Mines, Mines, and More Mines.

[bigscoop]

Santa Fe was Spanish territory, but the area where the mines are was Louisiana Purchase.

Obviously you believe in the Beale mine. My only advice then, I wouldn't be putting any boots on the ground in search of it.
You also seem to believe you know exactly where this alleged mine was?

Also, glad you questioned the number of the party I presented as being at the alleged mine site, until now you have maintained that thirty men could accomplish said task. However, you need to read the tale again, and this time use a pencil to jot down the amount of actual time that the entire party was said to be alleged mine and actual amount of time that part of the party, or all of it, was away. Then calculate just how many bodies, and just how much "season" was spent mining, etc. Suddenly you don't have near the man power or labor time you believe you have. Now calculate just how much "rich" ore, say 50%, would have to be hard rock mined by the number of actual bodies in the actual amount of labor time provided to gather the amounts of "gold and silver" presented in C2. Now calculate travel time over extremely rough terrains carrying this much weight with you 10 ox and ten wagons, the last half of the trip being done with half the man power, etc., etc., etc. Now, as best as you can, try to figure out how all of this silver ore was assayed to a satisfactory means that it could be traded for jewels, etc., etc., etc. So not only are there obvious flaws in certain details of the story but the accumulated shortcomings certainly dispel any chance that the letters and the tale that contain are true.

 

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[Old Silver]

Wrong again, bigscoop. I neither believe, nor disbelieve in "The Beale mine." You should know that by my use of the word POSSIBLE, instead of DEFINATE. And if that's not enough, my statements that I'M NOT SAYING THIS PROVES THE BEALE TREASURE STORY should do it for you.

Do I know exactly where the Beale mine is (if true)? No, I don't. I do know the general area, because it's clearly stated in the Beale Papers, and that area became a well known and very profitable mining area for gold and silver.

 

[Old Silver]

Obviously you believe in the Beale mine. My only advice then, I wouldn't be putting any boots on the ground in search of it.
You also seem to believe you know exactly where this alleged mine was?

Also, glad you questioned the number of the party I presented as being at the alleged mine site, until now you have maintained that thirty men could accomplish said task. However, you need to read the tale again, and this time use a pencil to jot down the amount of actual time that the entire party was said to be alleged mine and actual amount of time that part of the party, or all of it, was away. Then calculate just how many bodies, and just how much "season" was spent mining, etc. Suddenly you don't have near the man power or labor time you believe you have. Now calculate just how much "rich" ore, say 50%, would have to be hard rock mined by the number of actual bodies in the actual amount of labor time provided to gather the amounts of "gold and silver" presented in C2. Now calculate travel time over extremely rough terrains carrying this much weight with you 10 ox and ten wagons, the last half of the trip being done with half the man power, etc., etc., etc. Now, as best as you can, try to figure out how all of this silver ore was assayed to a satisfactory means that it could be traded for jewels, etc., etc., etc. So not only are there obvious flaws in certain details of the story but the accumulated shortcomings certainly dispel any chance that the letters and the tale that contain are true.

I questioned the number of the party you presented as being at the alleged mine site? What I questioned is why YOU seem to not be sure if it were a few months, or about 2 years.
I have shown what men DID DO, WITHOUT MODERN EQUIPMENT, so I have a pretty good reason for believing that. I know you don't like that, but it's recorded, and I'll believe the record over someone's opinion.

 

[Old Silver]

Just for an example:

1. 50 men work a gold/silver mine in 1750. The only tools they use are picks, shovels, hammers, etc. No modern equipment. They work for 1 full year.

2. 50 men work a gold/silver mine in 1950. The only tools they use are picks, shovels, hammers, etc. No modern equipment. They work for 1 full year.

Which group of men could mine more gold/silver?

 

[bigscoop]

I questioned the number of the party you presented as being at the alleged mine site? What I questioned is why YOU seem to not be sure if it were a few months, or about 2 years.
I have shown what men DID DO, WITHOUT MODERN EQUIPMENT, so I have a pretty good reason for believing that. I know you don't like that, but it's recorded, and I'll believe the record over someone's opinion.

Funny how you never quote anything, even documented things, that are contrary to your obvious belief in the whole Beale mine possibility. Given that there is so much of it out there to be easy found I would think a truly unbiased person would also research and present such things, just as I often have in the past. You see, there's the big difference between you and I, I have openly researched and welcomed all forms of contrary evidence over the years and as a result it has often enlightened me and caused me to change opinion, or position, VS ignoring and shutting this contrary information completely out. This is also why I am 100% confident today that the letters are bogus and that the alleged mine and grand adventure never existed. But you believe what you must for now as I am confident that once you allow the contrary to be entertained and absorbed you'll eventually arrive where I am today.

 

[Old Silver]

Funny how you never quote anything, even documented things, that are contrary to your obvious belief in the whole Beale mine possibility. Given that there is so much of it out there to be easy found I would think a truly unbiased person would also research and present such things, just as I often have in the past. You see, there's the big difference between you and I, I have openly researched and welcomed all forms of contrary evidence over the years and as a result it has often enlightened me and caused me to change opinion, or position, VS ignoring and shutting this contrary information completely out. This is also why I am 100% confident today that the letters are bogus and that the alleged mine and grand adventure never existed. But you believe what you must for now as I am confident that once you allow the contrary to be entertained and absorbed you'll eventually arrive where I am today.

I started out neutral in everything concerning the Beale story. I'm still pretty much neutral, accept for the POSSIBILITY part. Now tell me, why would I post things contrary to what I have found that state the amounts people took out of those mines, without modern equipment. "Without modern equipment" takes out any consideration of WHEN the mining took place, because the same tools would have been used in the later 1800s that were used in 1818-1822.

And about you changing your opinion, or position. Do you remember how cock sure you were that those other opinions, or positions were right? Do you remember that those things were the only possible answer? That was your views then. It now seems to have been possible that something else could have been the truth. And THAT'S the difference between you and me. I don't say I'm right, because I don't know any more than anyone else about the Beale treasure. And that's why I say so. I do know that I can trust recorded statement when I read them, especially when I have multiple sources that prove it. It's called confirmation. Now, what reason would I have to believe anything produced that goes against that?

 

[bigscoop]

It's called “editorial” freedom, and the battle cry has always been, “freedom of the press.” This is why one should never trust anything treasure related that they might read in an old newspaper.


Basically it worked this way. If I wanted to fill a page of my newspaper with a human interest story sure to stir the masses then all I need do is to write it and lay claim that I heard it here or there or from some other unnamed source. Likewise, if I wanted to claim that I held private interview with someone before their death then I can do so and I claim that this individual told me anything I want him to have said. And I could do all of this and more and nobody could do a darn thing about it.


Now while the courts have challenged this freedom of the press more vigorously in the last 30 years or so this same type of editorial freedom still exist today. It's for this same reason that nearly every special interest group back in the day had their very own newspaper, so they could press their own agendas, opinions, and/or propaganda. Many of today's news services still function by supporting their own interest and agendas, the current political situation being one prime example of this. So obviously one should never put too much stock in any treasure related tale that they might come across in these old sources. If the Dirty Dirt Mining and Land Management Company wanted to get folks interested in certain things then a good treasure tale was one sure way to generate that interest, per example, and there were certainly enough money hungry writers, editors, printers, and newspaper owners to oblige them. Ever tried to track down the original sources of these old tales?

 

[franklin]

If you go by the location of where James Purcell or Pursley found the gold he had in his shot pouch and read, "The Expedition of Zabulon Montgomery Pike you will find the location of the mines. I give the location in my CD Book. Hasn't anyone read it. The location is given in those two volumes published in 1810. If the Beale Expedition actually happened and TJB and party showed up in Sante Fe don't you think TJB would talk to his half brother? Pursley was telling everyone about the gold even Captain Pike and he wrote about it in his Journels 1810 over seven years before his half brother TJB got the expedition to go to Sante Fe. If the Beale Treasure story actually happened this is the "KEY"

 

[Old Silver]

It's called “editorial” freedom, and the battle cry has always been, “freedom of the press.” This is why one should never trust anything treasure related that they might read in an old newspaper.


Basically it worked this way. If I wanted to fill a page of my newspaper with a human interest story sure to stir the masses then all I need do is to write it and lay claim that I heard it here or there or from some other unnamed source. Likewise, if I wanted to claim that I held private interview with someone before their death then I can do so and I claim that this individual told me anything I want him to have said. And I could do all of this and more and nobody could do a darn thing about it.


Now while the courts have challenged this freedom of the press more vigorously in the last 30 years or so this same type of editorial freedom still exist today. It's for this same reason that nearly every special interest group back in the day had their very own newspaper, so they could press their own agendas, opinions, and/or propaganda. Many of today's news services still function by supporting their own interest and agendas, the current political situation being one prime example of this. So obviously one should never put too much stock in any treasure related tale that they might come across in these old sources. If the Dirty Dirt Mining and Land Management Company wanted to get folks interested in certain things then a good treasure tale was one sure way to generate that interest, per example, and there were certainly enough money hungry writers, editors, printers, and newspaper owners to oblige them. Ever tried to track down the original sources of these old tales?

Confirmation. That's one of my favorite words. You have one source saying a certain thing. Then you find another source, separate from the first, saying the same thing, only it's a different source. Then there's a third separate source giving another story that matched the other one's. Then another, etc. How many such sources would you have to see before you call it confirmation? In my opinion, that would depend on whether the source says what you like, or what you don't like. You can see these sources, the same as I can. You try to discount them by saying, YEAH, BUT THAT'S JUST THIS OR THAT...
Editorial freedom has nothing to do with MANY DIFFERENT sources, giving different stories, at different time, about different event, but all of them proving one thing to be true. Editorial freedom?
These article were not treasure stories. They were simply article about what happened. Treasure didn't come into it in any way. No agendas, opinions, and/or propaganda involved, only simple articles recording what had happened. And at different times, places and events. And some were of the very same events, etc. Confirmation.

I can't believe you're discounting these things. Honestly, I think you're better than this.

 

[ECS]

If you go by the location of where James Purcell or Pursley found the gold he had in his shot pouch and read, "The Expedition of Zabulon Montgomery Pike you will find the location of the mines... The location is given in those two volumes published in 1810. If the Beale Expedition actually happened and TJB and party showed up in Sante Fe don't you think TJB would talk to his half brother? Pursley was telling everyone about the gold even Captain Pike and he wrote about it in his Journels 1810...

The nuggets Purcell showed to Pike, where placer gold found in the streams of South Park, Colorado, near Fairplay.

 

[ECS]

...
Editorial freedom has nothing to do with MANY DIFFERENT sources, giving different stories, at different time, about different event, but all of them proving one thing to be true. Editorial freedom?
These article were not treasure stories. They were simply article about what happened. Treasure didn't come into it in any way. No agendas, opinions, and/or propaganda involved, only simple articles recording what had happened. And at different times, places and events...

Still there is no outside source of the period that can confirm the Beale grand adventure.
No independent outside article about what happened, only the 1885 adventure/treasure dime novel called THE BEALE PAPERS contains this story-copyrighted and published by Ward, printed by Sherman, advertised in Button's newspaper, and sold at Guggenheimer's store.
...and that my friend, is documented.

 

[ECS]

Yes. Colorado had not yet become a state, but the mining area was LP territory. Check out this 1810 map.

View attachment 1310963

South Park, Fairplay was in contention on whether it was part of the Louisiana Purchase, or part of Spanish territory in 1810.

 

[lastleg]

The period of interest was before mining was ever heard of. Purcell came in with a group of
"horse Indians" who rounded up herds of wild horses in what is now South Park CO because
a park in mountain country is relatively of even terrain and was rich in grasses and plants
the horses favored. Evidently Utas of that region were amenable to the tribes present or
they would have been driven out. Purcell found some nuggets in a stream or river and those
were the ones shown Pike at Santa Fe in 1807. Again no mines, no mines. Indians wanted
to trade with the Spaniards down south but they did not know the treachery of the Castilian
Governor. He also had Baptiste Lelande in custody when Pike arrived. Alencaster ruled Santa
Fe and its environs with an iron hand as any foreigner soon found. His cruelty eventually
led to a revolt by native inhabitants.

 

[Old Silver]

Still there is no outside source of the period that can confirm the Beale grand adventure.
No independent outside article about what happened, only the 1885 adventure/treasure dime novel called THE BEALE PAPERS contains this story-copyrighted and published by Ward, printed by Sherman, advertised in Button's newspaper, and sold at Guggenheimer's store.
...and that my friend, is documented.

Then I must have been right when I said the same thing. Did you miss all the times where I said that none of this proves the Beale treasure story? No proof of the Beale treasure, AND no proof of the dime novel.

 

[Old Silver]

South Park, Fairplay was in contention on whether it was part of the Louisiana Purchase, or part of Spanish territory in 1810.

Argue against the map, not me.

 

[bigscoop]

Of all of the "facts" and "speculations" surrounding the Beale mystery the following is, in my mind anyway, the one fact that still stands alone with curious and undeniable posture.

"All of the alleged events take place as the Adams Onis Treaty is being negotiated and settled, the dates of deposit even coinciding with these treaty signing and ratification dates and even bearing the same ten-year the term."

There is also one other fact that stands alone as well, this having to do with the Thomas Beale who allegedly lost nearly the same fortune just one year prior to the start of the Thomas Beale treasure mystery.

So in my mind anyway, these represent the possible "connexion" that the unknown author is asking his readers to make. And just so you'll know, that ten-year term attached the Adams Onis Treaty, it had to do with a large sum of money that was to be paid out to a certain number of claimants before the end of the treaty's agreed ten-year term. And if this agreed ten-year term wasn't satisfied then that vital treaty could easily go bye-bye.

Just saying.....now maybe think about it.

Need a good fabricated treasure tale to hide the truth just in case?

 

[Old Silver]

Of all of the "facts" and "speculations" surrounding the Beale mystery the following is, in my mind anyway, the one fact that still stands alone with curious and undeniable posture.

"All of the alleged events take place as the Adams Onis Treaty is being negotiated and settled, the dates of deposit even coinciding with these treaty signing and ratification dates and even bearing the same ten-year the term."

There is also one other fact that stands alone as well, this having to do with the Thomas Beale who allegedly lost nearly the same fortune just one year prior to the start of the Thomas Beale treasure mystery.

So in my mind anyway, these represent the possible "connexion" that the unknown author is asking his readers to make. And just so you'll know, that ten-year term attached the Adams Onis Treaty, it had to do with a large sum of money that was to be paid out to a certain number of claimants before the end of the treaty's agreed ten-year term. And if this agreed ten-year term wasn't satisfied then that vital treaty could easily go bye-bye.

Just saying.....now maybe think about it.

Need a good fabricated treasure tale to hide the truth just in case?

Could be. Many possibilities.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

AND! On a "hunch", I scrambled 1817 to 1871, and "googled" Colorado Mining/Mines, 1871... R & I indicate GENERAL MINING ACT of 1872; Colorado School of MINES (Golden, CO in 1859); AND! PIKE'S PEAK GOLD RUSH of 1859 (59'ers Miners!). What IF... (Heh...) TJB was Prof. Thomas J. Beale taking a class of 30 Miners-wannabees to discover & "work" a Mine...?

 

[bigscoop]

I think one of the things that keeps getting lost as folks continue to try to solve certain issues in the tale, such as trading for jewels, the suggestion of steamboats, etc., is that the simple grand adventure suddenly becomes something that would have required a great deal of advance planning, many solid connections, and also considerable influence and resources. Also, for every trade that is made, for every transfer from one travel option to the next, and so on, the number of people being exposed to the enterprise continues to increase substantially. For example, steamboats have crews and cargoes are inspected and recorded, etc., with this same increase in exposure taking place at both ends of the journey. So while some of these proposed solutions might seem appropriate they would have actually been counter productive and quite risky unless the simple thirty-man adventure was something quite more, and well planned in advance, right from the very start. Suddenly it's no longer a simple buffalo hunt turned unexpected set of the pants mining operation.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

NOT a real problem, if it all REALLY happened after 1859/1871... heh.