Mines, Mines, and More Mines.

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My goodness the lengths some people will go to when they're determined to not believe in even the possibility of something.
A history IS real. A false story is NOT a history. Spin it any way you want.
"the papers which form the subject of THIS HISTORY" statement is a literary device as set up for the story that follows, not that it is a true history, but a "history" based on the alleged "letters" sent by Beale to Morriss to further develop the building storyline which leads to buried treasure and the ciphers and a "CHANCE" to break he code and become rich overnight.
As William Friedman remarked, this is the perception of the "unwary reader".
 

"the papers which form the subject of THIS HISTORY" statement is a literary device as set up for the story that follows, not that it is a true history, but a "history" based on the alleged "letters" sent by Beale to Morriss to further develop the building storyline which leads to buried treasure and the ciphers and a "CHANCE" to break he code and become rich overnight.
As William Friedman remarked, this is the perception of the "unwary reader".

You may not know it, but you just agreed with me, that the author gave the story AS true.
 

Also the descendant families of Witcher, Coles, and Clay strongly objected to their ancestors names being used in a dime novel.
It has been mention that the reason Ward did not have additional copies printed was to avoid legal action from these families.

Did that come from the Celeste Beale Diary that you hallucinated last year to prove Captain Beale was dead before 1829 ?
 

Where is all of this documented evidence from credible sources that confirms the existence of early Spanish and French mining operations in the region in question? Truth is, it doesn't exist, and with good reason.

Yes, there have been very isolated discoveries over the years of Spanish artifacts in the region but nothing to even suggest that the Spanish had operating mines in the region, and certainly nothing to suggest that these alleged mining operations were anything beyond very small exploratory operations. And the French? There is nothing credible to support all of these allegations at all other then the typical fairy tales that are often associated with treasure and treasure hunting.

Sure, if we travel hundreds of miles to the west or to the south we'll start to encounter more evidence of these operations but this isn't the further reaches of the region in question, not even close. So how is it that the stories of all of these fabled lost mines came into existence? In discovering this answer one needs look no further then the subject of man, his mind, and it's ability to manufacture and fabricate such tales. “If it existed hundreds of miles to the south and to the west then it certainly must have existed here as well.” And “Poof!”....just like that it suddenly comes into existence with every imagination and in every manner possible.

Consider this, per example of how man and his mind goes to work on this subject. The mid to late 1800's, or the mining boom that took place in the great American west. There are those who lay claim that since this mining boom took place and existed during this era then it must have also existed in the early 1800's as well, history apparently just forgetting to document these earlier events. No, actually, there's a sound reason why history never documented these fabricated events, this simply being because because they never took place in the region in question.

As humans we want to badly believe in the common man's ability to defy history and the elements, so much so that we'll even allow ourselves to accept the impossible despite the overwhelming factors and barriers that restrict its very existence. Somehow, someway, common man was able to overcome all of these historical, documented, and deciding and very real obstacles. Why? Because we badly want him to, that's why. This is why so many treasure legends and treasure stories still exist today, because we want them to and as such we keep finding new ways to keep them alive, if only in our wildest imaginations. The Beale treasure legend serves as prime example to a great deal of this, the vast majority of this tale just not being possible according to documented history and many factors and barriers of that era. Yet, this particular treasure story is perhaps more alive today then it has ever been. Go figure.

Truth is simply this, just as documented history details, there was no grand adventure out west and there was no mining operation that produced fantastical wealth in the way of gold and silver. On top of all of this documented mining history of the region, there is no possible way that said party could have kept their secret a secret while trading for jewels in Saint Louis, boarding at boarding houses with cargo in tow, and certainly not while on some steamer where every cargo is required to be inspected, logged, taxed, etc., etc. The only way that any of this is possible is “if” there were some very influential people involved who maintained the resources and connections for arranging such a transfer of an already acquired wealth well ahead of time. “PERIOD!”

And this isn't opinion, it's cold hard fact based on the documented facts and the very real limitations of the era. :thumbsup:


This is very close to what I have been looking for .
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[Here I remained until the 18th, disposing of a part of my goods, and reserving the remainder for a trip which I contemplated to the province of Sonora. I had the pleasure once more of receiving the affectionate greeting of Jacova, who gave me the most earnest counsels to quit this dangerous and rambling way of life, and settle myself down in a house of my own. I thanked her for her kindness and good counsel, and promised to follow it, after rambling another year in the wilderness.– Thence I went to the mines, where I had the inexpressible satisfaction again to embrace my dear father, whom I found in perfect health, and making money rapidly. I remained there three days, and, accompanied with one servant, arrived in Hanas on the first of September. This is a small town situated in the province of Biscay, between the province of Sonora and New Mexico, in a direction S. W. from the copper mines.]


More hint of the copper/ mines locations following events after the earlier posts departure.

Pattie's Personal Narrative, 1824--1830


Back home to Kantuck... (and broke) in mid eighteen thirty.
http://arizonaoddities.com/2011/12/james-ohio-pattie-arizonas-first-storyteller/
 

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Gild and silver workings that were unprofitable, post Beale period dates, wrong regions, etc., etc., etc. All of this stuff has been hashed out and rehashed many times over the years to same obvious conclusions. So why do they always continue to keep coming back around as if they provide some type of evidence in support of the grand Beale party adventure? :dontknow:
 

Some of you fellas just aren't grasping the huge significance of 1821 and those years to follow, nor the entirely new movement that was the result of this year in history. After 1821 a great deal of the political threat was gone for those desiring to travel beyond our newly established western borders. In 1821 it was suddenly safe to pursue trade in the various regions such as Santa Fe, etc.
 

Some of you fellas just aren't grasping the huge significance of 1821 and those years to follow, nor the entirely new movement that was the result of this year in history. After 1821 a great deal of the political threat was gone for those desiring to travel beyond our newly established western borders. In 1821 it was suddenly safe to pursue trade in the various regions such as Santa Fe, etc.

We actually have evidence of trade and travel by white men in that area before that period. Not saying things didn't greatly improve after 1821, but these things were going on before that date.
 

We actually have evidence of trade and travel by white men in that area before that period. Not saying things didn't greatly improve after 1821, but these things were going on before that date.

Yes, this has always been known, but how does any of this have anything at all to do with the Beale mystery?
And as for a lot of these later dated accounts that you guys keep posting, do you really understand the significance of the 1821 and how it opened up an entirely new stream of Americans into those regions beyond the borders of the Louisiana Purchase? If you do then, yes, naturally you will start to see more accounts after 1821.
 

Yes, this has always been known, but how does any of this have anything at all to do with the Beale mystery?
And as for a lot of these later dated accounts that you guys keep posting, do you really understand the significance of the 1821 and how it opened up an entirely new stream of Americans into those regions beyond the borders of the Louisiana Purchase? If you do then, yes, naturally you will start to see more accounts after 1821.

What did your post have to do with the Beale mystery? That's your answer. You want to say that the Beale expedition was not possible because of the trade situation of that time. I said there was trade and travel at the time of the supposed Beale expedition. Your point is that it's impossible, and my point is that it's not impossible.
 

What did your post have to do with the Beale mystery? That's your answer. You want to say that the Beale expedition was not possible because of the trade situation of that time. I said there was trade and travel at the time of the supposed Beale expedition. Your point is that it's impossible, and my point is that it's not impossible.

First, you are badly mistaken as I have always argued that Americans were in the region before the alleged Beale mystery and that routes were already known. You will find this information from me in several post in these various threads that date quite a ways back. And you are wrong again, as my point has been, and still is, "The accumulated claims in the alleged Beale adventure were impossible!" This, of course, including the mining and refining of thousands of pounds of refined gold and silver from the described region during the era of 1817-1821. You are not, and have not, considered all of the various elements of the tale in accumulative fashion regarding the grand adventure. Which brings me back to my question in regards to the year 1821 and why this year caused entirely new flow of Americans into the region and beyond. Do you understand why?
 

You may not know it, but you just agreed with me, that the author gave the story AS true.
No the author did not present the story as true, he clearly stated the "the papers (Beale's letters to Morriss) which form the subject of THIS HISTORY"- THIS HISTORY being the self contained story in the novel.
If these alleged handwritten letters and ciphers were important documents of real history, what became of them? All that has ever been presented concerning the existence and content of these letters is what was printed in the job pamphlet.
Something this valuable and important would have been kept in a secure place, but their is no record of these letters as well as the entire Beale story that's exists outside of the authors imagination.
"The papers which form the subject of this history" provides the illusion that the Beale story contains an actual real history to the unwary reader, it is not an admission of the story's validity.
 

First, you are badly mistaken as I have always argued that Americans were in the region before the alleged Beale mystery and that routes were already known. You will find this information from me in several post in these various threads that date quite a ways back. And you are wrong again, as my point has been, and still is, "The accumulated claims in the alleged Beale adventure were impossible!" This, of course, including the mining and refining of thousands of pounds of refined gold and silver from the described region during the era of 1817-1821. You are not, and have not, considered all of the various elements of the tale in accumulative fashion regarding the grand adventure. Which brings me back to my question in regards to the year 1821 and why this year caused entirely new flow of Americans into the region and beyond. Do you understand why?

Then what was your point for posting that?
 

No the author did not present the story as true, he clearly stated the "the papers (Beale's letters to Morriss) which form the subject of THIS HISTORY"- THIS HISTORY being the self contained story in the novel.
If these alleged handwritten letters and ciphers were important documents of real history, what became of them? All that has ever been presented concerning the existence and content of these letters is what was printed in the job pamphlet.
Something this valuable and important would have been kept in a secure place, but their is no record of these letters as well as the entire Beale story that's exists outside of the authors imagination.
"The papers which form the subject of this history" provides the illusion that the Beale story contains an actual real history to the unwary reader, it is not an admission of the story's validity.

If he didn't present the story as true, then you and I are both wrong for saying so.
I didn't say letters and ciphers were important documents of real history. I said the author gives them as such. And you said the same thing.
 

I don't have an opinion on the Beale mystery, but I do know that gold mines were definitely lucrative in southern New Mexico during the time period in question, and before. Either intentionally or not, a mistake in identifying the mine's location would certainly confuse the issue.

Had the story placed the mines 250-300 miles south of Santa Fe instead of north, there is a reasonable possibility that the mines in question were those in the Santa Rita del Cobre/Pinos Altos district. Even though the "official" start date for the famous copper mine was 1800, there is reasonable circumstantial evidence that seems to indicate organized activities beginning ca 1750. Be that as it may, it is a documented fact that the early exploitation of this site (pre-Anglo involvement) yielded not only pure native copper for the harvesting, but also a high-grade ore that was also very rich in gold. In fact, the early maps identify the region as "gold and copper mines". Indeed, during the Spanish ownership of these mines, the entire shipping cost to caravan the copper ore from Santa Rita to the Chihuahua for minting into copper coins was borne by the ore's gold content. In addition, only ten miles away from Santa Rita del Cobre, in Pinos Altos, are the gold placer deposits that were "discovered" in 1860, but were obviously worked many years prior.

[OT: On another thread, I have discussed the only tangible evidence (other than talk) supporting the Doc Noss gold discovery claims originating in the Caballo Mountains. These are the "gold bar" assays that were run by a reputable assayer on bullion bars that Noss the scammer was trying to sell. These assays in fact identified high grade copper bars with two or three ounces of gold and a couple percent silver contained in the 40-pound copper ingots.

Interestingly, the assays are almost exactly in line with the early Santa Rita copper ore. How these ingots found themselves in the Caballos is unknown, but certainly is a good example of how much of our history can be missing or misinterpreted.]
 

We actually have evidence of trade and travel by white men in that area before that period. Not saying things didn't greatly improve after 1821, but these things were going on before that date.
But no one has evidence that the Beale expedition as related in the 1885 Beale Papers ever occurred.
One can, as has been done of various Beale threads, present anachronistic "documentation" that has no bearing on the Beale story and claim that maybe it is possible because others were named in that area, there were gold and silver mines in Colorado after the War of Northern Aggression, there once was a Texas iron mine according to a company press release, or that a 78 oz crystalized and gold flake nugget was on display at the Carbondale Bank, does not provide any supporting documentation that anything in the Beale story is true.
What has always been lacking has been direct evidence with Beale's name that can confirm beyond a reasonable doubt that the grand Beale adventure occurred outside of the dime novel pamphlet.
 

But no one has evidence that the Beale expedition as related in the 1885 Beale Papers ever occurred.
One can, as has been done of various Beale threads, present anachronistic "documentation" that has no bearing on the Beale story and claim that maybe it is possible because others were named in that area, there were gold and silver mines in Colorado after the War of Northern Aggression, there once was a Texas iron mine according to a company press release, or that a 78 oz crystalized and gold flake nugget was on display at the Carbondale Bank, does not provide any supporting documentation that anything in the Beale story is true.
What has always been lacking has been direct evidence with Beale's name that can confirm beyond a reasonable doubt that the grand Beale adventure occurred outside of the dime novel pamphlet.

But the evidence we have shows it to be possible. Now do you understand what I've been saying?

The rest of your post can be applied to your claim of dime novel. No proof.
 

If he didn't present the story as true, then you and I are both wrong for saying so.
I didn't say letters and ciphers were important documents of real history. I said the author gives them as such. And you said the same thing.
The difference in our opinions is that I stated he presented "this history" as a literary device to draw the unwary reader into the storyline he was developing.
 

The difference in our opinions is that I stated he presented "this history" as a literary device to draw the unwary reader into the storyline he was developing.

Which would mean he was trying to convince them that it was true. That means he was giving it AS true. Why are you now arguing against yourself?
 

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