new show on the dutchman

[sgtfda]

We all have different theories. Depends what you are looking for. For me it's gold. Follow the show episodes and you will see many places and subjects of interest. Remember the show title. LEGEND of the Superstition Mountain. Key word Legend

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Family Maps of Hinds County, Mississippi, Deluxe Edition - Grab it through Amazon!

[wrmickel1]

We all have different theories. Depends what you are looking for. For me it's gold. Follow the show episodes and you will see many places and subjects of interest. Remember the show title. LEGEND of the Superstition Mountain. Key word Legend

I see what the show is doing, a fresh take on the meaning of the symbols, Instead of the same dead end approach for the last one hundred years! You don't have to defend it, embrace it, and just let those dumb asses watch the show!

Your biggest fan Wrmickel1

 

[bobinsd]

Here's the latest from Desert USA. Much new stuff not discussed here...

Lost Dutchman Mine - Part 1 - DesertUSA

​

Clay Worst in 2011, discussing the legend of the Lost Dutchman Mine in a very interesting and informative presentation. The video of the presentation is available for viewing on DesertUSA. It is about 30 minutes long but well worth the time.

​

Many tales of the Lost Dutchman mention an Apache curse which protects the sacred burial ground of Apache Indians. This curse also protects the treasure of the Superstitions, whose secret location the Apache are said to know.
The legend of the curse traces back to the early 1500s, when Jesuit priests from Spain began to build missions in the areas now known as Arizona and New Mexico. During this period, the Jesuits established relations with Native Americans, who worked to mine the gold, much of which was sent back to the King of Spain.
In the late 1700s, after a falling out, the King ordered the Jesuits out of Mexico. Some believe they hid away their records of mines, treasures and ore deposits before leaving the country. Others believe that the Jesuits convinced the Native Americans that bad things would happen if they ever revealed the location of these riches to outsiders. For centuries, Native Americans have kept the treasures a secret and to this day many are reluctant to provide any related information.
There is, however, another version of the tale. Before the Lost Dutchman Mine was discovered by Jacob Waltz (the Dutchman) in the early 1870s, there was a legend of another rich mine which was discovered in the same area and mined by the Peralta family from Sonora, Mexico. It is believed by many that the Lost Dutchman Mine is one of the rich mines discovered by the Peraltas.

To continue reading, click on the url above...

 

[deducer]

Many tales of the Lost Dutchman mention an Apache curse which protects the sacred burial ground of Apache Indians. This curse also protects the treasure of the Superstitions, whose secret location the Apache are said to know.
The legend of the curse traces back to the early 1500s, when Jesuit priests from Spain began to build missions in the areas now known as Arizona and New Mexico. During this period, the Jesuits established relations with Native Americans, who worked to mine the gold, much of which was sent back to the King of Spain.
In the late 1700s, after a falling out, the King ordered the Jesuits out of Mexico. Some believe they hid away their records of mines, treasures and ore deposits before leaving the country. Others believe that the Jesuits convinced the Native Americans that bad things would happen if they ever revealed the location of these riches to outsiders. For centuries, Native Americans have kept the treasures a secret and to this day many are reluctant to provide any related information.
There is, however, another version of the tale. Before the Lost Dutchman Mine was discovered by Jacob Waltz (the Dutchman) in the early 1870s, there was a legend of another rich mine which was discovered in the same area and mined by the Peralta family from Sonora, Mexico. It is believed by many that the Lost Dutchman Mine is one of the rich mines discovered by the Peraltas.
<snip>

I couldn't read past the first page; this article is very inaccurate and poorly researched. I'll just list a few examples: The Stones were discovered in 1949 by Travis Tumlinson, not 1952. The Jesuits did not start building missions in the area known today as the southern portion of Arizona, in the early 1500's, and they were not exclusively from Spain (Kino was from Italy). They did not build missions in New Mexico as that territory belonged to the Franciscans. Even then how are the Jesuits relevant to the Superstition area or even to the LDM, never mind "the legend"? There is also no outright proof that the Peraltas even mined anywhere near the Superstition (you can thank Bicknell for that, though). Also Waltz obtained his 160 acre homestead in 1868 so he had to have discovered his rich ore prior to that.

And that's only scratching the surface. I'll stop for now just to be merciful.

 

[Cubfan64]

Pace yourself when dealing with all that snow and I am still hoping to bump into you out there one day

Another 6-12 inches today. We've gotten 70+ in the last 3 weeks but rest assured other than going up on roof to break up ice dams I'm not going overboard with exertion . I have a feeling you and I will run into one another one of these days either out in the Superstitions or elsewhere.

 

[Hal Croves]

I couldn't read past the first page; this article is very inaccurate and poorly researched. I'll just list a few examples: The Stones were discovered in 1949 by Travis Tumlinson, not 1952. The Jesuits did not start building missions in the area known today as the southern portion of Arizona, in the early 1500's, and they were not exclusively from Spain (Kino was from Italy). They did not build missions in New Mexico as that territory belonged to the Franciscans. Even then how are the Jesuits relevant to the Superstition area or even to the LDM, never mind "the legend"? There is also no outright proof that the Peraltas even mined anywhere near the Superstition (you can thank Bicknell for that, though). Also Waltz obtained his 160 acre homestead in 1868 so he had to have discovered his rich ore prior to that.

And that's only scratching the surface. I'll stop for now just to be merciful.

I was surprised to read this as your posts have been for the most part well written and insightful. However, before you go too far it would be wise too re-research the things that you feel to be incorrect. Father Kino was, because of shifting land titles and politics, neither Italian nor Spanish. The absolute date of the stones discovery is and must remain an unknown because of the secrecy involved. 49 or 52, it really just depends on what one believes and there is always the chance that we are dealing with multiple discovery dates. Jesuits in the Superstition? I would suggest that you dig deeper - Phil R. may have something to contribute here. I was told that evidence of Jesuit occupation in the Superstitions was found (I have not seen any proof of this first hand). Do you know how much Waltz paid for his plot of land in 68? Did it require a fortune? Others had money enough to buy their plots without the benefit of a mysterious mine so, why not Waltz? He obviously could not have been destitute upon his arrival in the area. These really are unrelated topics in my opinion.


I am also reading through the work and have also found a few things that need to be corrected. I hope that you and others do point out the mistakes but, if you are offering corrections, I hope that they are at least based on demonstrated fact. And where fact is not possible, an explaination for the particular belief should be given.


The one thing that I find disappointing is their lack of supporting evidence. They claim to have made contact with quite a few important people. Post their actual responses and let us form our own opinions. Public service means that you ultimately answer to the public. Don't tell us what the naysayers said, let us read it for ourselves and come to our own conclusions. Since they decidede to go public - go public. Public officials who fail to respond to public inquires fail to comply with their individual job mandate and should be chastised, embarrassed, if not disciplined for doing so. At any level. Any level.


Anyway, if you are going to do it, it is quite alright to be unmercifully. But accuracy is all important.


With good intentions.

 

[deducer]

I was surprised to read this as your posts have been for the most part well written and insightful. However, before you go too far it would be wise too re-research the things that you feel to be incorrect. Father Kino was, because of shifting land titles and politics, neither Italian nor Spanish. The absolute date of the stones discovery is and must remain an unknown because of the secrecy involved. 49 or 52, it really just depends on what one believes and there is always the chance that we are dealing with multiple discovery dates. Jesuits in the Superstition? I would suggest that you dig deeper - Phil R. may have something to contribute here. I was told that evidence of Jesuit occupation in the Superstitions was found (I have not seen any proof of this first hand). Do you know how much Waltz paid for his plot of land in 68? Did it require a fortune? Others had money enough to buy their plots without the benefit of a mysterious mine so, why not Waltz? He obviously could not have been destitute upon his arrival in the area. These really are unrelated topics in my opinion.

Hal:

As far as politics or allegiance, Kino was neither Italian nor Spanish, but betrothed to the company of Jesus.

It still remains, though, that Kino was born in in the village of Segno, in the sovereign Prince-bishopric of Trent (Northern Italy) and so therefore was not "from Spain."

As far as how old the Stone Maps are, or when they were discovered, it still remains that they first entered public consciousness in 1949, and unless superseded by concrete evidence indicating otherwise, that date is pretty much considered to be the official one.

And as far as evidence of Jesuit activity in the Supes, I think your statement is pretty explanatory:

I was told that evidence of Jesuit occupation in the Superstitions was found (I have not seen any proof of this first hand).

I furthermore have not seen any evidence put forth by Phil, either. He hasn't spoken much in this thread other than to insult Frank which I thought was uncalled for.

And as for Waltz, I will confess that I may be in error regarding his filing for an homestead as proof that he had found wealth prior to 1868. The SMM website states that:

Old timers claim Waltz prospected every winter between 1868-1886.

And for those hoping that the show will help to clear much of the misunderstanding about the Supes, I fear the opposite may be true.

For example, the last shot at the end of the first episode is a shot of what appears to be a Jesuit cross inset in stone, and this is allegedly "somewhere in the Supes":



It is very obviously a prop, and why they chose to do something so blatantly misleading like this, I have absolutely no idea as we don't know the context of that shot just yet, but my feeling right now is that it (as well as the show in general) will only add to the confusion, or myths, rather than provide clarity, as far as the history and story of the Superstition Mountains.

 

[markmar]

Sarge

Have I a chance to become actor ?

 

[johnmark29020]

I think frank and crew did a great job. I am glad they are showing the terrain. I studied GE for a couple years before going there. The terrain will kill you. Look nothing like GE. So people can see now just how rough it can be.

What really amazes me is how opinionated everyone is after watching one episode. I suggest watching a few more before you start hating .

Frank is a good man,and the way many of you are trash talking him. Well ots undeserved. We all have our sources that we trust. We all have our opinions.
He had just ad much right to his as you do to yours.

Many people are mad about the show because they werent asked to be apart,
Others are mad because they didnt think of it first.

Frank and crew said they were going to do this show,and they made it happen.
I say good for them.

 

[Gold Maven]

I don't mean to pick a fight with you Lost Dutchman Gentlemen, but hasn't it been proven that Waltz's gold matched the Vulture mine in Wickenburg, where he worked?

I thought that it had been proven that he was no more than a high grader, that made up a story to save face, and stay out of jail.

High grading was very common in those days.

Again, not meaning to upset anyone, but I thought the Dutchman story was put to rest years ago.

 

[johnmark29020]

I don't mean to pick a fight with you Lost Dutchman Gentlemen, but hasn't it been proven that Waltz's gold matched the Vulture mine in Wickenburg, where he worked?

I thought that it had been proven that he was no more than a high grader, that made up a story to save face, and stay out of jail.

High grading was very common in those days.

Again, not meaning to upset anyone, but I thought the Dutchman story was put to rest years ago.

The ore was shown to the foreman of the vulture. He had said the gold didnt match.
I think I have that straight. Guys feel free to correct me if im off a little.

 

[quutos gold]

grats on the new show, the az mountains are awesome i spent 3yrs in az while in the army .(fort huachuca az.) there is a lot of history in the mountains all over az that is still lost. i hope you guys find some of it.i hope the show gets more than 1 season and can look at others findings too like this The Sombrero Mine

 

[somehiker]

Sarge

Have I a chance to become actor ?

View attachment 1119715

Nice Benelli Marius....I think...
Owned a beautiful Benelli over and under for a couple of years.

 

[somehiker]

I don't mean to pick a fight with you Lost Dutchman Gentlemen, but hasn't it been proven that Waltz's gold matched the Vulture mine in Wickenburg, where he worked?

I thought that it had been proven that he was no more than a high grader, that made up a story to save face, and stay out of jail.

High grading was very common in those days.

Again, not meaning to upset anyone, but I thought the Dutchman story was put to rest years ago.

I believe the "Vulture" highgrade story is actually the one that was "put to rest" some time ago.
An assay was done on some of the remaining Dutchman ore samples, which showed the ore as NOT coming from the Vulture or any other known gold mine in Arizona.
As far as I know the assay report has been shared and published a number of times, by Dr. Thomas Glover and others.
And also so far as I remember, no documentation has ever surfaced which proves Waltz was employed as a miner or dismissed by the Vulture Mine for any reason.Such claims back then would have changed the earliest accounts to ones of searching for his stolen gold, rather than his hidden mine and caches IMO.
Joe,Paul, or any of the other LDM researchers can correct me if I am wrong.
But I am SURE that the `Vulture`claim will remain true regardless. At least in the minds of those who would rather the mine not exist, or be `found``somewhere other than in the Superstition Mountains.

Regards:SH

 

[somehiker]

Hal and deducer:

I think it needs to be remembered that Waltz`s pre-homestead period was spent in first the Bradshaws, and then in the Superstition Mountain-Picket Post-Florence area. His actions, as reported after he was established on his homestead, indicate that he continued to visit his mine, but from a different direction, traveling eastward from Phoenix.

Regards:SH.

 

[wrmickel1]

Hal:

As far as politics or allegiance, Kino was neither Italian nor Spanish, but betrothed to the company of Jesus.

It still remains, though, that Kino was born in in the village of Segno, in the sovereign Prince-bishopric of Trent (Northern Italy) and so therefore was not "from Spain."

As far as how old the Stone Maps are, or when they were discovered, it still remains that they first entered public consciousness in 1949, and unless superseded by concrete evidence indicating otherwise, that date is pretty much considered to be the official one.

And as far as evidence of Jesuit activity in the Supes, I think your statement is pretty explanatory:

I furthermore have not seen any evidence put forth by Phil, either. He hasn't spoken much in this thread other than to insult Frank which I thought was uncalled for.

And as for Waltz, I will confess that I may be in error regarding his filing for an homestead as proof that he had found wealth prior to 1868. The SMM website states that:

And for those hoping that the show will help to clear much of the misunderstanding about the Supes, I fear the opposite may be true.

For example, the last shot at the end of the first episode is a shot of what appears to be a Jesuit cross inset in stone, and this is allegedly "somewhere in the Supes":

<img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1119696"/>

It is very obviously a prop, and why they chose to do something s blatantly misleading like this, I have absolutely no idea as we don't know the context of that shot just yet, but my feeling right now is that it (as well as the show in general) will only add to the confusion, or myths, rather than provide clarity, as far as the history and story of the Superstition Mountains.

Deducer

You seem not to understand the name of the show, The Legends of The Superstitions' So the Jesuit cross fits in with the LEGENDS!
There not stating facts, there just covering the Legends.

So, it fits in the show

Wrmickel1

 

[johnmark29020]

It was said on here that a circle in a circle doesnt mean water or water fall.

I did fire protection for 20 years and my industry is a little over a hundred years old.
Circle in a circle represents fire sprinkler heads. The symbol originally meant falling water.

So frank could be right. Circle in a circle with the outside circle made of dotted lines. Means extended water spray.

Triangles on sprinkler plans usually mean sidwall heads. The water sprays sideways instead of down. Triangle could represent water that comes out of the side of a mtn.
The symbols we use are very old and havent changed much since the beginning.

 

[Eldo]

It was said on here that a circle in a circle doesnt mean water or water fall.

I did fire protection for 20 years and my industry is a little over a hundred years old.
Circle in a circle represents fire sprinkler heads. The symbol originally meant falling water.

So frank could be right. Circle in a circle with the outside circle made of dotted lines. Means extended water spray.

Triangles on sprinkler plans usually mean sidwall heads. The water sprays sideways instead of down. Triangle could represent water that comes out of the side of a mtn.
The symbols we use are very old and havent changed much since the beginning.

That's got to be the funniest thing I have ever heard said about a Mine Symbol before

Do you think that Waltz was employed laying sprinklers in the valley?

It is kinda of hot there in AZ

 

[wrmickel1]

That's got to be the funniest thing I have ever heard said about a Mine Symbol before

Do you think that Waltz was employed laying sprinklers in the valley?

It is kinda of hot there in AZ

Maybe' and charging what they charge now, Waltz could have made, 20 men millionaires

Wrmickel1

 

[johnmark29020]

That's got to be the funniest thing I have ever heard said about a Mine Symbol before

Do you think that Waltz was employed laying sprinklers in the valley?

It is kinda of hot there in AZ

Of course not. I was only referring to the symbol being used to indicate water.
Then of course you knew that was my point.