating harmful byproducts and toxic waste, but also losing a lot of energy in the form of heat waste, just as with the internal combustion engine.

Nobody has ever gotten cancer from being exposed to solar power. Now, coal... that's another story.

Land? How about millions upon millions of roofs?

If all the sunlight energy striking the Earth's surface in Texas alone could be converted to electricity, it would be up to 300 times the total power output of all the power plants in the world.

I'm sure we'll figure out a way to harness it for industrial use.

 

[somehiker]

Hate to tell you guys this but renewable energy will NEVER be sufficient for heavy industry. It simply uses too much power. Now for home based systems, it may work just fine.

But the problem is the fact the "green energy" isn't so green when you drill down into it. The materials have to be lined somewhere and depending on WHERE they are mined the effects on the environment can be anywhere from minor and short term to severe and long term.

Once battery tech gets better and solar panels come down to a reasonable price maybe more people will buy them.

At best, it's going to take a huge investment and many years before renewables do anything more than supplement oil, gas, hydro and nuclear.....but some folks think it can all be made to happen overnight with no FU's. That's nothing but whistling past the graveyard IMO. Look at what's happening in Venezuela for instance. Solar and wind wouldn't have sustained their failed economy, even if they had given it a shot. All they really had was oil, like many other countries still do. Are these socialist fruitcakes ready to ante up everything they have left, in order to prop these countries up for as long as it will take to convert and stabilize things ?......I'd say, not a chance.

 

[azdave35]

Completely ridiculous to dismiss the potential of solar power when you consider that burning fossil fuel is an extremely wasteful way to create energy, not only creating harmful byproducts and toxic waste, but also losing a lot of energy in the form of heat waste, just as with the internal combustion engine.

Nobody has ever gotten cancer from being exposed to solar power. Now, coal... that's another story.

Land? How about millions upon millions of roofs?

If all the sunlight energy striking the Earth's surface in Texas alone could be converted to electricity, it would be up to 300 times the total power output of all the power plants in the world.

I'm sure we'll figure out a way to harness it for industrial use.

deducer....this will never happen for one reason...the big boys who run the world also own the water, power and oil .and they make billions from it...you think they are just going to step down and give all this up?...look what they did to tesla

 

[somehiker]

Completely ridiculous to dismiss the potential of solar power when you consider that burning fossil fuel is an extremely wasteful way to create energy, not only creating harmful byproducts and toxic waste, but also losing a lot of energy in the form of heat waste, just as with the internal combustion engine.

Nobody has ever gotten cancer from being exposed to solar power. Now, coal... that's another story.

Land? How about millions upon millions of roofs?

If all the sunlight energy striking the Earth's surface in Texas alone could be converted to electricity, it would be up to 300 times the total power output of all the power plants in the world.

I'm sure we'll figure out a way to harness it for industrial use.

I don't think anyone in this conversation is dismissing the potential, or the benefits of switching to renewals in the longer term.
We are not troglodytes who want nothing better than the status quo. It's just that we want to see and examine for ourselves what both the benefits and drawbacks might actually do for human sustainability in the future. Pumping the good, while minimizing the bad does not lead to progress,....ever.
I'm actually pro EV for uses where it works, and I'm sure that it won't be long before longer cross country trips can be made in yet to be mass produced and affordable personal vehicles. But or now, I think that hybrids are the best we have, although the initial outlay and high replacement cost for batteries is still to high for those as well. I've been keeping an eye on how the rental car market has been responding to the increased availability of both EV's and Hybrids, as a way of gauging their utility and reliability. There's not much out there yet, but I was able to rent Ford Fusion hybrids the last two times I was in Arizona. One was a 2017 with about 22,000 mi.,and the other a brand new 2018 loaded version with about 40 on the clock. Both worked well and were a nice ride , but the rental cost was substantially greater, with the newer one priced the same as it's BMW gas only luxury counterpart in the fleet. Still, I was happy for the chance at first hand experience with this newer and greener generation of daily drivers. I've also made some changes and updates to my home, with one being kinda amusing to my immediate neighbors. My house is oriented facing east, towards the rising sun. Once the snow begins to fall in winter, and even though the roof pitch at the front is 45 deg., the snow builds up where it remains until early to mid march at least. The back half of the roof has a lesser pitch, about 10 deg., and is able to soak up more of the day's available sunshine. While great for the winter season, it tends to make the 2nd floor temps too high for comfort the rest of the year. The shingles were in need of replacement, so despite some misgivings re: property resale value and jibes from my neighbors, I used dark brown on the front and light tan shingle on the back half. All in all, and with the installation of a new and quite expensive very high efficiency gas furnace, just those two things have reduced my carbon use from about $400 for Jan/Feb combined, to about $150 for the same period. Now that its warming up....better late than never....the lighter covered roofing on the back also seems to be keeping the temps down somewhat upstairs.
So just so you know and understand, I am looking at all of this from both sides, not just one.

 

[deducer]

when my friends did solar i quizzed them on it...they are both leasing the system...if you were to buy it..it would cost 30k and you would be responsible for repairs and install...if you lease they install the system and take care of all repairs...now for the bad part.....the rent on the system is $100 a month...and salt river project charges a $100 a month surcharge for allowing you to go solar....so its 200 a month right off the bat.....for 7 months out of the year the srp bill without solar is usually 100 or under....and in the summer months srp charges you double....so the bill jumps up to 300-400 a month...if you do the math i dont think you are saving much if anything...hopefully as technology increases it will be more cost effective

That's if you chose to stay on the grid. If you go off it, they can't force you to do anything.

 

[deducer]

deducer....this will never happen for one reason...the big boys who run the world also own the water, power and oil .and they make billions from it...you think they are just going to step down and give all this up?...look what they did to tesla

Oh I know they'll go all out to retain the status quo; they've sabotaged development of anything solar. The US Government annually hands out $30 billion of subsidies to prop the oil/gas industry, and of course, renewables receive a meager $.037 billion.

But the big boys are on their way out. Climate change is forcing that kind of change.

As I said, the sun is everywhere and blasting the Earth with 30,000 times the energy we'll ever need. It's impossible for it not to be harnessed by individuals for themselves, at some point or another. There are already so many DIY kits out there. Even Home Depot sells them.

 

[deducer]

I don't think anyone in this conversation is dismissing the potential, or the benefits of switching to renewals in the longer term.
We are not troglodytes who want nothing better than the status quo. It's just that we want to see and examine for ourselves what both the benefits and drawbacks might actually do for human sustainability in the future. Pumping the good, while minimizing the bad does not lead to progress,....ever.
I'm actually pro EV for uses where it works, and I'm sure that it won't be long before longer cross country trips can be made in yet to be mass produced and affordable personal vehicles. But or now, I think that hybrids are the best we have, although the initial outlay and high replacement cost for batteries is still to high for those as well. I've been keeping an eye on how the rental car market has been responding to the increased availability of both EV's and Hybrids, as a way of gauging their utility and reliability. There's not much out there yet, but I was able to rent Ford Fusion hybrids the last two times I was in Arizona. One was a 2017 with about 22,000 mi.,and the other a brand new 2018 loaded version with about 40 on the clock. Both worked well and were a nice ride , but the rental cost was substantially greater, with the newer one priced the same as it's BMW gas only luxury counterpart in the fleet. Still, I was happy for the chance at first hand experience with this newer and greener generation of daily drivers. I've also made some changes and updates to my home, with one being kinda amusing to my immediate neighbors. My house is oriented facing east, towards the rising sun. Once the snow begins to fall in winter, and even though the roof pitch at the front is 45 deg., the snow builds up where it remains until early to mid march at least. The back half of the roof has a lesser pitch, about 10 deg., and is able to soak up more of the day's available sunshine. While great for the winter season, it tends to make the 2nd floor temps too high for comfort the rest of the year. The shingles were in need of replacement, so despite some misgivings re: property resale value and jibes from my neighbors, I used dark brown on the front and light tan shingle on the back half. All in all, and with the installation of a new and quite expensive very high efficiency gas furnace, just those two things have reduced my carbon use from about $400 for Jan/Feb combined, to about $150 for the same period. Now that its warming up....better late than never....the lighter covered roofing on the back also seems to be keeping the temps down somewhat upstairs.
So just so you know and understand, I am looking at all of this from both sides, not just one.

Acquiring energy via solar power is a passive, absorption process that has the same mechanism and function that plants and trees have implemented for millions of years, apparently without harm to the environment.

The idea that such a passive process would have an equal amount of drawbacks, negative impact, and dangers, as the aggressive, wasteful method of producing energy by burning energy. i.e., fossil fuel, is wholly unfounded.

And so, you are into energy conservation after all. Energy conservation is a cornerstone of any respectable response to climate change, so you've technically gone green, and I thought you were a stubborn old goat.

 

[sdcfia]

Oh I know they'll go all out to retain the status quo; they've sabotaged development of anything solar. The US Government annually hands out $30 billion of subsidies to prop the oil/gas industry, and of course, renewables receive a meager $.037 billion.

But the big boys are on their way out. Climate change is forcing that kind of change.

As I said, the sun is everywhere and blasting the Earth with 30,000 times the energy we'll ever need. It's impossible for it not to be harnessed by individuals for themselves, at some point or another. There are already so many DIY kits out there. Even Home Depot sells them.

Sure, alternative energy uses will increase when the big boys figure it benefits them more than continued fossil fuel usage. That's how the big boys roll - always the greatest benefit to them.

If climate change forces the big boys out, history shows it will be because of a cooling cycle on Earth, not a heating cycle. Societal breakdown has frequently been directly tied to the cyclical heating/cooling cycles of the earth - crop failures and other environmental factors during the cooler cycles being the strongest reasons. Gotta eat every day to stay healthy and live. When the people are starving, society breaks down and changes happen.

The sun's latest Grand Solar Minimum cycle is upon us. Seek out and monitor independent world weather data and agricultural news, not IPCC propagandists, and you'll see that we're actually easing into another cooling cycle. The total lack of sunspots is a bad omen for many earthlings. Why do you reckon China and Russia are acquiring such a presence in the temperate latitudes of Africa where water is available? And building so many under-roof factory farms back home in the higher latitudes? When the masses are fed, they are less likely to pick up the pitchforks.

 

[Mad Machinist]

Acquiring energy via solar power is a passive, absorption process that has the same mechanism and function that plants and trees have implemented for millions of years, apparently without harm to the environment.

The idea that such a passive process would have an equal amount of drawbacks, negative impact, and dangers, as the aggressive, wasteful method of producing energy by burning energy. i.e., fossil fuel, is wholly unfounded.

And so, you are into energy conservation after all. Energy conservation is a cornerstone of any respectable response to climate change, so you've technically gone green, and I thought you were a stubborn old goat.

And that is straight up bullshit. The problem is the fact that so much of the truth about "renewables" is hidden from view that no one really knows about it. ALL the materials for "renewables" have to be mined somewhere. When THAT is added into the equation the carbon gap between fossil fuels and "renewables" is about even.

The truth on "tenewables" is slowly coming out and it isn't pretty for "renewables". Let me see if I can find the study that shows my big diesel truck has less of a carbon footprint than an EV.

 

[deducer]

And that is straight up bullshit. The problem is the fact that so much of the truth about "renewables" is hidden from view that no one really knows about it. ALL the materials for "renewables" have to be mined somewhere. When THAT is added into the equation the carbon gap between fossil fuels and "renewables" is about even.

The truth on "tenewables" is slowly coming out and it isn't pretty for "renewables". Let me see if I can find the study that shows my big diesel truck has less of a carbon footprint than an EV.

No problem. Go ahead and locate that study, but if it's funded by anything remotely related to the Koch brothers, don't expect me to take it seriously.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

No problem. Go ahead and locate that study, but if it's funded by anything remotely related to the Koch brothers, don't expect me to take it seriously.

Aw, just put your waders on like everyone else.

I like your skepticism of "studies" sponsored by industry special interests. Friendly recommendation, keep that same caution when looking at "studies" by opposing special interests.

Both sides have an agenda and they both suck.

 

[gollum]

No problem. Go ahead and locate that study, but if it's funded by anything remotely related to the Koch brothers, don't expect me to take it seriously.

Not the place for a political discussion/argument, but I hate it when EVERYBODY on the left drags out the Koch Brothers as the evil do all-end all on the right, and the right always drags out George Soros (although anyone who listens to his interview will really get the creeps, especially when he says the time he spent under Nazi Occupation was the best year of his life) as the arch villain of the left.


Mike

 

[Mad Machinist]

No problem. Go ahead and locate that study, but if it's funded by anything remotely related to the Koch brothers, don't expect me to take it seriously.

Here's on of them. https://notrickszone.com/2019/04/19...r-climate-than-diesel-cars-up-to-25-more-co2/

 

[gollum]

Oh I know they'll go all out to retain the status quo; they've sabotaged development of anything solar. The US Government annually hands out $30 billion of subsidies to prop the oil/gas industry, and of course, renewables receive a meager $.037 billion.

But the big boys are on their way out. Climate change is forcing that kind of change.

As I said, the sun is everywhere and blasting the Earth with 30,000 times the energy we'll ever need. It's impossible for it not to be harnessed by individuals for themselves, at some point or another. There are already so many DIY kits out there. Even Home Depot sells them.

The components of solar panels have to be mined and produced. Energy has to be stored in Deep Cycle Batteries (Lead and Acid).

Until someone RE-figures out what Tesla did regarding Aetheric Energy Propagation and Use, we are all tied to fossil fuels. I would like to see the research on whether oil is REALLY a fossil fuel. There are several oilfields that thought they reached peak production, but found that the field was filling back up. They believe oil may come from natural chemical processes and not dead dinosaurs and plants.

Mike

 

[deducer]

Aw, just put your waders on like everyone else.

I like your skepticism of "studies" sponsored by industry special interests. Friendly recommendation, keep that same caution when looking at "studies" by opposing special interests.

Both sides have an agenda and they both suck.

Where they both suck is when it comes to encouraging individualism, or being truly independent- e.g., living off the grid.

As an interesting aside, the democratic debate was last night and the night before, and climate change was banned from being extensively discussed- received only about 7 minutes air-time.

 

[deducer]

Not the place for a political discussion/argument, but I hate it when EVERYBODY on the left drags out the Koch Brothers as the evil do all-end all on the right, and the right always drags out George Soros (although anyone who listens to his interview will really get the creeps, especially when he says the time he spent under Nazi Occupation was the best year of his life) as the arch villain of the left.


Mike

I've never believed that politics was or is a left or right issue (I am neither), but has always been an up and down problem.

 

[deducer]

The components of solar panels have to be mined and produced. Energy has to be stored in Deep Cycle Batteries (Lead and Acid).

Until someone RE-figures out what Tesla did regarding Aetheric Energy Propagation and Use, we are all tied to fossil fuels. I would like to see the research on whether oil is REALLY a fossil fuel. There are several oilfields that thought they reached peak production, but found that the field was filling back up. They believe oil may come from natural chemical processes and not dead dinosaurs and plants.

Mike

This is assuming that solar technology will not evolve.

Older solar panels were full of toxic elements- over time this has been reduced, and continues to be reduced although elements like cadium and lead remain potent issues. However, the technology for recycling panels is just getting underway.

Today's solar panels have a shelf life of 30 plus years, and is far more durable than in the past, and this continues to grow.

"Home batteries" such as Tesla's powerwall, is a solid state battery and contains no lead, acid, or unstable chemicals.

If solar energy received even just half the subsidies that coal and oil receive, that would be a big shot in the arm, as far as R&D. Someday, we'll be able to capture and convert sunlight into energy in a completely toxic-free method, just like plants have done for millions of years.

 

[gollum]

I think most people feel as I do:

We should all be good stewards of our environment. We should all do our best not to pollute or trash our world. Global Climate Change happens. EVERY model predicting everything from Global Cooling(70's), to Global Warming(90's), to Global Climate Change(current) has been gloriously and ginormously wrong. Global Climate Change has been going on since the beginning of time. It is wholly unpredictable and not affected to any real extent by human occupation.

Mike

 

[Mad Machinist]

This is assuming that solar technology will not evolve.

Older solar panels were full of toxic elements- over time this has been reduced, and continues to be reduced although elements like cadium and lead remain potent issues. However, the technology for recycling panels is just getting underway.

Today's solar panels have a shelf life of 30 plus years, and is far more durable than in the past, and this continues to grow.

"Home batteries" such as Tesla's powerwall, is a solid state battery and contains no lead, acid, or unstable chemicals.

If solar energy received even just half the subsidies that coal and oil receive, that would be a big shot in the arm, as far as R&D. Someday, we'll be able to capture and convert sunlight into energy in a completely toxic-free method, just like plants have done for millions of years.

Don't even get me started on the Tesla powerwall battery. At nearly $7000 for the battery plus installation costs, Musk is real concerned about one thing, his wallet not the environment.