Mines, Mines, and More Mines.

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Then I must have been right when I said the same thing. Did you miss all the times where I said that none of this proves the Beale treasure story? No proof of the Beale treasure, AND no proof of the dime novel.
The proof of the dime is the actual published 1885 Beale Papers job pamphlet.
 

The proof of the dime is the actual published 1885 Beale Papers job pamphlet.

The existence of the Beale Papers is proof that the Beale Papers are a hoax? I guess that's all you can actually show.
 

Never claimed the Beale Papers to be a hoax, only a dime novel. There is a difference.

So the Beale Papers existence is proof they are a dime novel? How is that different than someone who might claim the Beale Papers to be true, simply because they exist?
 

The nuggets Purcell showed to Pike, where placer gold found in the streams of South Park, Colorado, near Fairplay.

If you read the subscripts at the bottom of the pages it tells you the exact location of the name of the town. I believe it was on Cherry Creek on the opposite side of Pike's Peak from Cripple Creek. I know it mentions near South Park, CO. but that is where Pursley was with about 5,000 Indians that he traveled with, it does not say that is where he found the placer gold. All placer gold leads to veins and eventually gold mines.
 

If you read the subscripts at the bottom of the pages it tells you the exact location of the name of the town. I believe it was on Cherry Creek on the opposite side of Pike's Peak from Cripple Creek. I know it mentions near South Park, CO. but that is where Pursley was with about 5,000 Indians that he traveled with, it does not say that is where he found the placer gold. All placer gold leads to veins and eventually gold mines.

And those Indians were not trying to kill him. Imagine that.
 

So the Beale Papers existence is proof they are a dime novel? How is that different than someone who might claim the Beale Papers to be true, simply because they exist?
Quite elementary, provide documented hard evidence that confirms beyond a reasonable doubt that the events as written in the Beale Papers narrative text actually had taken place.
As you are well aware, since the 1885 publication of the job pamphlet, supporting documentation has never been brought forth.
The conspicuous absence of any supporting evidence that would confirm the incidents described, leads to the obvious conclusion that those events did not occur outside of the Beale Papers, and only exist as a work of fiction with minimal facts added to the storyline, as was common and consistent with the dime novels of that period.
 

Quite elementary, provide documented hard evidence that confirms beyond a reasonable doubt that the events as written in the Beale Papers narrative text actually had taken place.
As you are well aware, since the 1885 publication of the job pamphlet, supporting documentation has never been brought forth.
The conspicuous absence of any supporting evidence that would confirm the incidents described, leads to the obvious conclusion that those events did not occur outside of the Beale Papers, and only exist as a work of fiction with minimal facts added to the storyline, as was common and consistent with the dime novels of that period.

Provide documented hard evidence that confirms beyond a reasonable doubt that the events as written in the Beale Papers narrative text actually DID NOT take place. That's what you would have to show in order to have PROOF, which you claim you have. You have circumstantial evidence, and so do I. We both have things that suggest what the Beale story could have been, but no proof either way. And no, the Beale papers are not a novel. They may not be true, but they are given AS a true story. Not a novel.
 

That was the Indians that TJB got to help mine the gold.

Some people try to say the Indians couldn't have helped white men at that time. They ignore the fact that at different times in history there were hostile Indians AND friendly Indians at the same time.
 

Provide documented hard evidence that confirms beyond a reasonable doubt that the events as written in the Beale Papers narrative text actually DID NOT take place. That's what you would have to show in order to have PROOF, which you claim you have. You have circumstantial evidence, and so do I. We both have things that suggest what the Beale story could have been, but no proof either way. And no, the Beale papers are not a novel. They may not be true, but they are given AS a true story. Not a novel.
If something, "DID NOT take place" where would there be evidence of something that never happened?
...and as have been discussed, the BEALE PAPERS is written in the form of a novel, it is ALLUDED to be a true story, but the author never comes outright and states it is a true story.
 

Lets break down the great discovery and adventure.


As the story goes, the gold and silver was discovered in a ledge, just as with many other lost treasure tales. What this means is that veins of gold and silver were discovered in this ledge, these veins passing through the various types of host rock much like the veins in one's leg passes through the flesh, muscle, etc., these veins then carrying different levels of impurities from the surrounding host rock. In order to remove this gold and silver from the host rock these veins must be followed and they must be broken and dug away from the surrounding matrix, this initial effort producing ore of various assay. This is where the alleged Beale discovery and adventure (and the alleged mining operation) starts to run into some serious problems.


Because these veins of silver and gold are forced toward he surface from considerable depths in liquid form, those veins closest to the surface are generally the least pure simply because they have passed through so much host rock and all of the various elements associated with it, the cooling process also becoming quicker the closer these liquids get to the surface and as they start to slow down under less pressure, this then trapping more impurities. This is why most of the purest veins are found at considerable depths.


Erosion. As time passes, and since silver and gold are both soft metals, they tend to erode away first until they are released from the host rock and likewise carried down hill into those flowing watersheds where placer gold is often found. It fact, it is this trail of placer gold that has often lead hopeful miners to the “mother lode” or “source” much higher up. Once the mother lode has been discovered this is where “hard rock mining” starts to come into play as the source must be followed into and through the host rock in order to find the purest metals, and hopefully the remaining larger source. Though there are exceptions this is the general manner as to how silver and gold is formed and the how “lode” is located, followed, and recovered in the region in question during the era in question.


Refining. This is the HUGE million dollar problem in the grand Beale adventure, not to mention the general problems and issues associated with hard rock mining during the era and the region in question. Also recall, that according to the tale, for at least half of the year the party was absent half, and one third, of it's number, these absences being associated with Beale's travels and his returns to the east. So right from the very start adjustments have to be accounted for in the actual amount of time that the entire party could have been mining and once this is done suddenly we are down to just a few months.
And as for the refining of the alleged gold and silver, well this represents the absolute sharpest dagger in the tale, as has already been detailed many times over on this thread.


Pickaxes, shovels, sledge hammers, explosives, quick silver, and the list goes on and on, items that a buffalo hunting party certainly didn't have in the required quantity, santa Fe no doubt being unable to fulfill all of this required equipment as well on such short notice, Santa Fe not exactly being the mining capital of New Spain at the time despite what many wish to believe, but just for giggles let's go ahead and entertain this anyway.


So here we have Beale and what remains of the party, Americans no less, shopping through Spanish Santa Fe for all of the required items referenced above, this New Spain mining capital and all of it's resident miners never taking notice or bothering to follow these Americans to their new and fantastical strike that required so much mining essentials. Nor did any of the officials in Spanish Santa Fe object, refuse, or bother to investigate the situation. “Sure, here you go, and go right ahead you lucky devils, we're not the least bit interested.” OK, so it certainly happened that way because the tale says it did.


So here we are now, at the mining site, everyone working their hands and backs to the bone to mine silver ore they can't even refine without considerable loss, the blast from the dynamite never being heard or question by the surrounding inhabitants, the falling of numerous trees for the making of trusses never being noticed as well. While half of the party, of those who still remain, so a total of perhaps seven for part of the year, are tending to the horses and ox and camp and meals, lookout duty, etc., etc., etc., the remaining six or seven continue to dig into and through the hard granite for more “pure ore”, tons of it in fact. Really? People really buy into all of this? In total, horses and everything else that would be required, just how much supply would it take to support this operation and these thirty men for at least two years and where did all keep coming from? The August train, perhaps?


Thirty men, plus Morriss, that's thirty-one shares, but what of the poor guide? Ooops! Guess the author forgot about him, as so often happens in these type of treasure tales. And so on and so on and so on.....:thumbsup:
Then there is the question on how heavy loaded wagons and their draft teams got across the wide Mississippi River to get to St Louis.
The river steamboats were primitive and not that large, some keelboats could accommodate a wagon but not the heavy load as described in the job pamphlet, and doesn't seem to have been a flatboat barge ferry during that time period.
...and if they did find some kind of transport, the word would have spread about their precious cargo, and the local newspapers of that time relished in printing a good treasure story-yet there was no contemporary mention of the Beale Expedition. The first was, of course, was Ward's copyrighted 1885 Beale Papers, and much later, the Hart Papers.
 

If something, "DID NOT take place" where would there be evidence of something that never happened?
...and as have been discussed, the BEALE PAPERS is written in the form of a novel, it is ALLUDED to be a true story, but the author never comes outright and states it is a true story.

But you're claiming that something DID happen. But no proof.

The author calls the story a history. He also says he has hopes that the publication might bring out the missing paper. Yes, he claims it to be true.
 

...

The author calls the story a history. He also says he has hopes that the publication might bring out the missing paper. Yes, he claims it to be true.
Not really. That line in the Beale Papers:
"the papers which form the subject of this history" is not the same as saying this is a true history, just that the "Beale letters" form the subject of THIS HISTORY of the storyline. That is an alluded disclaimer that "this history" is not real.
Now, while we are on the subject of history, according to the storyline Beale/and or Beale Party came in contact with many people in Santa Fe, St Louis, Morris's in Lynchburg, and Buford's in Bedford county, but, there is no contemporary record anywhere of Beale or his Party. No mention until 60 years later in the 1885 Beale Papers.
 

Not really. That line in the Beale Papers:
"the papers which form the subject of this history" is not the same as saying this is a true history, just that the "Beale letters" form the subject of THIS HISTORY of the storyline. That is an alluded disclaimer that "this history" is not real.
Now, while we are on the subject of history, according to the storyline Beale/and or Beale Party came in contact with many people in Santa Fe, St Louis, Morris's in Lynchburg, and Buford's in Bedford county, but, there is no contemporary record anywhere of Beale or his Party. No mention until 60 years later in the 1885 Beale Papers.

Okay, he was telling people the story was a false history.::)

How sure are you that there are no contemporary records of Beale or his Party? Anything that's shown will just be dismissed.
 

No contemporary records have ever been produced by anyone, so yes, I am sure.
The author is not saying it is a "false" history, but "this history" is provided for the development of the fictional storyline.
If he was providing a true history, he would have written "this is history", NOT "this history".
Notice the difference in meaning between the two.
 

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No contemporary records have ever been produced by anyone, so yes, I am sure.
The author is not saying it is a "false" history, but "this history" is provided for the development of the fictional storyline.
If he was providing a true history, he would have written "this is history", NOT "this history".
Notice the difference in meaning between the two.

My goodness the lengths some people will go to when they're determined to not believe in even the possibility of something.
A history IS real. A false story is NOT a history. Spin it any way you want.
 

I think the grand adventure portion of the tale is a very romantic gesture, thirty men defying all odds and limits and returning with, "pots of gold." I just wish I has a dime for every time I heard the gesture, "pot of gold." :laughing7: The only thing missing from the tale is a rainbow.
 

Northern New Mexico, 1680, this tale of lost treasure originating with the famous and fierce Pueblo, or Ute, Indian uprising that pushed the Spanish, roughly 2500, from the entire region for a period of twelve long years. This true event is history also called, Pope's Uprising.


Anyway, it is told that just prior to this coordinated attack that word of the impending assault had reached a few of the outlaying missions, this early warning allowing the residents little time to prepare for their departure ahead of the assault. From one of these locations there is said to have survived an old diary that details how the resident priest immediately set about stashing the church's possessions, this including items like large silver crosses, chalices, candelabras, etc., items they knew that they couldn't carry away in safety, so instead they quickly buried them for safekeeping until their return, which they assumed would be much sooner. However, as it turned out, and due to the long twelve year wait before Spain regained control of the region, these priest never did return to the region and to this day these items are said to still be buried somewhere near the site of that old mission.


In the 1980's a man was under investigation for what authorities suspected to be the result of a very covert operation to recover these same lost items. Apparently this man had spent three years pretending to be something of a naturalist, spending each of these summers trekking about the region simply enjoying the great outdoors. However, at this same time his personal collection of large silver crosses, silver chalices, silver candelabras, and other period-correct items continued to accumulate. The investigation lasted several years but since the man continued to deny his involvement, his claim being that the items were simply family heirlooms, and since authorities could never prove otherwise, the case was eventually dropped. (Authorities held felt certain that the man had simply been removing the items a few pieces at a time to avoid any chance of raising suspicion by being spotted always returning with a heavier load then he had departed with.)



Now just by examining this story and without having even researched it further, I assure you that this story is two things, first I assure that the story is authentic and the entire uprising history is absolutely true to the bone, and second, I can also assure that the rest of this story, including the priest hiding the church's wealth, is a complete fabrication and that it never happened at all, this story simply being the result of a very cagey author with a very sharp hook.
 

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