new show on the dutchman

[UncleMatt]

I agree azblackbird

 

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[Cubfan64]

I'm guessing most here don't get out very much. I can guarantee you first hand that what you see in Google Earth (or even a flyover 500 ft. above the deck), is not even close to what the actual terrain is when you're out on location. I just have to laugh at all the photos people post trying to match up the terrain or landmarks from a satellite/aerial photo with what they think they see on a map. Get a clue people!

I think there are more of us who believe the same way you do than you might think - it's just the vocal minority who see 3 story numbers "carved" into mountainsides and acres of trees that happen to look like something when viewed from above who push those ideas. The rest of us just get tired of arguing and we skip those posts now

 

[sgtfda]

Hello Sarge,

Enjoyed watching your program on Sunday night and look forward to the rest of the series. Seems like you folks are having a great time out there.

Regardless of what folks believe perhaps they can learn something while having the chance to experience some very special country.

Perhaps what is really valuable in those mountains has very little to do with great wealth, in the sense of Gold, but a lot to do with what the adventure does to us.

And anything you can do to keep people in that part of the range is a good thing.

Good luck in your efforts.


Starman

Starman you nailed it.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I had fun watching the show. It makes me miss the Supes even more. I absolutely LOVE the photography showing the "real trails", the climbing hands and knees, up and over rocks, cactus and everything else the Supes throw at you. It sure put an exclamation point on "hiking" in them thar hills. I have often said that, when it the Supes, plan on walking 3 miles for every mile you actually go. . Google earth has nothing on "boots on the ground", and I just have to respect anyone who will do the walking with the talking.

Mrs.O

 

[coazon de oro]

Perhaps the shear volume of words in your quote was overwhelming.

Here is one part you might try to prove.

I told you before that what I used to form my opinion was either common knowledge, or plain common sense. That comes from Jacob Waltz according to the author. He said he worked one winter on covering the mine. Since it had been stated that the opening was the size of pickle barrel, that too must be true. He made it 2 1/2' x 2 1/2' x 6' creating a ledge. He then cut ironwood, or mesquite logs, and layed them in crisscrossed for four feet. The other top two feet of the shaft was then filled with dirt, and rocks. That's why he said you could drive a pack train over it, and not know it was there. Oh, and before he covered it he placed the ore of two caches that totaled in his estimate $75,000.00 in his era.

I did not mean to overwhelm you again.

Homar

 

[Hal Croves]

I think there are more of us who believe the same way you do than you might think - it's just the vocal minority who see 3 story numbers "carved" into mountainsides and acres of trees that happen to look like something when viewed from above who push those ideas. The rest of us just get tired of arguing and we skip those posts now

Cubfan64,
I am going to have to throw my hat in with the vocal minority. While I absolutely agree that there is no substitute for on-the-ground confirmation of what one discovers in aerial photography, and that the imagination can sometimes lead us astray, the belief that a tool like Google Earth or similar aerial imaging service is of little value is quite honestly misplaced.


Dr. Berson of Berlin, as early as 1895ish, successfully demonstrated the effectiveness of the tethered ballon and camera as tools in archeology. It continues today and plays a critical roll in the fields of archeology, geology, agriculture, not to mention law enforcement and national defense.


What began as a Photograph Interpreter, became an Image Analyst, which today in the Army is called a Geospatial Intelligence Image Analyst or a 35G. Note the word "intelligence". There is actually a science to it and the men and women who do this work are highly valued, intelligent, and have at times played a key roll in our nations defense. To dismiss this line of work outright or the potential as a research tool, is in my opinion a disservice to those doing it.


I think that it comes down to training. Most people using GE as a tool to explore the Superstitions have little or none of it. That is easily corrected by finding something interesting on GE and then getting out there to see what it actually looks like, feels like, and smells like on the ground. That's really all it takes. Then go back to the computer and compare notes. Yes, the resolution of GE is limited and light and shadow play a huge roll in seeing things that are not there, but once you train yourself, or are professionally trained (hint,hint), it's a skill that only gets better in time.


Prove it? Look at eldo's image of the "5" again. It's a rock formation. Looks artificial (man-made) and I can clearly see what appears to be a number five like shape. The problem is that this is a natural formation. How can we know this? Look at the shadows. They can be used to determine height or variation in height. eldo's "5" seems to consist of a structure that has varying height. This among other things (wink,wink) would lead one to conclude that the object is natural. Why would there be so much variation in the height of a flat, ground based man-made symbol. It is illogical. Shadows, knowing how to read them is the key. Now I could be wrong but until we have ground based confirmation that the 5 is an artificial structure, it is natural.


Google Earth? It's a tool, but unfortunately, very few take the time to learn how to use it properly.

Books like this one are a great way to start.

 

[Cubfan64]

...the belief that a tool like Google Earth or similar aerial imaging service is of little value is quite honestly misplaced...

...That is easily corrected by finding something interesting on GE and then getting out there to see what it actually looks like, feels like, and smells like on the ground. That's really all it takes. Then go back to the computer and compare notes...

Hal, I don't put you in the vocal minority at all and I didn't mean to imply that GE serves no purpose at all. As you said, it's a tool like others that can be used when put in the right perspective and when verified with on the ground confirmations.

I won't name the people who I feel belong on the list, but I suspect most people who've been on this forum for awhile can tick them off by name. They're the ones who for one reason or another (and they may have very valid reasons for doing so) can't make it into the mountains, but spend their time on GE just grabbing images left and right as long as they line up with their pet theories and then try to convince everyone that what they see is really there. They're the same people who post photos of entire mountainsides with what they claim are man made carvings that are hundreds of feet tall and take up the whole side of cliff.

GE images certainly have a purpose - for example you can easily pick out Circlestone on it, but to post image after image with claims that one knows with certainty that they are all man made without going out and verifying things is a fools errand imho.

Hope you're doing well Hal - things have been pretty busy the last month with shoveling snow for me

 

[Hal Croves]

View attachment 1118912

@ Joy, What number is that circled in yellow ?

Now compare the research from the trail I found above, and this from the show 'Superstition Mountains' below. Supposedly a heart shaped rock, sorry if the outlines brought out the shapes, but you can clearly see its not a heart in ANY manner ither than SGT's imagination.

Cause I just did a year of research, to see both Scott Wolters, the King of Concrete Evidence, and now another charade on TV making complete fools of fact itself, using a map out of a book, that is nothing more than a copy of the same stones on display, except altered to fit with the intent of justifying going to this location.

So how can not one person see the shape you ask?

Well I can see the number 5 just fine.

Eldo,


I have to agree with your comment about Wolters. If he is honestly considered to be a "professional" then standards in the scientific community have certainly lapsed back to the time of roaming quacks. That is unfortunate as the cinematography in the America Unearthed 1st season is sometimes quite beautiful. Scott would be better off focusing on one subject and making a full length documentary, backed with some MUCH needed research. His work is embarrassingly disappointing and I must admit that I took great pleasure in watching his face drop when confronted with reason.


But again, his work is TV entertainment, not to be confused with any scholarly effort. "This, this is HUGE!". Well, not quite sparky.


You used the world charade to describe the show that Sarge recently appeared in. As I have no way of possibly seeing it until it becomes available online, I am only guessing here but, I highly doubt that he would participate in or, attach himself to anything resembling a charade. It sound like good TV entertainment, worth watching and the fact that he apparently enjoyed himself makes it all the more interesting. Sarge and I don't agree on much, but I don't see him intentionally participating in a charade. Suggesting so is distasteful in my unimportant opinion.

But damn if he doesn't have the most piercing and beautiful blue eyes.

 

[markmar]

Cubfan64

You wrote : " They're the same people who post photos of entire mountainsides with what they claim are man made carvings that are hundreds of feet tall and take up the whole side of cliff. "

I respect your opinion , and I want to make a correction : The cliff which I posted is only about 40 ft high .
Now , you can continue your thoughts .

 

[Hal Croves]

.... I have often said that, when it the Supes, plan on walking 3 miles for every mile you actually go....

Mrs.O

Mrs. Oroblanco,
This is the truest truth to be found on TNet. Sometimes it feels like even more.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal, I don't put you in the vocal minority at all and I didn't mean to imply that GE serves no purpose at all. As you said, it's a tool like others that can be used when put in the right perspective and when verified with on the ground confirmations.

I won't name the people who I feel belong on the list, but I suspect most people who've been on this forum for awhile can tick them off by name. They're the ones who for one reason or another (and they may have very valid reasons for doing so) can't make it into the mountains, but spend their time on GE just grabbing images left and right as long as they line up with their pet theories and then try to convince everyone that what they see is really there. They're the same people who post photos of entire mountainsides with what they claim are man made carvings that are hundreds of feet tall and take up the whole side of cliff.

GE images certainly have a purpose - for example you can easily pick out Circlestone on it, but to post image after image with claims that one knows with certainty that they are all man made without going out and verifying things is a fools errand imho.

Hope you're doing well Hal - things have been pretty busy the last month with shoveling snow for me

No complaints from the city of brotherly love. They keep telling us to prepare for snow but it seems to want to stay in the northern colonies.


And I know that you understand the value of aerial imagery. The Superstitions are full of mystery. I tell the story of the giant Confucius like carving that I once found in Peters Canyon. 100-150 feet tall on discovery and without question man-made. I would have bet my ex-wife on it. But now that I have passed that same location 10 times, it's nowhere to be found. It was a play of light and shadow but at that moment well, I dropped to my knees in amazement.


And I think that this is the frustration that we all feel. Posting GE images with bold declarations of what we are seeing without the supporting evidence. The burden of proof is alway going to remain with the individual making the claim. Proof in the form of tool marks, debris piles, an explanation of how it was accomplished or even the all illusive clear photograph.


Without these things, it's all just supposition.


I plan to be there in the fall to have a look at the last two places on my checklist but right now I am focused on things in Texas. Who knows, it my eventually turn out to be something worth reading about.


Pace yourself when dealing with all that snow and I am still hoping to bump into you out there one day.

 

[sgtfda]

You ever wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

 

[Hal Croves]

The secret map used on the show is on page 31 of "In Search of the Heart" it originated in Garmins 1975 book.

Goldbugpr,

It sound like you are no longer connected to the museum. I hope that is not the case and that you are still working on deciphering the stones. The one thing that I don't understand is your lack of participation on TNet. So few here have managed to put their ideas to print and the fact that you have is commendable. In fact, if I have made any contribution to this site, it was only at your encouragement to write my thoughts down. Thank you for that.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

I told you before that what I used to form my opinion was either common knowledge, or plain common sense. That comes from Jacob Waltz according to the author. He said he worked one winter on covering the mine. Since it had been stated that the opening was the size of pickle barrel, that too must be true. He made it 2 1/2' x 2 1/2' x 6' creating a ledge. He then cut ironwood, or mesquite logs, and layed them in crisscrossed for four feet. The other top two feet of the shaft was then filled with dirt, and rocks. That's why he said you could drive a pack train over it, and not know it was there. Oh, and before he covered it he placed the ore of two caches that totaled in his estimate $75,000.00 in his era.

I did not mean to overwhelm you again.

Homar

I suppose it is possible you have overwhelmed yourself once again, as for me - underwhelmed. It seems your problems started back in post #77 where you make the claim but offer no reference. Then you keep jerking the thing around up to post #268 where you still don't seem to understand, either that or you
just want to deflect the issue by throwing up ad hominem flack.

Lets put it to you again:

You said

I can always back up what I say, some times I will only do it via pm, but I will prove what I state.

which I quoted back to you in my post #80 and took you up on it:

OK, I'lll BYTE. Prove to me that some fantastic LDM mine actually existed, and while you are at it, that Peraltas mined it before Jake.

So far you have failed.

Now, more recently the issue before you deals specifically with the information you put out, like in post #268.

What is the source? What is the exact quote from that source? You just throw out "according to the author."

Making a bigger claim - adding more unsubstantiated information - does not prove anything.

So far you have failed to prove anything despite your braggadocio claiming a flawless record. Maybe that proves something?

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

ConceotualuzedNetherlandr, end the insults NOW....

 

[bobinsd]

Here's the latest from Desert USA. Much new stuff not discussed here...

Lost Dutchman Mine - Part 1 - DesertUSA

 

[ibjeepn]

View attachment 1119197
You ever wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

Frank. I'd like to ad that you wear that lid with respect. Hooah.

 

[sgtfda]

I see you have taken that photo the wrong way Jeff. In fact I have a poster size on the wall next to my fireplace and it's pointing at me. as you can see.
It is a unused promo shot. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I have attempted to bring some new things to the site over the years but it's apparent it's upsetting to some. I'll be posting elsewhere in the future. You still are my friend in Pa.

 

[jeff of pa]

I see you have taken that photo the wrong way Jeff. In fact I have a poster size on the wall next to my fireplace and it's pointing at me. View attachment 1119416 as you can see.
It is a unused promo shot. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I have attempted to bring some new things to the site over the years but it's apparent it's upsetting to some. I'll be posting elsewhere in the future. You still are my friend in Pa.

All you had to do was Explain it sgt.
it isn't so much the Pic It's the fact it is Gigantic & in My face then other members try to
Match it with other pics of Guns Pointing

 

[sgtfda]

I see that. The photo is by a well known NY photographer. He got on his knees and said point the gun at my face. I said it's loaded. He said point it! I did. Remove the photo