New site?...with different clue versions?

[Matthew Roberts]

Mike,

The wildcard in the dutchman ore deck, Te tellurium, was known quite some time before T.Glover did the ore analysis. The camp ore that was compared at that time also contains Tellurium. You're not going to get the straight story on the Te analysis by reading the current books.

There are very few gold deposits that remain intact after original deposition. Almost all are altered by subsequent volcanic events which change the mineral and metallic elements. This later volcanic alteration is known as a redeposit. This is what occurred with the dutchman ore only in a very unusual and unique way.

Best,

Matthew

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Diving for Pleasure and Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[somehiker]

Mike,

The wildcard in the dutchman ore deck, Te tellurium, was known quite some time before T.Glover did the ore analysis. The camp ore that was compared at that time also contains Tellurium. You're not going to get the straight story on the Te analysis by reading the current books.

There are very few gold deposits that remain intact after original deposition. Almost all are altered by subsequent volcanic events which change the mineral and metallic elements. This later volcanic alteration is known as a redeposit. This is what occurred with the dutchman ore only in a very unusual and unique way.

Best,

Matthew

The same geological event which resulted in two different types of host rock, Quartz and Hematite......with both containing gold, adjacent to each other at the site.
If someone should visit the mine, and is able to recognize where "samples" were most recently removed from the quartz vein, then additional samples from those locations should match the candlebox ores IMHO.

 

[gollum]

Was that supposed to be a logical argument?

Yeah, somehow I figured I wouldn't get a straight answer from you. While individual mineral content in a given vein may change from one spot to another, Mesothermal Quartz will be Mesothermal Quartz. It does not change and become Epithermal Quartz. The only way that happens is as Kraig said. If a volcanic/geologic event remelted the quartz and it cooled at a different rate, then its crystalline structure may change..........but if you have a solid 18 inch wide vein of quartz, it will not be Mesothermal at the surface, and then change to Epithermal six feet down. If there were an intrusion through the vein, then THAT intrusion may be of different Crystalline Structure, but not the vein it breaks into.

Mike

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Yeah, somehow I figured I wouldn't get a straight answer from you. While individual mineral content in a given vein may change from one spot to another, Mesothermal Quartz will be Mesothermal Quartz. It does not change and become Epithermal Quartz. The only way that happens is as Kraig said. If a volcanic/geologic event remelted the quartz and it cooled at a different rate, then its crystalline structure may change..........but if you have a solid 18 inch wide vein of quartz, it will not be Mesothermal at the surface, and then change to Epithermal six feet down. If there were an intrusion through the vein, then THAT intrusion may be of different Crystalline Structure, but not the vein it breaks into.

Mike

Hello Mike,

As you know, the presence of tellurium (Te) in the dutchman ore precludes all possibility the dutchman ore could be mesothermal. Te cannot form with gold Au and silver Ag at temperatures over 200 degrees C and at
depth of 4000 ft and over.

Gold and silver Te deposits can only form in conditions of temperature from 50 - 200 degree C and at depth from 0 - 4000 ft.

The mesothermal conclusion in the dutchman ore comparison was done visually and not by heat and chemical test.

Dutchman ore was previously tested and the Te was found as well as a heat test to determine the original deposit formation. The deposit was found to be epithermal with the crystallization temperature to be 175 degrees C.

But there is a wild card in that deck also that is explained be redeposition which still doesnt change the epithermal finding.

The explanation of the deposit would take its own thread to understand. There are politics involved with the discussion and people who have prejudices and axes to grind that would make a serious discussion of the facts impossible.

Best,

Matthew

 

[azdave35]

Hello Mike,

As you know, the presence of tellurium (Te) in the dutchman ore precludes all possibility the dutchman ore could be mesothermal. Te cannot form with gold Au and silver Ag at temperatures over 200 degrees C and at
depth of 4000 ft and over.

Gold and silver Te deposits can only form in conditions of temperature from 50 - 200 degree C and at depth from 0 - 4000 ft.

The mesothermal conclusion in the dutchman ore comparison was done visually and not by heat and chemical test.

Dutchman ore was previously tested and the Te was found as well as a heat test to determine the original deposit formation. The deposit was found to be epithermal with the crystallization temperature to be 195 degrees C.

But there is a wild card in that deck also that is explained be redeposition which still doesnt change the epithermal finding.

The explanation of the deposit would take its own thread to understand. There are politics involved with the discussion and people who have prejudices and axes to grind that would make a serious discussion of the facts impossible.

Best,

Matthew

matthew..i'm not sure if you have ever used an xrf analyzer (or any of the other similar gadgets)...they are excellent tools when used properly but they are nowhere near foolproof...I.E. if you have alot of iron in your ore the analyzer will probably see it as platinum....in order to get a more accurate reading you have to grind the ore to 60 mesh and physically pull the iron out with a magnet...after that it no longer shows platinum and you can get a pretty accurate reading...anything that starts with a "t" seems to confuse the machine also..titanium ... tellurium...tungsten... all this newer technology is great but nothing is foolproof (except the ancient art of fire assay)

 

[Matthew Roberts]

matthew..i'm not sure if you have ever used an xrf analyzer (or any of the other similar gadgets)...they are excellent tools when used properly but they are nowhere near foolproof...I.E. if you have alot of iron in your ore the analyzer will probably see it as platinum....in order to get a more accurate reading you have to grind the ore to 60 mesh and physically pull the iron out with a magnet...after that it no longer shows platinum and you can get a pretty accurate reading...anything that starts with a "t" seems to confuse the machine also..titanium ... tellurium...tungsten... all this newer technology is great but nothing is foolproof (except the ancient art of fire assay)

What you say is true Dave. But don't confuse an assay with spectrogram testing. An assay will tell you if Te is present but not if it is a separate element or a composite of gold. Te can only composite with gold in an epithermal deposit. Therefore it is not important to just verify if Te is present, it has to be verified if it has bonded, composite with the gold and or silver.

The difference would be in an assay, Au, ... Ag,... and Te are simply all present.

In spectrogram it will appear as AuAgTe2 a bonded composite. The difference is beyond critical.

Best,

Matthew

 

[azdave35]

What you say is true Dave. But don't confuse an assay with spectrogram testing. An assay will tell you if Te is present but not if it is a separate element or a composite of gold. Te can only composite with gold in an epithermal deposit. Therefore it is not important to just verify if Te is present, it has to be verified if it has bonded, composite with the gold and or silver.

The difference would be in an assay, Au, ... Ag,... and Te are simply all present.

In spectrogram it will appear as AuAgTe2 a bonded composite. The difference is beyond critical.

Best,

Matthew

but only if the spectogram is accurate matthew....there have been many types of spectrogram analyzers from atomic absorption to xrf over the years and none of the results from them can be taken to the bank...they only give you a baseline to go by ..then you go to fire assay....i have an xrf so believe me when i tell you that just because the gadget tells you there is an element present..it just means that further testing is required...the spectrogram analyzers are pretty accurate on gold ,silver ,copper etc...but on the more complex elements...be somewhat skeptical

 

[wrmickel1]

Dave

Basically the Dutchman’s Ore was formed in a low heat source. Then later a high heat source came along. In this case a volcanic vent on the sea floor produced the ore. The calcite in the mix tells me that, the hammer to free the gold from the mix tells me it was Compressed later together in a high heat volcanic event. But I posted this a year or so ago, but I noticed if you post the true here your ridiculed for it and called a lier by all the so called professional people Here.

But I will say I know a lot more about Hunting Metal and Gems then I admit.

babymick1

 

[azdave35]

Dave

Basically the Dutchman’s Ore was formed in a low heat source. Then later a high heat source came along. In this case a volcanic vent on the sea floor produced the ore. The calcite in the mix tells me that, the hammer to free the gold from the mix tells me it was Compressed later together in a high heat volcanic event. But I posted this a year or so ago, but I noticed if you post the true here your ridiculed for it and called a lier by all the so called professional people Here.

But I will say I know a lot more about Hunting Metal and Gems then I admit.

babymick1

yes mick..you are definitely a legend in your own mind

 

[Matthew Roberts]

azdave35,

What you're saying is true. There are flaws and variables in all testing. You can't simply throw out results of a scanning electron microscope SEM and an electron dispersal microscope EDM just because they are sometimes not 100%.

The dutchman ore comparison using SEM and EDM testing established conclusively the presence of Tellurium (Te). Before that testing took place it was already known Te was present in Dutchman ore. The comparison just confirmed what was already known.

And, that not only is Te present, it is present as a gold composite AuAgTe2.

And that, along with other elements present as well as the 175 degree C quartz formation from earlier testing closes the book that dutchman ore is an epithermal formation.

This is where all sensible, factual discussion of dutchman ore composition always breaks down and those with a stake in the ore not being epithermal and have axes to grind with those who know it is epithermal, start throwing a boat load of BS misinformation and irrelevant data to try and bury the truth.

Best,

Matthew

 

[azdave35]

azdave35,

What you're saying is true. There are flaws and variables in all testing. You can't simply throw out results of a scanning electron microscope SEM and an electron dispersal microscope EDM just because they are sometimes not 100%.

The dutchman ore comparison using SEM and EDM testing established conclusively the presence of Tellurium (Te). Before that testing took place it was already known Te was present in Dutchman ore. The comparison just confirmed what was already known.

And, that not only is Te present, it is present as a gold composite AuAgTe2.

And that, along with other elements present as well as the 175 degree C quartz formation from earlier testing closes the book that dutchman ore is an epithermal formation.

This is where all sensible, factual discussion of dutchman ore composition always breaks down and those with a stake in the ore not being epithermal and have axes to grind with those who know it is epithermal, start throwing a boat load of BS misinformation and irrelevant data to try and bury the truth.

Best,

Matthew

sorry matthew but i don't think a couple tests will ever close this book...some people say dutchman is mesothermal and others say epithermal...and all of them think they are correct and everyone else is full of b.s...i don't really care as i have no stake in this or an axe to grind..all i'm saying is if your put your stock in spectrogram testing then you don't know enough about it to sing its praises...i do....and as far as i know the only thing that was tested was the match case..not raw ore...and rumor is that it came from under waltz bed....and that's where the water gets muddy...some people think that box had a collection of different ore he had picked up in his travels...

 

[Matthew Roberts]

I understand what you're saying Dave and if you don't believe the matchbox is dutchman ore then everything is a waste of time. But you cannot say the matchbox isn't dutchman ore, no one can say 100 % conclusively, either way.

To let you know, in the comparison testing the matchbox, a ring and a single piece of raw ore was tested. All three matched as coming from the same source.

Somewhere along the line a person has to believe something if they truly want to get to the bottom of things. If you don't believe the ore is genuine and testing is a waste of time, and everyone is lying we might as well all turn our guns in to the bartender and go home.

 

[azdave35]

I understand what you're saying Dave and if you don't believe the matchbox is dutchman ore then everything is a waste of time. But you cannot say the matchbox isn't dutchman ore, no one can say 100 % conclusively, either way.

To let you know, in the comparison testing the matchbox, a ring and a single piece of raw ore was tested. All three matched as coming from the same source.

Somewhere along the line a person has to believe something if they truly want to get to the bottom of things. If you don't believe the ore is genuine and testing is a waste of time, and everyone is lying we might as well all turn our guns in to the bartender and go home.

actually matthew...i do believe the ore used to make the matchbox came from under waltz bed..and i don't think testing is a waste of time as long as you know the limits of the machine doing the testing..i've done quite a bit of testing with xrf and i can tell you this...the xrf does not go deep in the sample...not much thicker than a sheet of paper...and if you don't have a flat surface to test it scrambles the machine...you wont get accurate results on anything but the matchbox because it's flat...the ring and the ore is tough to test because of the uneven surface..knowing what i know about xrf makes me question the validity of the tests...i've done testing on raw ore and you have to find the flattest spot on the rock for a decent test...ultimately the best way to test is pulverize the rock and spread it out thin and test that way...i have a couple friends with xrf and they actually pulverize the rock...put it in a small press mold and press it into a wafer...pain in the rear but the only way to get a highly accurate reading

 

[Oroblanco]

Not to ruffle any feathers but I still don't see ANY evidence of any of the Telluride minerals in the Matchbox ore or any other specimen supposed to be from the LDM. It could be a red herring, not calling anyone a liar but people have put out misleading information in the past to mislead other treasure hunters. Not to say that Telluride has never been found in AZ, but as to Telluride found in the Superstitions? I doubt it.

Gold is deposited by water, along with the quartz it is generally found with in the most common examples. The water is in a superheated condition, highly loaded up with dissolved minerals including the gold, which then crystallizes out. The size of the crystals help us determine the depth at which the ore was formed out of the water. The crystallization occurs in voids and cracks in the country rock. Re-melting this would require volcanic temperatures (in excess of 1700 C) and resolidifying would result in a very different type of stone. (Fused quartz, like volcanic glass)

 

[azdave35]

Not to ruffle any feathers but I still don't see ANY evidence of any of the Telluride minerals in the Matchbox ore or any other specimen supposed to be from the LDM. It could be a red herring, not calling anyone a liar but people have put out misleading information in the past to mislead other treasure hunters. Not to say that Telluride has never been found in AZ, but as to Telluride found in the Superstitions? I doubt it.

Gold is deposited by water, along with the quartz it is generally found with in the most common examples. The water is in a superheated condition, highly loaded up with dissolved minerals including the gold, which then crystallizes out. The size of the crystals help us determine the depth at which the ore was formed out of the water. The crystallization occurs in voids and cracks in the country rock. Re-melting this would require volcanic temperatures (in excess of 1700 C) and resolidifying would result in a very different type of stone. (Fused quartz, like volcanic glass)

roy...i agree with your post..but i'm also suspect because i'm very familiar with the method used for the test

 

[markmar]

The secret of the different gold veins ( white quartz and hematite ) so meticulous separated in the ground, is on the clue which says how the mine ( inclined shaft ) is on a terraced terrain.
The fact how on the highest point of those terraces is a mountain wall, shows how there were colaptions ( like melted glacier ) of few layers from the mountain in the cooling of the magma process. I believe the valley was deeper but narrow and the first layer on its fall hits the the other side, cracks, and the cracked fragment at the top flipped on the fallen layer. And after the first fall, followed few other layers colaptions, resulting the image which has today that region.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Yeah, somehow I figured I wouldn't get a straight answer from you. While individual mineral content in a given vein may change from one spot to another, Mesothermal Quartz will be Mesothermal Quartz. It does not change and become Epithermal Quartz. The only way that happens is as Kraig said. If a volcanic/geologic event remelted the quartz and it cooled at a different rate, then its crystalline structure may change..........but if you have a solid 18 inch wide vein of quartz, it will not be Mesothermal at the surface, and then change to Epithermal six feet down. If there were an intrusion through the vein, then THAT intrusion may be of different Crystalline Structure, but not the vein it breaks into.

Mike

I have to admit that from your posts it is not clear what your claim is as to the epi/meso nature of supposed LDM ore.

Would you be so kind as to clear that up for us? Thank you !

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

I understand what you're saying Dave and if you don't believe the matchbox is dutchman ore then everything is a waste of time. But you cannot say the matchbox isn't dutchman ore, no one can say 100 % conclusively, either way.

To let you know, in the comparison testing the matchbox, a ring and a single piece of raw ore was tested. All three matched as coming from the same source.

Somewhere along the line a person has to believe something if they truly want to get to the bottom of things. If you don't believe the ore is genuine and testing is a waste of time, and everyone is lying we might as well all turn our guns in to the bartender and go home.

Dang, if knew there was a bartender here I would have ordered a drink! is there still time before last call? However I will not be turning in my guns ...

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Not to ruffle any feathers but I still don't see ANY evidence of any of the Telluride minerals in the Matchbox ore or any other specimen supposed to be from the LDM. It could be a red herring, not calling anyone a liar but people have put out misleading information in the past to mislead other treasure hunters. Not to say that Telluride has never been found in AZ, but as to Telluride found in the Superstitions? I doubt it.

Think about that ^ ... does that argue that the supposed LDM ORE is from elsewhere than the supes? among the best I've heard ! nice going !

Gold is deposited by water, along with the quartz it is generally found with in the most common examples. The water is in a superheated condition, highly loaded up with dissolved minerals including the gold, which then crystallizes out. The size of the crystals help us determine the depth at which the ore was formed out of the water. The crystallization occurs in voids and cracks in the country rock. Re-melting this would require volcanic temperatures (in excess of 1700 C) and resolidifying would result in a very different type of stone. (Fused quartz, like volcanic glass)

 

[Oroblanco]

I have to admit that from your posts it is not clear what your claim is as to the epi/meso nature of supposed LDM ore.

Would you be so kind as to clear that up for us? Thank you !

Not to speak for Gollum, he is perfectly capable of speaking for himself. However I would beg to differ, the Waltz ore used for the matchbox, cuff links etc I would classify as hypothermal, not meso or epithermal. The crystal size is right ON the dividing line between Meso and Hypothermal types, and one other factor being the ratio of gold to silver. Waltz's ore had a very high ratio of gold to silver, on the order of over 5000 ounces of gold and only 2 ounces of silver per ton. Granted this is almost certainly hand-cobbed and picked specimen not the general run ore, however it is a very high ratio - which is not common for mesothermal type gold ores. Mesothermal gold ores commonly have much more silver per ton.

This also brings up another factor concerning the supposed presence of Telluride minerals in the Waltz ore. For one thing, the various Tellurium minerals are all light in color - white, silvery, or brassy yellow not a dark color as one other member here attempted to say. It is also remarkably soft. The only known assay (we know of) was the one done by Joe Porterie for Dick Holmes. Telluride minerals were fairly well known by the 1890s. Telluride Colorado was named for it as gold telluride was found there, at least by the 1870s. (Correction welcomed) Porterie would have known it and almost certainly would have remarked on it. The ore sold by Waltz in Tucson likewise would have attracted more attention if it contained tellurium minerals in any notable amounts.

ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote

Think about that ^ ... does that argue that the supposed LDM ORE is from elsewhere than the supes? among the best I heard ! nice going !

Nope. I don't see how you are arriving at that conclusion from what I posted. Just ask yourself this - why would Dick Holmes have bothered to send out specimens of ore which he stated came from the candle box of Jacob Waltz to be made into the jewelry and matchbox, if it was not what he said it was? To further throw that distorted logic into the shade, then ask yourself why on Earth would Dick Holmes then have spent the rest of his life hunting for the lost gold mine of Jacob Waltz, then encouraged his son Brownie to do so, if it were not really ore from Waltz's mine? It would not make any sense whatsoever. Your attempts to throw doubts and discourage treasure hunters from seeking it really are missing the whole point. If Dick Holmes did not believe that ore came from Waltz's mine, why bother making it into jewelry, refusing to sell it for a long time, spending his own lifetime hunting for the mine, and then his son as well? Think again.

Still far from convinced there is any tellurium mineral(s) present in the LDM ore.