Mines, Mines, and More Mines.

[ECS]

... The Beale story says gold and silver, it says nothing about refining. And what I have is mining being done with primitive equipment, just like Beale would have had...

The "primitive equipment" that was in use during the 1817-1823 time period would have been shovels, pickaxes, sledgehammers, star drills, and a wheelbarrow, which are still in use today. Also a large amount of black powder would also been needed.
According to the Beale story, the original purpose of the grand adventure was to hunt buffalo, not to mine gold and silver, so it is safe to say that they did not pack these items.
Instead, the story states that they had to go to where Pike termed the "Spanish metropolis" on the southwest, Santa Fe, to obtain these supplies.
This bring forth the question how did they pay for these supplies- United States currency was NOT accepted by the Spanish government or the local merchants, and after selling the goods, would not the merchant turn these Anglos in to the Spanish authorities?
Then during the actual mining process, additional tools would be required to cut timbers to shore up the mine walls to prevent cave ins. The shoring process alone would consume vast amounts of time before any ore could be retrieved.
Then the story states gold and silver, not gold and silver ore, extracting these metals from the ore is another time consuming activity, especially in the field utilizing "primitive" means.
So much of this portion of the Beale story does not hold up to the scrutiny of documented facts of that time period.

 

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[Old Silver]

You do not have "anything" from the era of the Beale papers.
Yes, mines existed in Colorado, and yes, precious metals were eventually discovered and mined, but nothing in comparison to the "accumulated" Beale adventure claim and story, and nothing even close to that claim "during the effected era of 1817-1821." The well documented mining history of the region along with science clearly concludes that you are living a fantasy that just wasn't possible, and for many "accumulated" reasons. Those letters are clearly a fabrication by someone who didn't even understand the real world limitations and processes for mining silver from the region. How can someone mine tons of refined silver and gold from the region when there were no known process for doing so? Come on man, you have to know this just wasn't possible in the alleged quantities detailed in that fantastical tale during the party's alleged activities in the region described during the era described. It's a fairy tale....a fabricated treasure tale, and nothing more.

What do you think primitive tools are? If a pile of gold/silver ore is mind WITHOUT MODERN EQUIPMENT, it doesn't matter WHEN the mining took place, because it's done with tools that would have been used in 1818-1822. Yes, I have plenty of proof that people mined in huge quantities with such tools, and all anyone has to do is read it. Why you want to continue saying it's not true, I don't know. And you continue to say refined gold/silver, as if that's what I'm saying. Why do you do that? I never claimed anything was refined, and neither does the Beale Papers. Only you. You say the well documented mining history of the region along with science clearly concludes that I'm living a fantasy that just wasn't possible. The actual documented facts show that these thing did take place, WITHOUT MODERN TOOLS. The fantasy would be the inability to accept those facts, because you have other ideas that you like better. You can ignore the facts, and you can deny the facts, but you can't change the facts.

And you also want to dismiss the fact that gold prices were almost the same in 1820 as they were in the 1890s, and silver prices were even higher in 1820 than the 1890s. That's more than you want to believe.

Again, if the author of the Beale Papers didn't know about mining in the affected area, then I am left to think he might have been telling a true story, because what he claims in the story has been shown to be possible. Otherwise, he would have been trying to sell people on a fabricated tale, which is also possible, but then he would have done a little better research, don't you think? I mean, he gives this story as a true story, so why would he go to such pains and then just throw out whatever came to mind about the mining operations? That doesn't make sense. Do you now consider the author not so intelligent? You said before he was an intelligent man.

 

[Old Silver]

But you did not present documented evidence of the 1817-1823 time period, but information from a later date.
Also, James Beverly Ward's Great Uncle, John Pickrell Risque , had intensive knowledge of mining operations in that area, and was killed by Indians in 1882 while inspecting mines at Gold Gulch, Arizona by Indians.
It is very possible Ward gained basic mining knowledge from his Great Uncle.

At that later date there is documented evidence that people mined huge amounts WITH THE SAME KIND OF EQUIPMENT THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN USED IN 1820. Read it for yourself. Not only this, but also check gold and silver prices in 18 20, then check them for the 1890's. You'll see that gold was just slightly less in 1820 then 1890s, and silver was higher in 1820 than 1890s.

Okay then, if Ward had such knowledge, then why did he/they give such "bad" information in the Beale Papers concerning mining in 1818-1822?

 

[Old Silver]

The "primitive equipment" that was in use during the 1817-1823 time period would have been shovels, pickaxes, sledgehammers, star drills, and a wheelbarrow, which are still in use today. Also a large amount of black powder would also been needed.
According to the Beale story, the original purpose of the grand adventure was to hunt buffalo, not to mine gold and silver, so it is safe to say that they did not pack these items.
Instead, the story states that they had to go to where Pike termed the "Spanish metropolis" on the southwest, Santa Fe, to obtain these supplies.
This bring forth the question how did they pay for these supplies- United States currency was NOT accepted by the Spanish government or the local merchants, and after selling the goods, would not the merchant turn these Anglos in to the Spanish authorities?
Then during the actual mining process, additional tools would be required to cut timbers to shore up the mine walls to prevent cave ins. The shoring process alone would consume vast amounts of time before any ore could be retrieved.
Then the story states gold and silver, not gold and silver ore, extracting these metals from the ore is another time consuming activity, especially in the field utilizing "primitive" means.
So much of this portion of the Beale story does not hold up to the scrutiny of documented facts of that time period.

Nothing you just referred to is impossible, or even necessarily unlikely. But you have in your mind what you want to believe, so that's going to be YOUR FACTS, regardless what anything else shows.

 

[ECS]

Further details were not required to advance the storyline beyond the mention of gold and silver.

 

[ECS]

Well it won't be a Feb16, 1894 newspaper article about a 87 oz crystalized and flake gold nugget discovered at Farnoum Hill near Leadville, Co as documentation to prove the mining part of the Beale story as being possible.

 

[Old Silver]

Well it won't be a Feb16, 1894 newspaper article about a 87 oz crystalized and flake gold nugget discovered at Farnoum Hill near Leadville, Co as documentation to prove the mining part of the Beale story as being possible.

Right you are. As I said, you have YOUR FACTS, and that's the way it's going to be. Nothing anyone can say, or show, will turn around your thinking.

 

[Old Silver]

Further details were not required to advance the storyline beyond the mention of gold and silver.

I disagree. Any writer would want more than that, and would use more than that, in a fictional novel.

 

[bigscoop]

Lets break down the great discovery and adventure.


As the story goes, the gold and silver was discovered in a ledge, just as with many other lost treasure tales. What this means is that veins of gold and silver were discovered in this ledge, these veins passing through the various types of host rock much like the veins in one's leg passes through the flesh, muscle, etc., these veins then carrying different levels of impurities from the surrounding host rock. In order to remove this gold and silver from the host rock these veins must be followed and they must be broken and dug away from the surrounding matrix, this initial effort producing ore of various assay. This is where the alleged Beale discovery and adventure (and the alleged mining operation) starts to run into some serious problems.


Because these veins of silver and gold are forced toward he surface from considerable depths in liquid form, those veins closest to the surface are generally the least pure simply because they have passed through so much host rock and all of the various elements associated with it, the cooling process also becoming quicker the closer these liquids get to the surface and as they start to slow down under less pressure, this then trapping more impurities. This is why most of the purest veins are found at considerable depths.


Erosion. As time passes, and since silver and gold are both soft metals, they tend to erode away first until they are released from the host rock and likewise carried down hill into those flowing watersheds where placer gold is often found. It fact, it is this trail of placer gold that has often lead hopeful miners to the “mother lode” or “source” much higher up. Once the mother lode has been discovered this is where “hard rock mining” starts to come into play as the source must be followed into and through the host rock in order to find the purest metals, and hopefully the remaining larger source. Though there are exceptions this is the general manner as to how silver and gold is formed and the how “lode” is located, followed, and recovered in the region in question during the era in question.


Refining. This is the HUGE million dollar problem in the grand Beale adventure, not to mention the general problems and issues associated with hard rock mining during the era and the region in question. Also recall, that according to the tale, for at least half of the year the party was absent half, and one third, of it's number, these absences being associated with Beale's travels and his returns to the east. So right from the very start adjustments have to be accounted for in the actual amount of time that the entire party could have been mining and once this is done suddenly we are down to just a few months.
And as for the refining of the alleged gold and silver, well this represents the absolute sharpest dagger in the tale, as has already been detailed many times over on this thread.


Pickaxes, shovels, sledge hammers, explosives, quick silver, and the list goes on and on, items that a buffalo hunting party certainly didn't have in the required quantity, santa Fe no doubt being unable to fulfill all of this required equipment as well on such short notice, Santa Fe not exactly being the mining capital of New Spain at the time despite what many wish to believe, but just for giggles let's go ahead and entertain this anyway.


So here we have Beale and what remains of the party, Americans no less, shopping through Spanish Santa Fe for all of the required items referenced above, this New Spain mining capital and all of it's resident miners never taking notice or bothering to follow these Americans to their new and fantastical strike that required so much mining essentials. Nor did any of the officials in Spanish Santa Fe object, refuse, or bother to investigate the situation. “Sure, here you go, and go right ahead you lucky devils, we're not the least bit interested.” OK, so it certainly happened that way because the tale says it did.


So here we are now, at the mining site, everyone working their hands and backs to the bone to mine silver ore they can't even refine without considerable loss, the blast from the dynamite never being heard or question by the surrounding inhabitants, the falling of numerous trees for the making of trusses never being noticed as well. While half of the party, of those who still remain, so a total of perhaps seven for part of the year, are tending to the horses and ox and camp and meals, lookout duty, etc., etc., etc., the remaining six or seven continue to dig into and through the hard granite for more “pure ore”, tons of it in fact. Really? People really buy into all of this? In total, horses and everything else that would be required, just how much supply would it take to support this operation and these thirty men for at least two years and where did all keep coming from? The August train, perhaps?


Thirty men, plus Morriss, that's thirty-one shares, but what of the poor guide? Ooops! Guess the author forgot about him, as so often happens in these type of treasure tales. And so on and so on and so on.....

 

[Old Silver]

Lets break down the great discovery and adventure.


As the story goes, the gold and silver was discovered in a ledge, just as with many other lost treasure tales. What this means is that veins of gold and silver were discovered in this ledge, these veins passing through the various types of host rock much like the veins in one's leg passes through the flesh, muscle, etc., these veins then carrying different levels of impurities from the surrounding host rock. In order to remove this gold and silver from the host rock these veins must be followed and they must be broken and dug away from the surrounding matrix, this initial effort producing ore of various assay. This is where the alleged Beale discovery and adventure (and the alleged mining operation) starts to run into some serious problems.


Because these veins of silver and gold are forced toward he surface from considerable depths in liquid form, those veins closest to the surface are generally the least pure simply because they have passed through so much host rock and all of the various elements associated with it, the cooling process also becoming quicker the closer these liquids get to the surface and as they start to slow down under less pressure, this then trapping more impurities. This is why most of the purest veins are found at considerable depths.


Erosion. As time passes, and since silver and gold are both soft metals, they tend to erode away first until they are released from the host rock and likewise carried down hill into those flowing watersheds where placer gold is often found. It fact, it is this trail of placer gold that has often lead hopeful miners to the “mother lode” or “source” much higher up. Once the mother lode has been discovered this is where “hard rock mining” starts to come into play as the source must be followed into and through the host rock in order to find the purest metals, and hopefully the remaining larger source. Though there are exceptions this is the general manner as to how silver and gold is formed and the how “lode” is located, followed, and recovered in the region in question during the era in question.

Everything you say here can apply to the people who did this very thing, and it's documented.

Refining. This is the HUGE million dollar problem in the grand Beale adventure, not to mention the general problems and issues associated with hard rock mining during the era and the region in question. Also recall, that according to the tale, for at least half of the year the party was absent half, and one third, of it's number, these absences being associated with Beale's travels and his returns to the east. So right from the very start adjustments have to be accounted for in the actual amount of time that the entire party could have been mining and once this is done suddenly we are down to just a few months.
And as for the refining of the alleged gold and silver, well this represents the absolute sharpest dagger in the tale, as has already been detailed many times over on this thread.

I'm not talking about refining. Why are you still talking about it?

Pickaxes, shovels, sledge hammers, explosives, quick silver, and the list goes on and on, items that a buffalo hunting party certainly didn't have in the required quantity, santa Fe no doubt being unable to fulfill all of this required equipment as well on such short notice, Santa Fe not exactly being the mining capital of New Spain at the time despite what many wish to believe, but just for giggles let's go ahead and entertain this anyway.

And you know all this by personal experience? You were around in 1820 Santa Fe?

So here we have Beale and what remains of the party, Americans no less, shopping through Spanish Santa Fe for all of the required items referenced above, this New Spain mining capital and all of it's resident miners never taking notice or bothering to follow these Americans to their new and fantastical strike that required so much mining essentials. Nor did any of the officials in Spanish Santa Fe object, refuse, or bother to investigate the situation. “Sure, here you go, and go right ahead you lucky devils, we're not the least bit interested.” OK, so it certainly happened that way because the tale says it did.

Actually the tale says something different than you're trying to make it say. It says that someone DID know what they were doing. It also says that the party disappeared and never returned. Yes, I know, the author was just making that up, but how do you know that for sure?

You first say that the operations would be dwindled down to a few months due to the party being absent for a short while. But then you later ask, "just how much supply would it take to support this operation and these thirty men for at least two years?" So which is it, bigscoop, a few months, or at least two years? It depends on which one helps YOUR theory, doesn't it?

So here we are now, at the mining site, everyone working their hands and backs to the bone to mine silver ore they can't even refine without considerable loss, the blast from the dynamite never being heard or question by the surrounding inhabitants, the falling of numerous trees for the making of trusses never being noticed as well. While half of the party, of those who still remain, so a total of perhaps seven for part of the year, are tending to the horses and ox and camp and meals, lookout duty, etc., etc., etc., the remaining six or seven continue to dig into and through the hard granite for more “pure ore”, tons of it in fact. Really? People really buy into all of this? In total, horses and everything else that would be required, just how much supply would it take to support this operation and these thirty men for at least two years and where did all keep coming from? The August train, perhaps?


Thirty men, plus Morriss, that's thirty-one shares, but what of the poor guide? Ooops! Guess the author forgot about him, as so often happens in these type of treasure tales. And so on and so on and so on.....

It was the wilderness, and it was Louisiana Purchase area. AND, they never returned. Someone did know.

 

[ECS]

Everything you say here can apply to the people who did this very thing, and it's documented...

You keep saying that it is documented, but all the "documentation" that you have posted is at least 60 years after the "Beale Period", except for the James Cockrell non-existent mine, and the Bessemer Co newspaper press release of 1894 that claims a 1823 Indian Massacre at a Texas iron mine.
Stating that because something happened in the 1880's+ makes it possible that it could of happened in the 1820's, does not make it possible or probable.
It is totally irrelevant information to the discussion, that proves nothing at all.

 

[Old Silver]

You keep saying that it is documented, but all the "documentation" that you have posted is at least 60 years after the "Beale Period", except for the James Cockrell non-existent mine, and the Bessemer Co newspaper press release of 1894 that claims a 1823 Indian Massacre at a Texas iron mine.
Stating that because something happened in the 1880's+ makes it possible that it could of happened in the 1820's, does not make it possible or probable.

You're still not getting it. What I have shown are people mining huge amounts WITHOUT MODERN EQUIPMENT. They were using the type of equipment that the Beale party would have used. Even when you look at the later accounts that DID use modern equipment, look at how much they took out, IN DOLLAR AMOUNT, IN ONE DAY, and this was when gold was just barely worth more than it had been in 1820. And silver was worth less that it had been in 1820. Why can't you get this?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

WAS it the "Louisiana Purchase area" ...? Santa Fe was still Spanish, I thought; where Beale & Associates "went" was "Indian Territory", hmmm...

 

[ECS]

We understand that, but it is as I mentioned, irrelevant to the discussion and has no bearing on the alleged events of Beale in 1820.

 

[Old Silver]

WAS it the "Louisiana Purchase area" ...? Santa Fe was still Spanish, I thought; where Beale & Associates "went" was "Indian Territory", hmmm...

Santa Fe was Spanish territory, but the area where the mines are was Louisiana Purchase.

 

[Old Silver]

We understand that, but it is as I mentioned, irrelevant to the discussion and has no bearing on the alleged events of Beale in 1820.

If you understood it you would know what I'm saying. I have clearly stated that none of this means the Beale expedition happened. What it DOES mean is that it was possible to mine large amounts of gold and silver ore in the Colorado mining area, at anytime before modern equipment existed.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

WAS it the "Louisiana Purchase area" ...? Santa Fe was still Spanish, I thought; where Beale & Associates "went" was "Indian Territory"; Territory of Colorado - 2/28/1861 & a STATE (of the "Union") - 8/1/1876. Hmmm...

 

[Rebel - KGC]

We understand that, but it is as I mentioned, irrelevant to the discussion and has no bearing on the alleged events of Beale in 1820.

Disagree... gotta know "What-is-What; It was "INDIAN COUNTRY", 1817-1822...

 

[Old Silver]

WAS it the "Louisiana Purchase area" ...? Santa Fe was still Spanish, I thought; where Beale & Associates "went" was "Indian Territory"; Territory of Colorado - 2/28/1861 & a STATE (of the "Union") - 8/1/1876. Hmmm...

Yes. Colorado had not yet become a state, but the mining area was LP territory. Check out this 1810 map.

 

[releventchair]

Disagree... gotta know "What-is-What; It was "INDIAN COUNTRY", 1817-1822...

Until 1890 Indian country was any still defended.
To the Euro perspective..in the early eighteen-hundreds Indian "territory" was most land West of the Mississippi and till mid eighteen hundreds ..with 1851 reservation system a tentative deal to protect westward expansion/wagons.
Considering the military's involvement in such protection ...civilians could expect trouble when in small groups..





Indian Country