Mines, Mines, and More Mines.

[ECS]

But the evidence we have shows it to be possible. Now do you understand what I've been saying?

The rest of your post can be applied to your claim of dime novel. No proof.

With the total lack of direct evidence that can confirm Beale's grand adventure and the others events of the story, what remains is a fictional novel created from the imagination of the author(s).
Simple logical deduction due to the absence of outside documentation.

 

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[Old Silver]

With the total lack of direct evidence that can confirm Beale's grand adventure and the others events of the story, what remains is a fictional novel created from the imagination of the author(s).

No, that's not the only other alternative. There are many possibilities.
But there actually is evidence for Beale's grand adventure, but it's circumstantial. No absolute proof. And that's all any of us have shown at this point.

 

[bigscoop]

But there actually is evidence for Beale's grand adventure,...

Where? That's the entire problem, not a single thing in support of the adventure, not even circumstantial support since nothing at all can be tied to Beale and his alleged party. And there it really is in a nutshell. So again, I think a lot of the differences come down to what each individual is willing to accept as evidence.

 

[Old Silver]

Where? That's the entire problem, not a single thing in support of the adventure, not even circumstantial support since nothing at all can be tied to Beale and his alleged party. And there it really is in a nutshell. So again, I think a lot of the differences come down to what each individual is willing to accept as evidence.

Yes, it depends on what each individual is willing to accept as evidence. Even when that evidence is clear. Again, that doesn't mean proof.

 

[bigscoop]

Yes, it depends on what each individual is willing to accept as evidence. Even when that evidence is clear. Again, that doesn't mean proof.

But this is what you're failing to accept.....this "circumstantial evidence" that you speak of is only considered "clear" by a few, and not quite so clear or cut and dried by others.

 

[Old Silver]

But this is what you're failing to accept.....this "circumstantial evidence" that you speak of is only considered "clear" by a few, and not quite so clear or cut and dried by others.

I'm saying it's clear CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence. Just as clear as any other circumstantial evidence that has come forward to this point. Other people here have claimed proof, but haven't shown proof. I don't claim proof, I only claim possibility. I have shown good evidence for the possibility. But again, it comes down to what people WANT to believe.

 

[bigscoop]

I'm saying it's clear CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence. Just as clear as any other circumstantial evidence that has come forward to this point. Other people here have claimed proof, but haven't shown proof. I don't claim proof, I only claim possibility. I have shown good evidence for the possibility. But again, it comes down to what people WANT to believe.

Let me try this a different way so you'll understand the position of some people in these forums.

"You CANNOT have circumstantial evidence relating to the accused if you can't even establish that the accused ever existed." To date nobody has been able to establish the existence of the accused, this meaning "Thomas J. Beale" and "his party" of adventurers. So circumstantial evidence to what, then? That there existed diggings in the region? Yes, even the Indians were known to have worked some diggings, so what? Yes, there were routes to and from, so what if you can't put Beale and his party on them? Yes, there was a Santa Fe and a St Louis, but so what as we can't put a "Thomas J. Beale" and "his party" in either place? And so on and so on. Thirty men in 1817-1821 traveled into the region and they returned with thousands of pounds of gold and silver each season for two strait years.....is there any such credible evidence that this had ever happened at any time before or during the period in this region? You get the point, I'm sure.

 

[Old Silver]

Let me try this a different way so you'll understand the position of some people in these forums.

"You CANNOT have circumstantial evidence relating to the accused if you can't even establish that the accused ever existed." To date nobody has been able to establish the existence of the accused, this meaning "Thomas J. Beale" and "his party" of adventurers. So circumstantial evidence to what, then? That there existed diggings in the region? Yes, even the Indians were known to have worked some diggings, so what? Yes, there were routes to and from, so what if you can't put Beale and his party on them? Yes, there was a Santa Fe and a St Louis, but so what as we can't put a "Thomas J. Beale" and "his party" in either place? And so on and so on. Thirty men in 1817-1821 traveled into the region and they returned with thousands of pounds of gold and silver each season for two strait years.....is there any such credible evidence that this had ever happened at any time before or during the period in this region? You get the point, I'm sure.

There is good evidence that "the accused actually existed." For the rest there is circumstantial, just the same as for all the other theories here.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

"OS", do YOU have written documentation that the TJB or ANY Mine(s) in Colorado 1818-1822...? I haven't found ANYTHING! NOTHING! Not here in Lynchburg, Va. nor in Colorado. ONLY Pike's Peak GOLD RUSH in 1858...

 

[franklin]

A good read of a ton of research on the Beale Treasure can be found at "Ask Beale 656725." A code breaker that did substantial research on the Beale Treasure. I can't copy and paste so you will have to google it.

 

[bigscoop]

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the accused actually existed. All there is is the narration...."PERIOD!" There are no direct references to this party or to a "Thomas J. Beale" of the era that can be directly connected to anything even close to the grand adventure, to Morriss, to Buford's, either region in question, Santa Fe, St. Louis, an adventuring party, a mine, or tons of gold and silver recovered from a mining operation, etc., etc. Quite clearly, the accused have still not been proven to even have existed. And that is a point of argument, a very fair point of argument, that you need to accept because it is very-very real.

 

[Old Silver]

"OS", do YOU have written documentation that the TJB or ANY Mine(s) in Colorado 1818-1822...? I haven't found ANYTHING! NOTHING! Not here in Lynchburg, Va. nor in Colorado. ONLY Pike's Peak GOLD RUSH in 1858...

This is not about Beale, but about the mines.

 

[Old Silver]

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the accused actually existed. All there is is the narration...."PERIOD!" There are no direct references to this party or to a "Thomas J. Beale" of the era that can be directly connected to anything even close to the grand adventure, to Morriss, to Buford's, either region in question, Santa Fe, St. Louis, an adventuring party, a mine, or tons of gold and silver recovered from a mining operation, etc., etc. Quite clearly, the accused have still not been proven to even have existed. And that is a point of argument, a very fair point of argument, that you need to accept because it is very-very real.

Then I guess that means another one of your theories is shot. How many does that make now? And you've been so sure of each of them that NOTHING else was possible. Remember?

Not proof, but some pretty good evidence. The people still living in 1885 that would have been living in 1820 should tell you that Beale was a real character, whether or not that was his real name. These people would have known if that were just a tale.

 

[bigscoop]

A bank gets robbed, one of your suspects banked there and drives a car that matches the description of the getaway vehicle. This is "circumstantial evidence", but only because the suspect can, in some way, be directly connected to the bank. In the case of the Beale mystery, what you're calling good evidence and circumstantial evidence isn't even evidence that can be applied to the mystery at hand because, thus far, there is no Thomas J. Beale or a party that can be connected to any of it.

 

[bigscoop]

What is possible, and what isn't possible based on "the evidence at hand." HUGE-HUGE difference here.

 

[Old Silver]

A bank gets robbed, one of your suspects banked there and drives a car that matches the description of the getaway vehicle. This is "circumstantial evidence", but only because the suspect can, in some way, be directly connected to the bank. In the case of the Beale mystery, what you're calling good evidence and circumstantial evidence isn't even evidence that can be applied to the mystery at hand because, thus far, there is no Thomas J. Beale or a party that can be connected to any of it.

I know what circumstantial means.

 

[ECS]

... The people still living in 1885 that would have been living in 1820 should tell you that Beale was a real character, whether or not that was his real name. These people would have known if that were just a tale.

That is the reason the Lynchburg descendants of Coles, Clay, and Witcher, including former CSA Lt Col Vincent A Witcher , highly objected to their ancestors names being used in a treasure dime novel. It has been claimed that pressure from these families convinced copyright agent Ward to cease future publications of the job pamphlet and burn all existing copies.
During this time, Charles W Button stated that his sub-editor of the LYNCHBURG VIRGINIAN, John William Sherman was the author of the Beale Papers dime novel.

 

[Old Silver]

That is the reason the Lynchburg descendants of Coles, Clay, and Witcher, including former CSA Lt Col Vincent A Witcher , highly objected to their ancestors names being used in a treasure dime novel. It has been claimed that pressure from these families convinced copyright agent Ward to cease future publications of the job pamphlet and burn all existing copies.
During this time, Charles W Button stated that his sub-editor of the LYNCHBURG VIRGINIAN, John William Sherman was the author of the Beale Papers dime novel.

It has been claimed? Did you actually just type those words? YOU?

 

[ECS]

...
But there actually is evidence for Beale's grand adventure, but it's circumstantial. No absolute proof...

The only account of Beale's grand adventure and treasure exists only in the alleged handwritten "letters" he sent to Morris, which, conveniently were seen only by Morriss and the "unknown" author, then disappeared, along with the original handwritten ciphers.
Even when an iron box was shown to Pauline Innis by an Otey family member, all that was in that box was a torn piece of paper with less than 20 numbers written on it. One would think that the original handwritten letters and ciphers would have been placed for safe keeping in that famous iron box, unless , of course, these handwritten letters and ciphers, were only the creation of the "unknown" author.

 

[Old Silver]

That is the reason the Lynchburg descendants of Coles, Clay, and Witcher, including former CSA Lt Col Vincent A Witcher , highly objected to their ancestors names being used in a treasure dime novel. It has been claimed that pressure from these families convinced copyright agent Ward to cease future publications of the job pamphlet and burn all existing copies.
During this time, Charles W Button stated that his sub-editor of the LYNCHBURG VIRGINIAN, John William Sherman was the author of the Beale Papers dime novel.

Enough said.