New site?...with different clue versions?

[Al D]

I believe you are correct. We believe there may be different types(forms) on the same mountain. And I say maybe?

Two new posts on Arcana site. Red Herring and clue 24. And before I get put against the wall and shot there is an error. I made the correction but did not send it to my site guy. The error is I said that Onate's moniker on a rock wall near the lower Colorado basin that is incorrect it is about 150-175 north of the Superstition Mountains. My site guy should correct that shortly. my bad!

I tried to find some photos of gold on your web page but all I saw was request for donations of money

 

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[somehiker]

Very much so, after his research dept. did some looking in Spain.

babymick1

At the Archivo General de Indias in Seville ?
Did they find documents pertaining to the "Stone Maps" ?

 

[wrmickel1]

At the Archivo General de Indias in Seville ?
Did they find documents pertaining to the "Stone Maps" ?

A document pertaining to the Maps. Or a document linked directly to them, A Big No.
As to where they find there research material I stay out of that, to boring for me.

babymick1

 

[Real of Tayopa]

That's TAYOPA type Roy

 

[Oroblanco]

That's TAYOPA type Roy

You see similarities there?

Any news on the book? Haven't made any progress on the Custer thing for several weeks now, got sidetracked with major issues but will get back on it soon. I hope all is well with you, looking forward to reading the second draft of Tayopa!

Coffee mi hermano? I sure need some!

 

[somehiker]

A document pertaining to the Maps. Or a document linked directly to them, A Big No.
As to where they find there research material I stay out of that, to boring for me.

babymick1

Too bad.
Any Spanish colonial-era documentation with links to the stones would, I'm sure, be very interesting.
Especially from Seville.

 

[gollum]

Too bad.
Any Spanish colonial-era documentation with links to the stones would, I'm sure, be very interesting.
Especially from Seville.

IF the Stone Maps were authentic, you would likely NEVER find anything from Seville. I think any references to such things would be from family histories/records or maybe an old newspaper quote. Maybe some family members with no interest in treasure hunting or mining donated old family papers to some museo in Mexico (Arizpe?).

If they were Jesuit, you might find something in either Mission/Church Records or The Jesuit Curia in Rome.

Mike

 

[wrmickel1]

You see similarities there?

Any news on the book? Haven't made any progress on the Custer thing for several weeks now, got sidetracked with major issues but will get back on it soon. I hope all is well with you, looking forward to reading the second draft of Tayopa!

Coffee mi hermano? I sure need some!

Oro

Your writing a book about Custer, Well l hope it’s actuality truth and not The fluffy stuff of fiction that’s already out there. I kindda took you as a Wild Bill type Guy.

But never the less pretty COOL!

babymick1

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro

Your writing a book about Custer, Well l hope it’s actuality truth and not The fluffy stuff of fiction that’s already out there. I kindda took you as a Wild Bill type Guy.

But never the less pretty COOL!

babymick1

Funny you would have said that, I have a photo of Wild Bill Hickok looking at me at the computer. I have his pal Calamity Jane on the opposing wall, so they can "see" each other, and have visited their graves in Deadwood. Wild Bill was actually friends with George Armstrong Custer so it is not so far off the mark. And yes it is truth, which unfortunately will not make many folks happy with me over it. Still need to make another trip to the battlefield, but summer is slipping away and it might have to wait for next year. It is only on original sources too, not based on what some author wrote 100 years later. The truth was there all along, just has been kept from the public!

Apologies for the off-topic drift there. Please do continue;

 

[deducer]

IF the Stone Maps were authentic, you would likely NEVER find anything from Seville. I think any references to such things would be from family histories/records or maybe an old newspaper quote. Maybe some family members with no interest in treasure hunting or mining donated old family papers to some museo in Mexico (Arizpe?).

If they were Jesuit, you might find something in either Mission/Church Records or The Jesuit Curia in Rome.

Mike

Everything of value archive-wise at Arizpe was moved to Ures, then Hermosillo, after the Apache raids between 1831-1849, IIRC.

 

[wrmickel1]

Funny you would have said that, I have a photo of Wild Bill Hickok looking at me at the computer. I have his pal Calamity Jane on the opposing wall, so they can "see" each other, and have visited their graves in Deadwood. Wild Bill was actually friends with George Armstrong Custer so it is not so far off the mark. And yes it is truth, which unfortunately will not make many folks happy with me over it. Still need to make another trip to the battlefield, but summer is slipping away and it might have to wait for next year. It is only on original sources too, not based on what some author wrote 100 years later. The truth was there all along, just has been kept from the public!

Apologies for the off-topic drift there. Please do continue;

Oro Nice,

Did you know that Wild Bill stayed the winter at his sisters place in Yspilanti ND. Left for deadwood that spring on the stagecoach into History.

But anyway nice to have someone write a nonfiction book of Custer. Did you know the only Horse that survived the little big horn was stationed out of Fort Seward in Jamestown ND.

Well if your interested when you go to the battle I could hook you up with my brother Jerry Clark. He dug a lot of sights pertaining to supplying Custers Company till the fatel end. And he could direct you to Museums and Archeologist that believe a different story backed up by evidence.

well let me know

babymick1

 

[somehiker]

IF the Stone Maps were authentic, you would likely NEVER find anything from Seville. I think any references to such things would be from family histories/records or maybe an old newspaper quote. Maybe some family members with no interest in treasure hunting or mining donated old family papers to some museo in Mexico (Arizpe?).

If they were Jesuit, you might find something in either Mission/Church Records or The Jesuit Curia in Rome.

Mike

Dr. Eugene Lyon has had considerable success in locating documented references, including maps, pertaining to "lost" treasures within the collection housed at the biblioteca in Seville . While the stones are not in any way a "map" to something "lost at sea", records of many other endeavors, including maps and references to map making by both Spanish and Indigenous authorities dating back to the mid 1500's are also available at the Archivo General de Indias. Some of the maps mentioned in those earliest records were described by those charged with gathering,sorting and cataloguing the collection as unconventional and therefore of little use in determining the Crown's holdings....or those of the natives in the New World...., and so were not included in what was forwarded to Spain. However, their existence and area to which they referred was part of the official record .
If I were looking to "authenticate" the stone maps, which I'm not btw, those are the records I'd be wanting to get copies of.

 

[wrmickel1]

Oro this His is my brother’s book,

Babymick1

 

[somehiker]

Plenty of good Little Big Horn info :





I was there in 1973 when the gravestones were all desecrated with the letters A.I.M scrawled across them. Back then, you could wander the battlefield with few restrictions.

 

[gollum]

Dr. Eugene Lyon has had considerable success in locating documented references, including maps, pertaining to "lost" treasures within the collection housed at the biblioteca in Seville . While the stones are not in any way a "map" to something "lost at sea", records of many other endeavors, including maps and references to map making by both Spanish and Indigenous authorities dating back to the mid 1500's are also available at the Archivo General de Indias. Some of the maps mentioned in those earliest records were described by those charged with gathering,sorting and cataloguing the collection as unconventional and therefore of little use in determining the Crown's holdings....or those of the natives in the New World...., and so were not included in what was forwarded to Spain. However, their existence and area to which they referred was part of the official record .
If I were looking to "authenticate" the stone maps, which I'm not btw, those are the records I'd be wanting to get copies of.

Like I said, your best bet for authenticating Stone Maps would not be in Seville. I would be scouring through Mission/Church Records, and if you know the families involved.......get on Ancestry.com and start contacting people. The records for a mine up here in the Bradshaws were found in the mission records of San Xavier del Bac. If you want to verify Stone Map Authenticity, go to Arizpe Mission Church. Look at the stones that they used to build the Mission. Since they refaced/changed the mission in (IIRC) about 1908, I would ask if they still had any of the old stonework laying around.

Seville is full of "OFFICIAL" Records. By official, I mean records filed with the crown. If authentic, I would class the Stone Maps as a more local or unofficial. If authentic, WHY would they turn up on the bank of Queen Creek? How did they get there? If you believe Tumlinson's Explanation, he found them placed where they were found.

If you read my old posts, you will see that I can imagine only a few reasons to put maps on rocks. In 99% of all situations, placing maps on paper or hide would be best. Peraltas/Gonzalez Families would not need them. They knew the routes from Sonora to the Supers very well. Even the peons (Waltz and Weiser found two working the mine).

Mike

 

[somehiker]

Like I said, your best bet for authenticating Stone Maps would not be in Seville. I would be scouring through Mission/Church Records, and if you know the families involved.......get on Ancestry.com and start contacting people. The records for a mine up here in the Bradshaws were found in the mission records of San Xavier del Bac. If you want to verify Stone Map Authenticity, go to Arizpe Mission Church. Look at the stones that they used to build the Mission. Since they refaced/changed the mission in (IIRC) about 1908, I would ask if they still had any of the old stonework laying around.

Seville is full of "OFFICIAL" Records. By official, I mean records filed with the crown. If authentic, I would class the Stone Maps as a more local or unofficial. If authentic, WHY would they turn up on the bank of Queen Creek? How did they get there? If you believe Tumlinson's Explanation, he found them placed where they were found.

If you read my old posts, you will see that I can imagine only a few reasons to put maps on rocks. In 99% of all situations, placing maps on paper or hide would be best. Peraltas/Gonzalez Families would not need them. They knew the routes from Sonora to the Supers very well. Even the peons (Waltz and Weiser found two working the mine).

Mike

As I said, I am not looking to authenticate the stone maps.
Not that I'm no longer interested in what they could represent, how they came to be created, when and by whom.
But I can see that we are far apart on those questions, as well as where the answers to some of them might be found.
What I am thinking of would be official and unlikely to be found at Arizpe, or in any church collection on this side of hr Atlantic. So unless Mick can elaborate further on his claim at a later date, I'll not take this any further.

I assume you are referring to Azmula's theory, presented in two parts published in he SMHS journal, which outlined his beliefs as to the connection between the stone maps and Nuestra Señora de la Asunción de Arizpe, as well as the Tumlinson family. If so, I have also taken part in many debates centered around his and many others' research efforts and conclusions. You could review any number of those discussion threads if you wish, should you have any interest as to why I see no reason to link the creator(s) of the stones to Mexican families or their mining operations in the region, and not even perhaps, the Jesuit Order in itself.

 

[arcana-exploration]

As I said, I am not looking to authenticate the stone maps.
Not that I'm no longer interested in what they could represent, how they came to be created, when and by whom.
But I can see that we are far apart on those questions, as well as where the answers to some of them might be found.
What I am thinking of would be official and unlikely to be found at Arizpe, or in any church collection on this side of hr Atlantic. So unless Mick can elaborate further on his claim at a later date, I'll not take this any further.

I assume you are referring to Azmula's theory, presented in two parts published in he SMHS journal, which outlined his beliefs as to the connection between the stone maps and Nuestra Señora de la Asunción de Arizpe, as well as the Tumlinson family. If so, I have also taken part in many debates centered around his and many others' research efforts and conclusions. You could review any number of those discussion threads if you wish, should you have any interest as to why I see no reason to link the creator(s) of the stones to Mexican families or their mining operations in the region, and not even perhaps, the Jesuit Order in itself.

Wayne whoever made the stones is secondary. How they came by the information contained on the stones we may never know. The ones who did the stones, may in fact not have really known what the information meant themselves. I am confident the origanal source was the most likely an old map. WE have reason to believe it was very early Jesuits. But the Jesuits did not do the stones. IMO WE have something that links to information. So in a sense, the Stones are important, but only as a messenger.

 

[azdave35]

Wayne whoever made the stones is secondary. How they came by the information contained on the stones we may never know. The ones who did the stones, may in fact not have really known what the information meant themselves. I am confident the origanal source was the most likely an old map. WE have reason to believe it was very early Jesuits. But the Jesuits did not do the stones. IMO WE have something that links to information. So in a sense, the Stones are important, but only as a messenger.

those stones were made in the 20th century by a white man..that has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt

 

[gollum]

those stones were made in the 20th century by a white man..that has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt

HAHAHA Not "beyond a shadow of a doubt"! I think Travis did carve them, but nobody can say with 100% certainty that he did. I'll give you a few things to ponder:

1. Why would the family say that they saw Travis carving the stones?
a. Maybe they are tired of getting phone calls, knocks on the door, and rogue emails every time the subject gets some action. Easiest way to get people to leave you alone is to say that We saw Travis carve the stones. They are fakes.
b. Travis said on several occasions that he added things to the Stone Maps in case somebody stole them. Maybe THAT is what the family saw him carving?

I would have still thought it more likely that Travis found them than carved them, until we found out about all his previous stone carvings. THAT pushed me over the fence on the subject. Even though I can't say 100% he did it, I now think it is far more likely he did it than didn't.

Also, look at the actions of Travis:

a. He said he found the stone maps by Florence Junction. Okay, if he really hoaxed them, why would he tell his UNCLE ROBERT that lie and draw him a map showing where he found them? His poor Uncle Robert even had possession of the Stone Maps for a few years when Travis was first diagnosed with cancer. How screwed up would Travis be to let his uncle believe a lie like that? Once Travis knew he had cancer (beating cancer was much more of a rarity in the 1950s than today), why would he not tell his uncle believing he was not too far from death?

b. When Dick Peck was investigating the Stone Maps in 1965, his investigator (Elbert Love) spoke to one of Travis' good friends from Hood River, Oregon (don't remember his name). This guy said that every night Travis would bring out the upper and lower trail map stones. He said Travis would sit and stare at the lower trail map stone, stick his finger in the big hole and say over and over "If I could only figure out where that is, I would be a millionaire!"

c. In his lifetime of possessing the Stone Maps (1949-1961). He never attempted to sell them. He kept them mostly a secret. He made several trips into the mountains to try and solve the Stone Maps (his description).

d. And lets not forget his daughter Janie who told me "My dad was absolutely never part of any hoax!"

Put all those actions together, and ask yourself if those were the actions of a man who hoaxed the Stone Maps? Not to me.

So, when it comes to the Stone Maps, we have a quandary!

1. We have a crap-ton of circumstantial evidence that would make most rational people tend to believe Travis made the Stone Maps himself.

2. We have all of Travis' actions that scream he did not hoax the stone maps, and he believed they were authentic.

3. We have the Stone Maps themselves. Whoever carved them had a good working knowledge of the Superstition Mountain Area. How well did Travis know the area, or did he have some help that nobody has found out about yet?

4. Since Travis' Grandfather was John "Pegleg" Tumlinson (treasure hunter of the late 1800s and early 1900s, could Travis have used an authentic map of his grandfathers as a stencil to make the Stone Maps? If that were true, then even if he made them in the 1940s, they would still be authentic "in a way".

Who knows?

Mike

PS

........and after Travis died, his wife Aileen had possession of the Stone Maps. Did Travis tell his soon to be widow on his death bed that he made the Stone Maps and they were fakes? NOPE! He let his poor wife think they were authentic when he died. She sold them to Clarence O. Mitchell as authentic. We know this because Mitchell kept their existence a secret from most people from 1961 - 1964. He made several trips into the Supers to try and solve them. He gave up after a few years and decided to try and make money off of them a different way. He sold the story to life magazine, evidently hoping the publicity would raise their value. We know this because we have the letter where Mitchell offered to sell them to Dick Peck for $200,000 the year after the Life Magazine Article.

PSS

Did Aileen Tumlinson tell anybody they were fakes? NOPE! She died shortly after Travis and took this foul secret to her grave! Unless she thought they were authentic!?! Why would two people (Travis and Aileen) do such a foul thing as go to their graves without telling SOMEONE/ANYONE that the Stone Maps were fakes? They would have had to have been pretty foul people to do such a thing! Funny though, the people that knew them best all thought very highly of both of them.

Like I said......A QUANDARY! LOL

 

[azdave35]

HAHAHA Not "beyond a shadow of a doubt"! I think Travis did carve them, but nobody can say with 100% certainty that he did. I'll give you a few things to ponder:

1. Why would the family say that they saw Travis carving the stones?
a. Maybe they are tired of getting phone calls, knocks on the door, and rogue emails every time the subject gets some action. Easiest way to get people to leave you alone is to say that We saw Travis carve the stones. They are fakes.
b. Travis said on several occasions that he added things to the Stone Maps in case somebody stole them. Maybe THAT is what the family saw him carving?

I would have still thought it more likely that Travis found them than carved them, until we found out about all his previous stone carvings. THAT pushed me over the fence on the subject. Even though I can't say 100% he did it, I now think it is far more likely he did it than didn't.

Also, look at the actions of Travis:

a. He said he found the stone maps by Florence Junction. Okay, if he really hoaxed them, why would he tell his UNCLE ROBERT that lie and draw him a map showing where he found them? His poor Uncle Robert even had possession of the Stone Maps for a few years when Travis was first diagnosed with cancer. How screwed up would Travis be to let his uncle believe a lie like that? Once Travis knew he had cancer (beating cancer was much more of a rarity in the 1950s than today), why would he not tell his uncle believing he was not too far from death?

b. When Dick Peck was investigating the Stone Maps in 1965, his investigator (Elbert Love) spoke to one of Travis' good friends from Hood River, Oregon (don't remember his name). This guy said that every night Travis would bring out the upper and lower trail map stones. He said Travis would sit and stare at the lower trail map stone, stick his finger in the big hole and say over and over "If I could only figure out where that is, I would be a millionaire!"

c. In his lifetime of possessing the Stone Maps (1949-1961). He never attempted to sell them. He kept them mostly a secret. He made several trips into the mountains to try and solve the Stone Maps (his description).

d. And lets not forget his daughter Janie who told me "My dad was absolutely never part of any hoax!"

Put all those actions together, and ask yourself if those were the actions of a man who hoaxed the Stone Maps? Not to me.

So, when it comes to the Stone Maps, we have a quandary!

1. We have a crap-ton of circumstantial evidence that would make most rational people tend to believe Travis made the Stone Maps himself.

2. We have all of Travis' actions that scream he did not hoax the stone maps, and he believed they were authentic.

3. We have the Stone Maps themselves. Whoever carved them had a good working knowledge of the Superstition Mountain Area. How well did Travis know the area, or did he have some help that nobody has found out about yet?

4. Since Travis' Grandfather was John "Pegleg" Tumlinson (treasure hunter of the late 1800s and early 1900s, could Travis have used an authentic map of his grandfathers as a stencil to make the Stone Maps? If that were true, then even if he made them in the 1940s, they would still be authentic "in a way".

Who knows?

Mike

mike..way to much to process..you just scrambled my pea brain....if the family didn't want anyone bugging them then why did rg live out there with them for two years?....i go by what other people that were with rg told me...also what other family members told me...travis's nephew told me face to face in my living room that everyone in the family knows travis carved the stone maps...i have another little twist to the saga...a guy that lives a couple miles from me has a stone map that his father found out by queen valley...i have seen the map..so has tom k. it doesn't look anything like the stone maps at the museum...its half the size of them...and its a dark reddish stone....chew on that for a while