new show on the dutchman

[chlsbrns]

Wow - aren't you the one who constantly asks for verifiable facts from everyone? So could you explain exactly what verifiable facts you have and can provide that without question backs up that story you're calling a fact?

You do know that over the years there have more than a small handful of people who've claimed they are the REAL relatives of the Jacob Waltz of DLM fame? Maybe one of them is, but they can't all be and none of them can prove it except by word of mouth passed down through the family - not exactly what I would consider to be verifiable fact.

It seems that asking for facts brings out the worst in those who believe in dreams and fairy tales.

I requested a fact any fact due to this post:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/447362-new-show-dutchman-41.html#post4412951

Such hostility! I guess because it's a four letter word?

Have you ever heard of ancestry records?

I've posted historical records verifying that many of the posters I think and I believe statements are incorrect. No one has replied to the historical facts? Why? Is it because they dont like four letter words such as "fact" Is it because they didn't bother to even read the historical records? Why? Fear of the four letter word? They don't want to know the truth?

I shouldn't be wasting my time looking for facts. Facts all seem to disprove so no one wants facts.

 

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[johnmark29020]

You know what's funny, just from what little I've read on the matter, I don't think the LDM (if there is one) is in any of the areas most people think it is. I think it's in the Cave Creek area. Good luck on your quest. Videos are always good to post when you're outdoors and prospecting. I'm not being harsh to the guys on the show. They're getting out and doing something, which is more than I can say for most people. Always amazes me when I head out to the boonies. I'm no more than 50 miles from town and yet I never see a single soul all day long. You'd think with the Valley having a population of 6 million people and gold still relatively worth something, there would be people crawling the hills. I'm getting ready to head out as we speak. Hopefully I'll find my own LDM.

Im not on the show. I know one through Facebook and general coversation here on tnet.
Many people have been hateful toward them for doing the show. Instead of enjoying the show for entertainment value. They have been picking the show apart,and the guys as well. When anyone of them would have done it given the chance. So my comment wasnt to you .
It was a general statement for them. Sorry if it sounded like I was specifically talking to you.

I think the ldm is in a abandoned mining site that starts just above superior and go to red mountain. I believe thats why waltzs was being so specific. If you look close at the direction you will see him gicing three or more land marks. Kinda like sending someone to the 7-11. You might say the one next to the candy store north of the church. See what I mean.
Ive read first hand accounts of hunters who claim they found the mine. The more modern accounts. There is a pattern.
What Im filming next week is to try and get the land protected from the large money corporate mining. There are things only a few have seen that need to be protected.
Here a tip for seeing what waltz said vs what people say he said.
Waltzs was military trained college educated smart mouth. He knew he was smarter or atleast more educated.
He knew he could tell them exactly where it was if he used word that had double meanings. They didnt believe he had a mine,even today people say he stole the gold. That made him mad,so when he would get drunk. They would start in own him. He used his smarts to answer their question .so look for intelligent smart ass statements. Thats waltzs. The opey taylor country style is not him.
Thats was my process anyway.

 

[UncleMatt]

You won't find pure Gold anywhere for that matter

The gold taken from the Red Arrow mine in Colorado was so pure it was taken straight to the mint. Much of it was in the form of gold cube crystals. But in general I agree with you 100%!

 

[Cubfan64]

It seems that asking for facts brings out the worst in those who believe in dreams and fairy tales.

I requested a fact any fact due to this post:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/447362-new-show-dutchman-41.html#post4412951

Such hostility! I guess because it's a four letter word?

Have you ever heard of ancestry records?

I've posted historical records verifying that many of the posters I think and I believe statements are incorrect. No one has replied to the historical facts? Why? Is it because they dont like four letter words such as "fact" Is it because they didn't bother to even read the historical records? Why? Fear of the four letter word? They don't want to know the truth?

I shouldn't be wasting my time looking for facts. Facts all seem to disprove so no one wants facts.

I think it would be fantastic to see some facts related to the ancestry of the Jacob Waltz of DLM legend, but of all the times people claim to have them, when asked to see something there's either some "secrecy" involved that precludes sharing them publicly, or it turns out the "facts" are really nothing more than the same hearsay that surrounds most of the legend, or in cases like this the question gets turned around back on the requester in such a way as to imply that "the evidence is out there, just go look for it yourself and you really aren't interested in facts anyways" in some feigned outrage.

It happens time and time again and never seems to change.

If you have some verifiable proof of Waltz's ancestry that would be fascinating and would be a new interesting link to research - I'm sure most of us would love to see that verifiable evidence. Still waiting....

 

[johnmark29020]

It seems that asking for facts brings out the worst in those who believe in dreams and fairy tales.

I requested a fact any fact due to this post:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/447362-new-show-dutchman-41.html#post4412951

Such hostility! I guess because it's a four letter word?

Have you ever heard of ancestry records?

I've posted historical records verifying that many of the posters I think and I believe statements are incorrect. No one has replied to the historical facts? Why? Is it because they dont like four letter words such as "fact" Is it because they didn't bother to even read the historical records? Why? Fear of the four letter word? They don't want to know the truth?

I shouldn't be wasting my time looking for facts. Facts all seem to disprove so no one wants facts.

Its because historical facts are wrong more than right. Historical facts says my granfather was a farmer. When in reality he was one of the best moon shiners in the south. When the say nascar was based on crazy moonshiners. Hes one of them.
Just because its historical,and official doesnt make it right. Show me somthing that backs up you records.
Thats why. Its not that we dont like you or respect the work you have put into it.
Its just experience.
There was a mine up north abandoned because of indian attacks. That mine is on what I think is red mountain. There is a very good book about the man who found it. He also thinks its the ldm. He might be right.

 

[JackH]

Its because historical facts are wrong more than right. Historical facts says my granfather was a farmer. When in reality he was one of the best moon shiners in the south. When the say nascar was based on crazy moonshiners. Hes one of them.
Just because its historical,and official doesnt make it right. Show me somthing that backs up you records.
Thats why. Its not that we dont like you or respect the work you have put into it.
Its just experience.
There was a mine up north abandoned because of indian attacks. That mine is on what I think is red mountain. There is a very good book about the man who found it. He also thinks its the ldm. He might be right.

I have to laugh. I liked what you said pegged it, and then I read the Red Mountain thing.

 

[chlsbrns]

Its because historical facts are wrong more than right. Historical facts says my granfather was a farmer. When in reality he was one of the best moon shiners in the south. When the say nascar was based on crazy moonshiners. Hes one of them.
Just because its historical,and official doesnt make it right. Show me somthing that backs up you records.
Thats why. Its not that we dont like you or respect the work you have put into it.
Its just experience.
There was a mine up north abandoned because of indian attacks. That mine is on what I think is red mountain. There is a very good book about the man who found it. He also thinks its the ldm. He might be right.

I tend to believe history books more than what people think or believe.

If I was a moonshiner and had to show income for tax purposes I certainly would not say that I was a moonshiner.

Im not going to post ancestry records that show names in a public forum. Once you have a name and other info it is very easy to get phone numbers. People will call just like I am going to call. I wouldn't be surprised if others have already called.

If it was me and people were calling I would be pissed!

As far as a large deposit being north of the river I said it was the salt river. I was mistaken. It says gila river.

 

[johnmark29020]

I have to laugh. I liked what you said pegged it, and then I read the Red Mountain thing.

Yea the red mountain thing. I foget who wrote it but he live in Australia now. I think.
That was one long and hard to believe.
Still he claim the ldm was on reservation land. He said the left side of the perfil map was looking north and the right side of the map was the same moutain looking south.
I only mentioned him because they keeped talking about a abandoned mine due to indian attack. If I can find the link.
Ill post it here,but I think it call red mountain. I think.

 

[Aric]

The only real facts that are known to me are these clues. The setting sun shines on my mine, (I would have to say the mine would have to face the west).
From my mine I can see the military trail, but you can't see my mine from the military trail.
To the south I can see a pointed rock, (this has to be Weavers Needle).

 

[johnmark29020]

I tend to believe history books more than what people think or believe.

If I was a moonshiner and had to show income for tax purposes I certainly would not say that I was a moonshiner.

Im not going to post ancestry records that show names in a public forum. Once you have a name and other info it is very easy to get phone numbers. People will call just like I am going to call. I wouldn't be surprised if others have already called.

If it was me and people were calling I would be pissed!

As far as a large deposit being north of the river I said it was the salt river. I was mistaken. It says gila river.

Here the what you are not accounting for
Human error and lying. The historical documents made by the under paid worker will take the easiest route to getting the job done.

I agree with you. If you can get historical information do it, but dont rely just on the docs. Go listen to the first hand accounts.
The family stories. See what you can confirn. What doesnt seem right. See what the two put together tell you. Yes someone is always holding back. Yes its a pain in the ass. Think about the players in the legend. Walts killer, thief. Holmes, stalker,want to be claim jumper. Pippin steals gold every time waltzs leaves.
They have plenty of reason to be careful.
If you like this project. Do the research, and earn their respect. They will let you in.

Who are you going to call.

 

[Azquester]

One thing about the treasure symbol system, It was not wildly understood or used by just anyone before the 1900's. If they date to 1847 or earlier, then only a few people in the area would have had the understanding to make them. So, if they predate 1900, then chances are that the artist was someone or caved under the direction of someone very important. A Jesuit, a Peralta. Point being that the suspects are extremely limited.

After 1900, the door opens and it could be anyone with a creative flair, imagination, and a little lesson in history. DeGrazia? Perhaps, Tumlinson? Could be. Halseth? Only if it's an aerial overlay. The list is endless because the system was available in print.

The only real way to wrap things up is to have the stones professionally and independently dated. That was once done by a professional archeology group, again by Polzer with disappointing results (for some). It needs to be done again.

I am not so sure about his Majesties Witch. Seems like he would have been a target for the church, just by the name alone. Was this actually a title? It is a fascinating idea but where is the proof?

Hi Hal,

They are the same Jesuit's that Gollum speaks of just practicing the Darker side of the force. Those Jesuit Witches knew free masonry and practiced black magic rituals with their free masonry. I can show you some Witch campsites like the Western Wolf if you like. The final site I'm only showing to Wayne if he would like to see it. In a nutshell it's a solar, rock, landscape based system using De Re Metallica as the back drop. Slaves lots of slaves. In the pictures I have you we see a Black Magic circle, several wolves, and a freemason's head in the circle with a cartoon wolf above and to the right of his head, El Tio with an angry wolf looking at him. Also an effigy of the old Witch himself in the first photo dead center zoom in and say hello to the old dude. Your going to be looking at three or four types of systems which they used called infinity at the same time so the wolf in one place is a rock carving, El tio, black moss or black lichen, The Witch is in black moss but the witches chin uses shadow.

You'll have to look hard to see it or maybe back up or zoom in the photo for a peek.

View attachment 1125205
Witches Head above center black wolves head underneath looks like a pig to me but I guess their art wasn't that great and since it's an abstract system getting close is all that matters!

View attachment 1125213
Wolf and Satan



View attachment 1125214
Look at the black dots it makes a matrix of the images. A freemasons head, A wolf and hearts all in dot matrix. Beside it you'll see the legs of a walker all abstracts so don't get in a bunch over their art work it looks like old Ted DeGrazia.



View attachment 1125215

Wolves Head

 

[johnmark29020]

The only real facts that are known to me are these clues. The setting sun shines on my mine, (I would have to say the mine would have to face the west).
From my mine I can see the military trail,
but you can't see my mine from the military trail.
To the south I can see a pointed rock, (this has to be Weavers Needle).

He said the setting sun shines through a hole the mountain a shined on his gold . So the mine could be facing north. Could

He can see the military trail because hes high enough to have a clear view,but hes some distance away.
They cant see him because their angle is somewhat block they dont have the clear view waltzs did,and he some distance away.

Why does the pointed rock have to be weaver needle. Why cant it be miners needle,or a pointed rock on a hill.


I love these clues because even though they are the best. They have so many interpretations.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hi Hal,

They are the same Jesuit's that Gollum speaks of just practicing the Darker side of the force. Those Jesuit Witches knew free masonry and practiced black magic rituals with their free masonry. I can show you some Witch campsites like the Western Wolf if you like. The final site I'm only showing to Wayne if he would like to see it. In a nutshell it's a solar, rock, landscape based system using De Re Metallica as the back drop. Slaves lots of slaves. In the pictures I have you we see a Black Magic circle, several wolves, and a freemason's head in the circle with a cartoon wolf above and to the right of his head, El Tio with an angry wolf looking at him. Also an effigy of the old Witch himself in the first photo dead center zoom in and say hello to the old dude. Your going to be looking at three or four types of systems which they used called infinity at the same time so the wolf in one place is a rock carving, El tio, black moss or black lichen, The Witch is in black moss but the witches chin uses shadow.

You'll have to look hard to see it or maybe back up or zoom in the photo for a peek.

View attachment 1125205
Witches Head above center black wolves head underneath looks like a pig to me but I guess their art wasn't that great and since it's an abstract system getting close is all that matters!

View attachment 1125213
Wolf and Satan



View attachment 1125214
Look at the black dots it makes a matrix of the images. A freemasons head, A wolf and hearts all in dot matrix. Beside it you'll see the legs of a walker all abstracts so don't get in a bunch over their art work it looks like old Ted DeGrazia.



View attachment 1125215

Wolves Head

I am not seeing the things that you are describing. Not saying it's not there just can't see it.
So, if I understand you, his Majesties Witches are Jesuit Freemasons and they hid the mines with ritual ceremony.
Then they made the maps?

 

[Aric]

He said the setting sun shines through a hole the mountain a shined on his gold . So the mine could be facing north. Could

He can see the military trail because hes high enough to have a clear view,but hes some distance away.
They cant see him because their angle is somewhat block they dont have the clear view waltzs did,and he some distance away.

Why does the pointed rock have to be weaver needle. Why cant it be miners needle,or a pointed rock on a hill.


I love these clues because even though they are the best. They have so many interpretations.

I don't think miners needle tall enough, 3648 ft . I think it could only be Weavers Needle, 4553 feet.

 

[johnmark29020]

I don't think miners needle tall enough, 3648 ft . I think it could only be Weavers Needle, 4553 feet.[/QUOTE]

You might be right who knows for sure.
Its will be fun when it gets solved.

 

[Rick4570]

What Im filming next week is to try and get the land protected from the large money corporate mining. There are things only a few have seen that need to be protected

i read a couple of months back that John McCain helped sponsor a bill which is allowing a Austrailian mining outfit which is owned by a British copreration to start mining in the Tonto National Forrest is not the SWA in the Tonto National Forrest?
Rick

 

[Rick4570]

Congress Approves Secret Giveaway Of Sacred Apache Land To Foreign Mining Company

 

[Aric]

Congress Approves Secret Giveaway Of Sacred Apache Land To Foreign Mining Company

Another example of the government over reaching. Some person or person's had better find this mine before some foreign mining company does. I think this is why they put the wilderness on the protected list, they know what's in there.

 

[Hal Croves]

Another example of the government over reaching. Some person or person's had better find this mine before some foreign mining company does. I think this is why they put the wilderness on the protected list, they know what's in there.

Thats a big assumption. I don't disagree with you but what proof do you have? The SWA was enlarged several times and finally defined in 1984. If you really believe this, it is logical to assume that you can trace back those who defined the area and learn their reasons for doing so. That would be meat-on-the-bone and who knows where it will take you.

 

[Azquester]

The Maps were only used as a guide. Abstracts. The Terrain dictated how when and where they put their ground Maps. But if you know the pieces used by the Stone Maps you can figure out how this fits together. Dutchman Mine had to be one of the few mines hidden by this. I can enhance the images and show you what I'm talking about but like I said it's a few types of systems put together to make images that maybe only a Witch Mason would see. Bottom line is they were using natural ways to transfer these Black Magic images into the terrain unleashing all sorts of Demon's upon anyone trying to get rich quick.

I'll enhance them now and stick them back up.

Bill

Well crap, I thought I would but those photo's are on my home computer and I'm at work now. I'll do it tonight after work.

Let me show one of the "A" ground Maps for now. I sent some of these to myself so I could show these on here but the other ones weren't on my stand alone drive they were in my computer's drive.

This stone they dragged into place as an "Alpha". It came from the other side of the mountain. Just Remember these aren't dramatic signs or symbols they're natural parts of the environment used as points and places of interest. Your not going to see much.

The only thing that's worth seeing in this whole system is the final measurement at the burial site.
View attachment 1125275



View attachment 1125280 View attachment 1125287

This is a Free Mason's head with a small mustache the nose is a carved Horse Head.
I believe I sent Randy Wright these photo's years ago.