Mines, Mines, and More Mines.

[Old Silver]

But we're not talking "ore"....instead, "silver & gold" is clearly being the detailed hook to the entire narration. If ore was the subject then there is no possible way that the author of C2 could be so certain how much "gold & silver" he even possessed in all of that "ore" unless each individual piece of that ore had been assayed, which then brings us to the subject of time and volume. Even if his ore was of an extremely high assay, say 50%, then all of the detailed weights in C2 would have to be doubled just so he could arrive at the amount of "gold & silver" he claims he has deposited. On top of this, and has already been mentioned a couple of times now, how does one go about trading ore, an ore that has little chance of being refined without a great deal of loss, for jewels? What jeweler in his right mind would trade for an ore that he has no means to refine without suffering substantial loss, if he even had the resources to refine it in the first place, which is extremely doubtful, not to mention that he certainly wasn't going to refine it anywhere close to St. Louis without sure risk of starting the next silver rush, which clearly never happened. Such a HUGE and timely trade itself would have certainly cancelled any chance of keeping the alleged party's secret a secret. So quite clearly the letters are simply a fabrication by someone who didn't possess intimate knowledge about the subject of silver and it's existing refining issues.

Why would you extremely doubt that this guy/s would not have the resources to refine ore? Do you know who the guy was? If not, I don't see any possible reason for your extreme doubts. If the story is true, this guy had $13,000 dollars worth of jewels to trade. He sounds like a guy with resources to me.

Such a HUGE and timely trade itself would have certainly cancelled any chance of keeping the alleged party's secret a secret. So quite clearly the letters are simply a fabrication by someone who didn't possess intimate knowledge about the subject of silver and it's existing refining issues.

How many times do we need to cover this? The alleged party WAS NOT KEPT SECRET. Beale not only said that someone had found out, but also the party disappeared, never to return. If you don't believe the Beale story, then why do you come up with things that support it?

 

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[bigscoop]

Why would you extremely doubt that this guy/s would not have the resources to refine ore? Do you know who the guy was? If not, I don't see any possible reason for your extreme doubts. If the story is true, this guy had $13,000 dollars worth of jewels to trade. He sounds like a guy with resources to me.



How many times do we need to cover this? The alleged party WAS NOT KEPT SECRET. Beale not only said that someone had found out, but also the party disappeared, never to return. If you don't believe the Beale story, then why do you come up with things that support it?

Because we know beyond any shadow of doubt that there were no known efficient processes for refining the silver from this region until about 40 - 50 years later, these earlier processes yielding as much as a 70% loss in some cases, with a 50% loss being common. So how was this jeweler, or whoever it was, going to refine this ore once "all of it" had been assayed and traded? Without a process to refine it then there are no resources to refine it. It's that darn simple. Your author is asking you to believe that the alleged party, or the alleged trader of the jewels, had the means to refine the silver when there were no know means (resources) for doing so during the period.
Conclusion = "impossible!"

 

[Old Silver]

Because we know beyond any shadow of doubt that there were no known efficient processes for refining the silver from this region until about 40 - 50 years later, these earlier processes yielding as much as a 70% loss in some cases, with a 50% loss being common. So how was this jeweler, or whoever it was, going to refine this ore once "all of it" had been assayed and traded? Without a process to refine it then there are no resources to refine it. It's that darn simple. Your author is asking you to believe that the alleged party, or the alleged trader of the jewels, had the means to refine the silver when there were no know means (resources) for doing so during the period.
Conclusion = "impossible!"

No way possible, huh?

 

[bigscoop]

How many times do we need to cover this? The alleged party WAS NOT KEPT SECRET. Beale not only said that someone had found out, but also the party disappeared, never to return. If you don't believe the Beale story, then why do you come up with things that support it?

Your interpretation of the American language is vastly different then mine, I guess. Beale never says that anyone had found out about anything, only that they he anticipated that the would. And the "alleged party" disappeared because that's what the author clearly want's his readers to believe, just as with countless other treasure tales in the old west. "The letters" are clearly fabricated, the author if those letters not even harboring the intimate knowledge as to the real world difficulties and limitations of mining and refining the silver from the region in which he suggest that it came. Again, if you would take the required time to do the in-depth research regarding these two factors you would start to understand why so many have switched their prior opinions concerning these elements of the story to the "impossible" side of the debate.

 

[Old Silver]

About the earlier processes yielding as much as a 70% loss in some cases, with a 50% loss being common. Notice how rich those specimens were. And this is just one of many examples. In fact, they were calling some of it pure gold when they were mining it, although it was in fact just extremely rich ore.

Highland recorder., February 16, 1894. Notice this says this was done by ONE MAN, and in ONE HOUR, and it was taken out IN CHUNKS. Not the great machines you refer to, but ONE MAN...ONE HOUR...IN CHUNKS.
View attachment 1301837

 

[Old Silver]

Your interpretation of the American language is vastly different then mine, I guess. Beale never says that anyone had found out about anything, only that they he anticipated that the would. And the "alleged party" disappeared because that's what the author clearly want's his readers to believe, just as with countless other treasure tales in the old west. "The letters" are clearly fabricated, the author if those letters not even harboring the intimate knowledge as to the real world difficulties and limitations of mining and refining the silver from the region in which he suggest that it came. Again, if you would take the required time to do the in-depth research regarding these two factors you would start to understand why so many have switched their prior opinions concerning these elements of the story to the "impossible" side of the debate.

Actually, I'm simply going by what was stated. It needs little interpretation. "WOULD DO" seems pretty clear to me.

The author if those letters not even harboring the intimate knowledge as to the real world difficulties and limitations of mining? In light of what I have presented in documented evidence, if the author was creating a hoax, then he would have had pretty good knowledge of mining in the area, because it's clearly in line with my documents. So, as if you say, he DIDN'T have such knowledge, then he must have been telling something true.
If you would take the time to read the evidence, you'd see what I'm saying. You may not admit it, but you'd have to see it.

 

[ECS]

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/beale-codes/496093-indian-massacre-miners-working-1823-a.html

If you read the above thread, with all the links, you should be able to see what I've been talking about. And remember, the price of gold in 1820 was almost as much as it was in the 1890's. The price of silver in 1820 was even more than it was in the 1890's. I have more, but this should be enough. Also remember, I'm not claiming this as proof that the Beale expedition happened. I'm simply showing that the amounts of gold and silver ore in that area and time, especially with 30+ men, were possible.

That was A DAILEY HERALD newspaper article Brownsville, Texas June 15, 1894
The title:
STORY OF A TEXAS MINE
SUPPOSED TO HAVE BEEN WORKED BY THE SPANISH MANY YEARS AGO.
"that mine was a rich one is so state in the letter on file in Monterey. It is called an "almagres" mine in that letter...a mine that contains a rich leadoff precious metal, covered in a body of iron".
That area in Texas is known for its iron deposits, not for gold or silver, and the article never explains what "precious metal" is covered in a body of iron.
If this story is true, it was probably an iron mine.

 

[Old Silver]

That was A DAILEY HERALD newspaper article Brownsville, Texas June 15, 1894
The title:
STORY OF A TEXAS MINE
SUPPOSED TO HAVE BEEN WORKED BY THE SPANISH MANY YEARS AGO.
"that mine was a rich one is so state in the letter on file in Monterey. It is called an "almagres" mine in that letter...a mine that contains a rich leadoff precious metal, covered in a body of iron".
That area in Texas is known for its iron deposits, not for gold or silver, and the article never explains what "precious metal" is covered in a body of iron.
If this story is true, it was probably an iron mine.

That was the opening post of this thread. It does show that massacres occurred. We can speculate what kind of mine it was.

 

[bigscoop]

Actually, I'm simply going by what was stated. It needs little interpretation. "WOULD DO" seems pretty clear to me.

The author if those letters not even harboring the intimate knowledge as to the real world difficulties and limitations of mining? In light of what I have presented in documented evidence, if the author was creating a hoax, then he would have had pretty good knowledge of mining in the area, because it's clearly in line with my documents. So, as if you say, he DIDN'T have such knowledge, then he must have been telling something true.
If you would take the time to read the evidence, you'd see what I'm saying. You may not admit it, but you'd have to see it.

First, what are you considering to be, "documents?" All types of he-said she-said, especially newspapers, should be taken with an obvious grain of salt for obvious reasons. Old books, many of these were written in second or third voice as well, so again, grain of salt in these cases. So what actual "documents" do you refer concerning the "effected period?"

 

[Old Silver]

First, what are you considering to be, "documents?" All types of he-said she-said, especially newspapers, should be taken with an obvious grain of salt for obvious reasons. Old books, many of these were written in second or third voice as well, so again, grain of salt in these cases. So what actual "documents" do you refer concerning the "effected period?"

Yeah, until it's something that supports YOUR theory.
When there are multiple accounts (I have many) of the same things being done, you can trust it. It happened.

 

[ECS]

First, what are you considering to be, "documents?" All types of he-said she-said, especially newspapers, should be taken with an obvious grain of salt for obvious reasons. Old books, many of these were written in second or third voice as well, so again, grain of salt in these cases. So what actual "documents" do you refer concerning the "effected period?"

THE DAILY HERALD "Story of a Texas Mine"-June 15, 1894 was information supplied by officers of the BESSEMER Co. and reads like a promotional piece for that company. The Bessemer Process was an inexpensive method of converting pig iron into steel, and the Texas area mentioned was known for its iron deposits, so the mine mentioned was definitely an iron mine.
As for the 1823 Massacre of miners- the second part of the title-""Supposed To have been worked by the Spanish many years ago", does have the feel of "legend" to beef up the story.
As with the Cockrell story, not the strong documented evidence required to achieve a solid conclusion of the presented premise.

 

[Old Silver]

THE DAILY HERALD "Story of a Texas Mine"-June 15, 1894 was information supplied by officers of the BESSEMER Co. and reads like a promotional piece for that company. The Bessemer Process was an inexpensive method of converting pig iron into steel, and the Texas area mentioned was known for its iron deposits, so the mine mentioned was definitely an iron mine.
As for the 1823 Massacre of miners- the second part of the title-""Supposed To have been worked by the Spanish many years ago", does have the feel of "legend" to beef up the story.
As with the Pickrell story, not the strong documented evidence required to achieve a solid conclusion of the presented premise.

That opening post is not the documented evidence I'm talking about. The evidence I'm talking about is the discussion, with links, that developed as the thread progressed. You can't miss it.

 

[lastleg]

I am a Texan and have studied its history and I can tell you gold and silver are not abundant neither
on the surface or underground which has been examined almost to the breaking point by the oil
and gas industry all in pursuit of any substance worthy of extracting. Now the gold scam LLano
hoopla is amusing to all but the inhabitants of that small area. Tiny amounts of placer gold around
certain creeks have created a stir hardly worth a mention. Some landowners have capitalized by
allowing people to pan and detect for a generous fee while oldtimers roll their eyes and either
chuckle or grimace. Most are plainly sick of slick promoters and their schemes. Pull up Gold in
Llano, TX and read the accounts for yourself.

Using old newspaper stories of the yellow journalism era are hardly grounds for establishing facts.

 

[Old Silver]

I am a Texan and have studied its history and I can tell you gold and silver are not abundant neither
on the surface or underground which has been examined almost to the breaking point by the oil
and gas industry all in pursuit of any substance worthy of extracting. Now the gold scam LLano
hoopla is amusing to all but the inhabitants of that small area. Tiny amounts of placer gold around
certain creeks have created a stir hardly worth a mention. Some landowners have capitalized by
allowing people to pan and detect for a generous fee while oldtimers roll their eyes and either
chuckle or grimace. Most are plainly sick of slick promoters and their schemes. Pull up Gold in
Llano, TX and read the accounts for yourself.

Using old newspaper stories of the yellow journalism era are hardly grounds for establishing facts.

The massacre at that Texas mine shows that such massacres were occurring. The evidence I speak of is not that Texas mine, as I said before. After that opening post, the thread developed into a discussion about the Colorado gold/silver mines, and whether it was possible for a large party of men to have mined 4 tons of gold/silver in the space of 3 years. I have produced much evidence to show that it was possible.

You can't accept real evidence when it's presented. If you had a fraction of this kind of evidence, you'd be whistling a different tune.

 

[ECS]

Yet all that has been cited on this thread as documentation is the James Cockrell story of a mine that never was, and an article about the Bessemer iron mine that reads like a newspaper press release.

 

[Old Silver]

Yet all that has been cited on this thread as documentation is the James Cockrell story of a mine that never was, and an article about the Bessemer iron mine that reads like a newspaper press release.

Really? I think you might have looked at the wrong thread.

 

[Old Silver]

Yet all that has been cited on this thread as documentation is the James Cockrell story of a mine that never was, and an article about the Bessemer iron mine that reads like a newspaper press release.

Just for understanding, I'm not claiming to have documented evidence of the Beale treasure. I do have documented evidence concerning the Colorado mines. The amounts of gold/silver claimed by the Beale story, if ore, is possible to have been mined in that area, at that time, with primitive tools, by a large party of men, in the space of 3 years. That doesn't mean that it happened, it simply means that it's possible.

 

[bigscoop]

You do not have "anything" from the era of the Beale papers.
Yes, mines existed in Colorado, and yes, precious metals were eventually discovered and mined, but nothing in comparison to the "accumulated" Beale adventure claim and story, and nothing even close to that claim "during the effected era of 1817-1821." The well documented mining history of the region along with science clearly concludes that you are living a fantasy that just wasn't possible, and for many "accumulated" reasons. Those letters are clearly a fabrication by someone who didn't even understand the real world limitations and processes for mining silver from the region. How can someone mine tons of refined silver and gold from the region when there were no known process for doing so? Come on man, you have to know this just wasn't possible in the alleged quantities detailed in that fantastical tale during the party's alleged activities in the region described during the era described. It's a fairy tale....a fabricated treasure tale, and nothing more.

 

[ECS]

...

The author if those letters not even harboring the intimate knowledge as to the real world difficulties and limitations of mining? In light of what I have presented in documented evidence, if the author was creating a hoax, then he would have had pretty good knowledge of mining in the area, because it's clearly in line with my documents. So, as if you say, he DIDN'T have such knowledge, then he must have been telling something true.
If you would take the time to read the evidence, you'd see what I'm saying...

But you did not present documented evidence of the 1817-1823 time period, but information from a later date.
Also, James Beverly Ward's Great Uncle, John Pickrell Risque , had intensive knowledge of mining operations in that area, and was killed by Indians in 1882 while inspecting mines at Gold Gulch, Arizona by Indians.
It is very possible Ward gained basic mining knowledge from his Great Uncle.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

But you did not present documented evidence of the 1817-1823 time period, but information from a later date.
Also, James Beverly Ward's Great Uncle, John Pickrell Risque , had intensive knowledge of mining operations in that area, and was killed by Indians in 1882 while inspecting mines at Gold Gulch, Arizona by Indians.
It is very possible Ward gained basic mining knowledge from his Great Uncle.

PV "said" that FC Hutter did... (was FC's Great Uncle, TOO).