new show on the dutchman

[gollum]

So how did they hide their trails from carrying off all their tailings? Me thinks some of you guys really need to take a visit to the Supers (or other equally rough country) and see for yourselves just how easy it is to get around whether your on horseback, mule, or foot. Me thinks you'll find that it's not as easy as all the myths and legends would have you believe. I guarantee you, when you're deep in the hills, it's slow going. I don't care how sure footed you or your horse/mule may be. What may take you a couple hours to cover on level ground can take all day in the hills. So pardon me if I find some of these stories hard to believe. Of course it's all Western Folklore, so naturally everything is going to get blown way out of proportion. The tenderfoots back east had to have something to read and fantasize about.

AZ,

I have hiked into the the Supers many times. I usually go in from either Fish Creek or Tortilla Flats. Most of my time there was to the Peter's Mesa, Black Mountain, Tortilla Mountain areas. I usually off trail hike. I agree that much of off trail hiking is boulder hopping and brush popping (and dodging the occasional rattlesnake). Lots of very interesting things in that area.

.....and yes. I know for a fact that Spanish/Mexican Miners carried off or hid their tailings. They could not work the mines in the far North year round, so they had to conceal them between visits. Hard to conceal the location of a mine with a big waterfall of lighter colored rock showering down the hillside.

You might also want to Google "LDM Pit Mine". There was a bit of discussion here about it, but a LOT on Feldman's Old LDM Forum. The Pit Mine is in a REALLY nasty area. Not hard to find, but nasty. Someone still managed for three years in the summer months to work out a very deep pit mine, hide the tailings, and make off with ...................... SOMETHING. Some of the people that worked it stated they thought it was the LDM. So, it wasn't lead they were digging.

Mike

 

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[wrmickel1]

The so called ldm, so called peralta stones are based on I believe, I think, I assume, ect. Everything except facts.

Waltz fathered a child in 1876. Thats a fact! Its not something that I think or believe! I have found a few phone numbers. One of them could belong to his great grandson. I'll certainly call and find out.

If you state that's a fact, Would you not been in contact with this teacher already and proved it. But only now your thinking about calling them. So the cart before the horse theory huh. Just shows your full of theory up to your eyeballs.

As always when your cornered in a lie, no cred' Wrmickel1

 

[chlsbrns]

If you state that's a fact, Would you not been in contact with this teacher already and proved it. But only now your thinking about calling them. So the cart before the horse theory huh. Just shows your full of theory up to your eyeballs.

As always when your cornered in a lie, no cred' Wrmickel1

Hummm... I just found the info tonight!

 

[chlsbrns]

I would really like it if anyone posts any verifiable significant info on the ldm or peralta stones.

Verifiable meaning it can be verified and is not a so and so said or part of a story.

I wont hold my breath!

 

[wrmickel1]

Hummm... I just found the info tonight!

Well I must say how convincingly is that, Well post your findings on that when your done super sluicing the info.

Wrmickel1

 

[johnmark29020]

I DID read it. In the entire book, there are a total of four pages mentioning PERALTA. Two pages (398-399) are about James Reavis, one page (698) is about the town called Peralta in NM, and one page (158) about Governor Peralta (1608) of New Mexico, ooooorrrrrrrrr maybe I missed something?

Other than verbal family history, there is not one document that puts the Peralta/Gonzalez Families in the Superstition Mountains.

I am also in complete agreement with Wrmickel1. If Waltz had a Hopi wife and a son, then why didn't he, IN THE ENTIRE EIGHT MONTHS he was bedridden in Julia Thomas' Place, EVER MENTION TO ANYONE that he had a son or a wife? Why didn't he make sure that the candlebox ore went to his family? Sorry, I don't buy it for a second. Not one credible witness has ever stated anything about a Hopi wife and son.

Mike

Its been generally accepted that dick holmes wanted the mine. It is possible the death bed confession was waltzs asking for help getting the info to his son. Then they decided to keep it for themselves.
Then again a indian woman was supposed to have shown the mine to waltzs. So if he had a son. Momy could've showed it to the son.

 

[vor]

T
.....and yes. I know for a fact that Spanish/Mexican Miners carried off or hid their tailings.

Mike

Wow. You look good for your age.
V

 

[wrmickel1]

I would really like it if anyone posts any verifiable significant info on the ldm or peralta stones.

Verifiable meaning it can be verified and is not a so and so said or part of a story.

I wont hold my breath!

Dude your missing the whole point, there all legends, There's not much of it based on solid facts. All the real players are dead now.
Hell even Waltz's head stone not original

Wrmickel1.

 

[azblackbird]

Hard to conceal the location of a mine with a big waterfall of lighter colored rock showering down the hillside.

Yep, and it's also hard to conceal a mine when you have trails going to and from it from every which way. If in fact they did haul off their tailings, I'd venture to guess we're not talking about a whole lot of dirt. I think some here are so overwhelmed by the legend and the myths, that they fail to see the actual logistics involved in what a mining operation entails. Especially one in rugged country such as the Supers. I have no doubt there are a few veins poking out here and there in the Supers that a few lucky prospectors may have stumbled across. But as far as the general area goes, there just wasn't all that much activity back in the day like there were in other areas of AZ. Which leads me to believe that the area wasn't worth mining, at least on a commercial scale like the other more well known districts that surround the Supers.

 

[wrmickel1]

Yep, and it's also hard to conceal a mine when you have trails going to and from it from every which way. If in fact they did haul off their tailings, I'd venture to guess we're not talking about a whole lot of dirt. I think some here are so overwhelmed by the legend and the myths, that they fail to see the actual logistics involved in what a mining operation entails. Especially one in rugged country such as the Supers. I have no doubt there are a few veins poking out here and there in the Supers that a few lucky prospectors may have stumbled across. But as far as the general area goes, there just wasn't all that much activity back in the day like there were in other areas of AZ. Which leads me to believe that the area wasn't worth mining, at least on a commercial scale like the other more well known districts that surround the Supers.

Maybe not, but even a few bucks a day back then was more then you could earn. Life then was live off the land not work for someone.

Wrmickel1

 

[chlsbrns]

Hello "Cls"
Looking forward to you posting the results of this research. Would you mind passing along the source of this fact?

Anyway, always good to see you posting. Sure to stir up some "stuff".

Hope all is well. And that you settled in a warmer climate.
V



Can you cite the source of these statements? Or are they just "common knowledge"?

You are that guy from the saxon thread? Pa wasnt it?

 

[johnmark29020]

Yep, and it's also hard to conceal a mine when you have trails going to and from it from every which way. If in fact they did haul off their tailings, I'd venture to guess we're not talking about a whole lot of dirt. I think some here are so overwhelmed by the legend and the myths, that they fail to see the actual logistics involved in what a mining operation entails. Especially one in rugged country such as the Supers. I have no doubt there are a few veins poking out here and there in the Supers that a few lucky prospectors may have stumbled across. But as far as the general area goes, there just wasn't all that much activity back in the day like there were in other areas of AZ. Which leads me to believe that the area wasn't worth mining, at least on a commercial scale like the other more well known districts that surround the Supers.

The ldm isnt in the sups. Its above superior on the east side. The sups are barren. I believe waltzs had a mine,and those of his generation new it. I think he used the same trails as other miners. He told dick there is a rock that looks like a man. This is where I get off the trail. Read the interviews of the old miners in the home. They try to tell where it was. The problem is no one is listening. I followed walts directions and found most of the clues. In going next week and film what I found. I cant say its the ldm,but I will be able to show many cool things. Im going to post some of the film here. Everything is in the direction. All you have to do is allow for a language barrer. I say thats cool. To my father that cool meant something else. There is alot of that in waltzs direction.

On a different note. Alot of people have been harsh to the guys in the show. I think they where smart to do the show.
I always heard find away to make money doing what you love. Then you will never work a day in your life. Also the ldm was fading a bit in popularity. Thanks to the show more and more people are listening.
So for you guys who are writing books. This show will help sales. I say good for them.

 

[chlsbrns]

Dude your missing the whole point, there all legends, There's not much of it based on solid facts. All the real players are dead now.
Hell even Waltz's head stone not original

Wrmickel1.

"Not much" implies that there are verifiable facts. I think you meant to say not any.

 

[vor]

-

You are that guy from the saxon thread? Pa wasnt it?

Nah. That guy was banned under a couple of different handles. I heard some developers found a burial mound in his old back yard. I think it was near a swimming pool.
V

 

[azblackbird]

The ldm isnt in the sups. Its above superior on the east side. The sups are barren. I believe waltzs had a mine,and those of his generation new it. I think he used the same trails as other miners. He told dick there is a rock that looks like a man. This is where I get off the trail. Read the interviews of the old miners in the home. They try to tell where it was. The problem is no one is listening. I followed walts directions and found most of the clues. In going next week and film what I found. I cant say its the ldm,but I will be able to show many cool things. Im going to post some of the film here. Everything is in the direction. All you have to do is allow for a language barrer. I say thats cool. To my father that cool meant something else. There is alot of that in waltzs direction.

On a different note. Alot of people have been harsh to the guys in the show. I think they where smart to do the show.
I always heard find away to make money doing what you love. Then you will never work a day in your life. Also the ldm was fading a bit in popularity. Thanks to the show more and more people are listening.
So for you guys who are writing books. This show will help sales. I say good for them.

You know what's funny, just from what little I've read on the matter, I don't think the LDM (if there is one) is in any of the areas most people think it is. I think it's in the Cave Creek area. Good luck on your quest. Videos are always good to post when you're outdoors and prospecting. I'm not being harsh to the guys on the show. They're getting out and doing something, which is more than I can say for most people. Always amazes me when I head out to the boonies. I'm no more than 50 miles from town and yet I never see a single soul all day long. You'd think with the Valley having a population of 6 million people and gold still relatively worth something, there would be people crawling the hills. I'm getting ready to head out as we speak. Hopefully I'll find my own LDM.

 

[Azquester]

What would you call that system?
What is his Majesties Witch? I have never heard of one.

Great to speak with you Hal,

I've watched your posts for quite sometime and your quite a master of information.

HORSE

The system was called HORSE / Caballo, whatever.

The stone Witch Map is broke down into sections the "A" Maps from the Witches Hat was used for one purpose, the Horse another, Hands, Cross, Etc.

Those guys would drag huge stones into place for the ground Map system at the Gold Mining sites. When you find a Witches campsite they liked to insert themselves into the background beside the Magic they placed around the area that would ward off any trespasser's of his Majesty's Gold. Anything to scare the hell out of people of that time frame.

Best,

Bill

 

[Hal Croves]

One thing about the treasure symbol system, It was not wildly understood or used by just anyone before the 1900's. If they date to 1847 or earlier, then only a few people in the area would have had the understanding to make them. So, if they predate 1900, then chances are that the artist was someone or caved under the direction of someone very important. A Jesuit, a Peralta. Point being that the suspects are extremely limited.

After 1900, the door opens and it could be anyone with a creative flair, imagination, and a little lesson in history. DeGrazia? Perhaps, Tumlinson? Could be. Halseth? Only if it's an aerial overlay. The list is endless because the system was available in print.

The only real way to wrap things up is to have the stones professionally and independently dated. That was once done by a professional archeology group, again by Polzer with disappointing results (for some). It needs to be done again.

I am not so sure about his Majesties Witch. Seems like he would have been a target for the church, just by the name alone. Was this actually a title? It is a fascinating idea but where is the proof?

 

[JackH]

I DID read it. In the entire book, there are a total of four pages mentioning PERALTA. Two pages (398-399) are about James Reavis, one page (698) is about the town called Peralta in NM, and one page (158) about Governor Peralta (1608) of New Mexico, ooooorrrrrrrrr maybe I missed something?

Other than verbal family history, there is not one document that puts the Peralta/Gonzalez Families in the Superstition Mountains.

I am also in complete agreement with Wrmickel1. If Waltz had a Hopi wife and a son, then why didn't he, IN THE ENTIRE EIGHT MONTHS he was bedridden in Julia Thomas' Place, EVER MENTION TO ANYONE that he had a son or a wife? Why didn't he make sure that the candlebox ore went to his family? Sorry, I don't buy it for a second. Not one credible witness has ever stated anything about a Hopi wife and son.

Mike

Other than verbal family history, there is not one document that puts the Peralta/Gonzalez Families in the Superstition Mountains.

1) The Spanish were not broadcasting their intentions since 1520'S ? establishing Santa Fe.

2) Which Peralta the Spaniard or the Mexican (by birth) ?

3) Peralta Maps ? Are they Document enough ?

4) I have always felt the (stone) Trail Map shows the most used entrance by the Peralta's
into the interior.

5) E. Peralta Rd below Gold Canyon that starts at the junction of Superstition Fwy. '60'
reflects (in my mind) the Trail Map.

.......Jack

 

[Cubfan64]

The only real way to wrap things up is to have the stones professionally and independently dated. That was once done by a professional archeology group, again by Polzer with disappointing results (for some). It needs to be done again.

The problem there Hal is at this point there's no way of knowing without a doubt which stones are the REAL ORIGINAL ones.

 

[Cubfan64]

The so called ldm, so called peralta stones are based on I believe, I think, I assume, ect. Everything except facts.

Waltz fathered a child in 1876. Thats a fact! Its not something that I think or believe! I have found a few phone numbers. One of them could belong to his great grandson. I'll certainly call and find out.

Wow - aren't you the one who constantly asks for verifiable facts from everyone? So could you explain exactly what verifiable facts you have and can provide that without question backs up that story you're calling a fact?

You do know that over the years there have more than a small handful of people who've claimed they are the REAL relatives of the Jacob Waltz of DLM fame? Maybe one of them is, but they can't all be and none of them can prove it except by word of mouth passed down through the family - not exactly what I would consider to be verifiable fact.