New site?...with different clue versions?

[azdave35]

He passed away...you probably knew him by his real name...I can't recall it but Marius was friends with him.

jim...i did alot of p.m. with him but never knew his real name....me and a couple other guys tried to find the stone that np said was down a well by wards cabin...i'd like to know his name

 

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[PotBelly Jim]

jim...i did alot of p.m. with him but never knew his real name....me and a couple other guys tried to find the stone that np said was down a well by wards cabin...i'd like to know his name

ah...probly why I can't recall his name...he must've never revealed it...if I recall correctly, years ago CJ was arguing with him and it sounded like CJ knew who he was and said he was part of Ward's bunch. I may be mangling that.

 

[somehiker]

Perhaps I should, but I don't consider any map or clues to the Lost Dutchman Mine to be valid, i.e. coming from JW. I guess I'm just jaded. Maybe I've seen too many old guys spewing whatever they could to some poor fool for the price of a beer. Good people then get ahold of that crap and they waste their time, effort and money looking for something that just isn't there. I think there was a source of gold that JW found, I just don't believe any of the stories about where it was or how rich it was, etc.

I'd rather see what you have to say as I often wondered why there were things like ball courts in AZ (saw you posted a video on that...DAI strikes again!) and have a feeling there's something to it all...the Pimas seem to think there is.

Archaeology Southwest is an offshoot non-profit of DAI, dedicated to "preservation archaeology". Their website has a ton of great presentation vids, and printed/printable information on all kinds of topics about Arizona's past. Well worth watching, if you really want to know what they are finding out there, how much the historical database has grown, and how all of this has caused them to re-evaluate previous theories about the ancient people and their cultural connections (ball courts),trade networks (cacao and macaw feathers etc)....... and migrations.
Another site I follow is....https://www.youtube.com/user/AZarchaeologyVVC

 

[azdave35]

ah...probly why I can't recall his name...he must've never revealed it...if I recall correctly, years ago CJ was arguing with him and it sounded like CJ knew who he was and said he was part of Ward's bunch. I may be mangling that.

he told me he used to hang out with bob and his crew...he knew about the conquistador cave and a few other things in bobs area

 

[Secret squirl]

His middle name was Friederich...why do you ask, if it's something you don't mind sharing?

EDIT: He was named Jacob after his grandfather on his father's side, and Friederich after his grandfather on his mother's side, if that helps.

Found some initials (JLW) and a #. not in the supers. was just curious.

 

[JohnWhite]

Well ya'll...I know I am not part of your club, nor do I ever hope to be, I am in an exclusive club of my own...hehehe...And I could sit here and laugh at ya'll, instead of with ya'll, until the cows come home...Or at least until someone does figure the stones out and rains on my parade...But I doubt that will happen any time soon...The stones lead to a little place that no prospector would ever think of using his/her rock pick...lol...And I could just be a crazy kook offering to let the cat out of the bag for an 8 figure payday...Oh well...I doubt anyone would ever want to ante up...And I sure as heck will not invite anyone into my little club without a hefty peace offering...

So I do wish ya'll lots of luck in your searches...Where ever ya'll may be searching...IT is where it is...And IF it has remained lost for hundreds of years...I think it will remain lost until I breath my last breath and take said secret with me...rofl...Good luck peeps...And maybe a certain member of this site might let ya'll in on the true results...I just may not be the fibber in the room...But then again...What do I know

Ed T

 

[somehiker]

I've been skeptical of NP's map because of the Jesuit implications, but, yes, I do see similarities between it, the Horse Map and with the MLCXVI ANNO MARIANO map.

Circles in circles? They can be found carved in rock at several strategic locations. As with all this stuff, we'd like to know who carved these symbols and when. IMO, accurate petroglyph dating is pretty much a fool's errand, but many of these particular carvings seem not to be all that old to me. If true, many implications could be drawn.

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Like the stone maps, I believe NP's Doc Noss/Willy D.? map was based on pre or early post colonial information.
I also believe most of the words associating Padre Orosco, dates and places on the map etc., were added to it based on what it's creator/copier thought the original was all about. But that's not saying that the original document hadn't fallen into Jesuit hands, just as I suspect the info used for making the stone maps had. They were also interested in looking out for lost things, like the Valley of the Kings in Egypt.
Probably had treasure on their minds too, at times. The imagery at bottom left is based on mestizo style (pointed sombrero, serpent/sierpe and older iconography (aztec style official building---if original was sans cross--- and the aztec glyph between hat and serpent) IMO.... not Jesuit. I've posted examples of most of these observations previously.

 

[Al D]

Well ya'll...I know I am not part of your club, nor do I ever hope to be, I am in an exclusive club of my own...hehehe...And I could sit here and laugh at ya'll, instead of with ya'll, until the cows come home...Or at least until someone does figure the stones out and rains on my parade...But I doubt that will happen any time soon...The stones lead to a little place that no prospector would ever think of using his/her rock pick...lol...And I could just be a crazy kook offering to let the cat out of the bag for an 8 figure payday...Oh well...I doubt anyone would ever want to ante up...And I sure as heck will not invite anyone into my little club without a hefty peace offering...

So I do wish ya'll lots of luck in your searches...Where ever ya'll may be searching...IT is where it is...And IF it has remained lost for hundreds of years...I think it will remain lost until I breath my last breath and take said secret with me...rofl...Good luck peeps...And maybe a certain member of this site might let ya'll in on the true results...I just may not be the fibber in the room...But then again...What do I know

Ed T

For a bottle of Scotch......you can join

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

GEOGRAPHICALLY RELATIVE! LOL

For many years, the theory was that the Peraltas carried the Stone Maps with them from Mexico to the Supers. Didn't make a lot of sense, but that was the running theory. The stones were lashed to a mule, and when the Apache attacked the caravan, the stones fell to where Travis T picked them in 1949.

Ever since, the Stone Maps have been inextricably linked the the LDM.

I still don't understand why the name Peralta was linked with the Peralta Stone Maps. Does that name appear on them somewhere? I can't remember. Thanks in advance.

Somehiker wrote

Maybe cause so many like yourself call them the "Peralta Stone Maps".
And the Waltz/LDM mystery included the Peraltas.

That is the common name in usage for decades. Everyone knows exactly what you are referring to when you say Peralta Stone Maps. Prior to the 1964 LIFE magazine article no one discussed them publicly.

Deducer wrote

What do the many other legends discussed in this forum have to do with the LDM either? The Stone Crosses, Salazar survey, Fish map, Reavis, Crazy Jake, Crawford, The LaFrance cave of gold, the Massacres, the Peraltas/Gonzales, Goldfield, the various Native American legends (Apache, Yavapai, and Pima), Cave of a thousand eyes, the Black Legion, and many other subjects, legends, and stories which you also have participated in and discussed extensively?

IMO, I think this forum should be renamed "All things Superstition Mountains" because as we know, there is much more to these mountains than just the LDM.

You successfully lobbied to get "Jesuit Treasures" kicked out of this forum. Are you going to try to do the same with the Stone Maps?

If I could, I would. My "lobbying" to get the Jesuit Treasures moved to a separate forum was hardly the only person to request it, and there was good reason in that the Jesuits were active over a much larger area than just the Superstitions. In fact there is little evidence of any Jesuit presence in the Superstition mountains at all. The PSM discussions are endless and flood the threads in the Lost Dutchman sub forum, when really there is no reason to link the stone maps with the LDM other than (perhaps) the mountains, which I would say is not definitely proven that the PSMs even are for the Superstitions at all.

Potbelly Jim wrote

His middle name was Friederich...why do you ask, if it's something you don't mind sharing?

EDIT: He was named Jacob after his grandfather on his father's side, and Friederich after his grandfather on his mother's side, if that helps.

May I ask your source for that middle name? Thanks in advance,

 

[Al D]

There is absolutely no proof that the LDM is even an actual mine, so the whole point is moot

 

[Oroblanco]

There is absolutely no proof that the LDM is even an actual mine, so the whole point is moot

The ore used to make the famous matchbox and jewelry is gold ore, which came from a gold mine.

Side point, I am with Mick on the 1847 being intended as a DATE. It was during the Mexican war, with American forces invading Arizona, a logical time for a Mexican mine operator in Arizona to want to head for quieter country to the southward.

Also a PS on the use of the Peralta Stone Maps moniker Clarence Mitchell tagged them as the Peralta Treasure Maps. So it was already being tagged with the Peralta name as of 1964-5.

 

[Al D]

The ore used to make the famous matchbox and jewelry is gold ore, which came from a gold mine.

Side point, I am with Mick on the 1847 being intended as a DATE. It was during the Mexican war, with American forces invading Arizona, a logical time for a Mexican mine operator in Arizona to want to head for quieter country to the southward.

Also a PS on the use of the Peralta Stone Maps moniker Clarence Mitchell tagged them as the Peralta Treasure Maps. So it was already being tagged with the Peralta name as of 1964-5.

My breakfast cereal came from a farm in Kansas, but that does not mean that you will find a tractor in my cupboard

 

[gollum]

I still don't understand why the name Peralta was linked with the Peralta Stone Maps. Does that name appear on them somewhere? I can't remember. Thanks in advance.

Of course! "MIGUEL" is on the top edge of the H/P Stone, and "PEDRO" is on the horse's flank on the H/P Stone. Miguel and Pedro Peralta were two of the most well known of the family.

Mike

 

[somehiker]

he told me he used to hang out with bob and his crew...he knew about the conquistador cave and a few other things in bobs area

I thought what he wrote sounded a lot like Phil Reinhart's stuff. Sometimes using the same terms and making the same spelling mistakes. Sure was obstinate about that old "mission" photo, wasn't he !

 

[Al D]

Side point, I am with Mick on the 1847 being intended as a DATE. It was during the Mexican war, with American forces invading Arizona, a logical time for a Mexican mine operator in Arizona to want to head for quieter country to the southward.

This makes no sense at all

 

[somehiker]

Of course! "MIGUEL" is on the top edge of the H/P Stone, and "PEDRO" is on the horse's flank on the H/P Stone. Miguel and Pedro Peralta were two of the most well known of the family.

Mike

Correct in that Mike .
But very common Spanish names as well, derived from St. Michael the Archangel and St. Peter, the first pope, who was crucified head-down.

I find it REALLY interesting that the "MIGUEL"....also all in capital letters.....is where it is, AND way up there on top of the stone. I know it doesn't say " San Miguel ", but there might be a reason for that.

 

[jeff of pa]

Well ya'll...I know I am not part of your club, nor do I ever hope to be, I am in an exclusive club of my own...hehehe...And I could sit here and laugh at ya'll, instead of with ya'll, until the cows come home...Or at least until someone does figure the stones out and rains on my parade...But I doubt that will happen any time soon...The stones lead to a little place that no prospector would ever think of using his/her rock pick...lol...And I could just be a crazy kook offering to let the cat out of the bag for an 8 figure payday...Oh well...I doubt anyone would ever want to ante up...And I sure as heck will not invite anyone into my little club without a hefty peace offering...

So I do wish ya'll lots of luck in your searches...Where ever ya'll may be searching...IT is where it is...And IF it has remained lost for hundreds of years...I think it will remain lost until I breath my last breath and take said secret with me...rofl...Good luck peeps...And maybe a certain member of this site might let ya'll in on the true results...I just may not be the fibber in the room...But then again...What do I know

Ed T

JohnWhite; Your a Part Of TreasureNet

That's all that Matters

 

[somehiker]

The ore used to make the famous matchbox and jewelry is gold ore, which came from a gold mine.

Side point, I am with Mick on the 1847 being intended as a DATE. It was during the Mexican war, with American forces invading Arizona, a logical time for a Mexican mine operator in Arizona to want to head for quieter country to the southward.

Also a PS on the use of the Peralta Stone Maps moniker Clarence Mitchell tagged them as the Peralta Treasure Maps. So it was already being tagged with the Peralta name as of 1964-5.

Even earlier than that, Travis had already said he was looking for a Peralta Treasure room in his manuscript. And he died in 1961.
Alene's lawyer had told Mel Brower that she had someone in Arizona who wanted to buy "some treasure maps" and "also the manuscript". That he recommended she sell them, since she would need money for the 6 months she was expecting to live. She passed away in 1963.

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~gcun...r-Tumlinson Investigation (April 2, 1965).pdf

There's more, but one has to read the manuscript itself and to compare it side by side with Mitchell's book in order to understand.

 

[JohnWhite]

JohnWhite; Your a Part Of TreasureNet

That's all that Matters

Thanks for your kind words Jeff...

I am keeping up hope that one day I will be able to retire to Mazatlan...Close to the Heart of the PSM's...I will probably visit Machado Square for old time sakes...I believe that one of his descendants had stumbled upon Santa Fe at one time...Though I don't believe he knew what he had found...Food for thought... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Nepomuceno_Machado ...And I have it on good authority that said descendant was pulling Platinum from said location...Who can say for certainI have been doing some connect the dots since my last time out and I feel comfortable making the claim that I have been to the Santa Fe of lore...The one where the SF bar that Mike posted on TNet probably came from...

Ed T

 

[arcana-exploration]

That's why I had to laugh when Dave said what he did......SMDS made him do it I guess.

So long as we keep talking LDM/Stone Maps, we're still on topic IMO. And I suspect Jeff doesn't mind seeing his thread hit 1000+ posts in only a few weeks. Just goes to show how interesting....and entertaining at times....a few of us find the subject.

When the focus is on the map value of what is on the stones, and who did them ( there could be several sets and versions), then the interest goes up. What you are all talking about is the nitty-gritty now, the map value is what is important. I heard a couple of things the last few days that made sense, actually three things, but two of them got my brain turning, and the other night I could not sleep, and then I went and opened the passport file and started looking(photos) for something and after several hours, it made sense

What I have said is the stone's map value is absolutely for real, and it is amazing how close some of the thinking, especially on the PH stone is. And yes Wayne, I do not know, exactly. but what I am seeing far the original, could be very early on( Kino or before)? There is such a wealth of knowledge here, on the map value, it is good to see that there seems to be a lot of interest there.

,