Mines, Mines, and More Mines.

[Old Silver]

What really seals the bogus nature of the pamphlet is that gold in that quantity along with silver in
that quantity aren't found together in nature. All OS has to do is visit the Denver museum of
Colorado mining and ask the curator if massive native gold and silver deposits have ever been
discovered in situ in a single mine in Colorado or any other place in North America.


I know OS wouldn't believe him either because he desperately wants to swallow the legend
whole. We've all been there in our formative years but eventually we learn to strain out
the gnats.

You haven't done the research on this, or you would know how wrong your statements are. I have done the research, and I know that those quantities of gold and silver ore are possible, and even greater quantities. All you have done here is show that you haven't found the information I have found. I'm not in my formative years of treasure research. If I were, I'd be making posts like yours, trying to talk about things I know nothing about. Just do the research, and look at the documented research that others have done, and see that you really don't have an argument.

 

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[Old Silver]

I have documented evidence that shows there were great quantities taken out of mines in the area, by primitive tools. Any museum curator that wouldn't accept documented facts should find another job.

 

[bigscoop]

No, he didn't say if, or when. Read it again. He said, "as they would do." That was spoken looking back on what had happened - someone found out. You want to change the story to fit what you want to believe, or disbelieve.

Are you saying such stories of massacres didn't exist? They did. But of those "countless other treasure tales," such as cave treasures you mentioned, you never answered whether or not that includes Robert O. Willis of Kentucky.

Dude, you need to read it again for the "suggestive statement" that it is. He is speaking in anticipation of that "possible event", he very clearly is not saying that it had already happened. The author wants you to entertain the notion, just as he does with the mention of Indian massacres, etc. As for the mention of the cave, was the one Willis entertained known to everyone, frequented often, and even used to store goods, just as the one you're author ridiculously presents in his alleged letters? If you believe these intelligent men as portrayed in the Beale story really considered such a cave to hide their fantastical wealth then they had to be the dumbest miners/adventurers to ever swing a pickax. Thirty men of means and a county hot spot was the best hiding place they could muster?

 

[bigscoop]

I have documented evidence that shows there were great quantities taken out of mines in the area, by primitive tools. Any museum curator that wouldn't accept documented facts should find another job.

A) No, you don't. This all goes back to the vast differences between gold and silver and the mining of each in the region during the "effected period" that I had encouraged you to investigate further for yourself.

 

[Old Silver]

Dude, you need to read it again for the "suggestive statement" that it is. He is speaking in anticipation of that "possible event", he very clearly is not saying that it had already happened. The author wants you to entertain the notion, just as he does with the mention of Indian massacres, etc. As for the mention of the cave, was the one Willis entertained known to everyone, frequented often, and even used to store goods, just as the one you're author ridiculously presents in his alleged letters? If you believe these intelligent men as portrayed in the Beale story really considered such a cave to hide their fantastical wealth then they had to be the dumbest miners/adventurers to ever swing a pickax.

Think about the word, "would." As they "would" do. Anyone should be ably to understand that. No, he wasn't saying that it HAD ALREADY happened, but that it WOULD happen, and that was in context of where and when he was referring to. They were discussing what to do with the treasure, and in relation to that discussion he said someone WOULD (future tense) ascertain. He is telling about it after it happened, but he puts it in the context of the discussion:

"Some advised one plan, some another. One recommended Santa Fé as the safest place to deposit it, while others objected, and advocated its shipment at once to the States, where it was ultimately bound to go, and where alone it would be safe. The idea seemed to prevail, and it was doubtless correct. that when outside parties ascertained, as they would do, that we kept nothing on hand to tempt their cupidity, our lives would be more secure than at present."

As for the mention of the cave, was the one Willis entertained known to everyone, frequented often, and even used to store goods, just as the one you're author ridiculously presents in his alleged letters?

No. If it had been, I'd say the guy would have found another location. Does that remind you of anything? You know the Beale story says they abandoned the idea of the cave, for the very reasons you cite. You argue against your own argument.

 

[ECS]

A) No, you don't. This all goes back to the vast differences between gold and silver and the mining of each in the region during the "effected period" that I had encouraged you to investigate further for yourself.

Also neglected in one's claims of research, is that this was Comanchee territory, and how long did they stay without being discovered by this warrior-hunter tribe.
Then the weight of the amount of the gold and silver and how many wagons and drafting teams required to pull the load.
Then there is the slow journey back to St Louis, once again through Comanchee territory without ever being caught.
Reread the James Pickrell posted link, NO silver mine in 1823, but they had a Native-American encounter.
Oh yes, the Beale party encountered "friendly Indians" that were all to happy to aid them mining gold and silver on Native-American land.
That is a major clue that the Beale adventure never happened.

 

[Old Silver]

A) No, you don't. This all goes back to the vast differences between gold and silver and the mining of each in the region during the "effected period" that I had encouraged you to investigate further for yourself.

No, you don't? Tell me bigscoop, have you always possessed this omniscience, or is it a recent development?
You encouraged me to investigate further? I found things you didn't know existed, and you had to deny them in order to save face, because it showed you were wrong about your idea.
By "effected period" you mean a time when miners used primitive tools. I have proof of men mining with primitive tools and having the same kind of success as Beale and party is said to have had. It's documented, so if you want to not believe that, then fine.

 

[ECS]

I have documented evidence that shows there were great quantities taken out of mines in the area, by primitive tools. Any museum curator that wouldn't accept documented facts should find another job.

That's in the same category of a researcher that uses the source material to prove the source material is true.

 

[Old Silver]

That's in the same category of a researcher that uses the source material to prove the source material is true.

I'm not referring to the source material.

 

[bigscoop]

The entire Beale tale is perpetuated on the bases of a lost mine of fantastical proportions with no known survivors, only someone remaining to tell of the fantastical treasure that still remains to be found, sound familiar?

The only difference between the Beale treasure tale and all of those other fantastical treasure tales is the manner in which it is cleverly narrated, and that's it. "The effected period" = 1817 -1821. The mining history of the entire period from the early 1800's and beyond in the region described is well documented, just as the processes of that mining history are. Your fantastical treasure tale is based on "gold & silver" and not gold and silver ore, the prior being "impossible" in the region described during the effected period (1817-1821) as there were no efficient processes to refine the SILVER from that region until many-many years later. This is all cold hard "documented" fact. And the list of "real world" limitations against such claims as described in the grand Beale adventure goes on and on. These cold hard facts clearly establish that the grand adventure as detailed in the alleged Beale letters is clearly a fabricated treasure tale, nothing more, just like so many others that are all designed around the same principles of good treasure story telling. There's a reason why all of these fantastical lost mine stories continue to survive without eventual discovery. Hard to find something that never existed, couldn't have existed, in the first place.

 

[bigscoop]

No, you don't? Tell me bigscoop, have you always possessed this omniscience, or is it a recent development?
You encouraged me to investigate further?

Glad you inquired. A couple of years ago we had put together plans to travel several states in search of raw mineral resources for at least a full year, one of these states being Colorado. The year prior to our scheduled departure was spent researching all manner of resources on the subjects to be pursued, one of these being silver. Tell me, in all of your research how often have you ever come across the topic of silver panning, for example? Kind of a curious question, isn't it. Even today you will frequently encounter the topic of gold panning, but silver panning? This question presenting just one of those comparable differences between gold and silver formation and recovery.

At my son's, and still in totes, I have a small library of various books, both historical and scientific, on the subject of gold and silver formation and the various recovery methods, etc. I spent a full year researching all of this information plus endless resources on the internet and elsewhere, a great deal of this focus being on the region in question in Colorado as we had planned to have our base of operations in the center of that same state. I'll try to get over to my son's later this week to gather those books and materials now that I have a place for them here and once I have them I'll give you some of those references so you can do the same type of extended research. One book in particular is very informative as it encompasses the life work of a man who spent a great deal of his time in the region documenting all of the various mining histories, methods, processes, etc., within the region. I think you'll be floored and enlightened by the true nature and histories of these early silver mining operations.

 

[releventchair]

You haven't done the research on this, or you would know how wrong your statements are. I have done the research, and I know that those quantities of gold and silver ore are possible, and even greater quantities. All you have done here is show that you haven't found the information I have found. I'm not in my formative years of treasure research. If I were, I'd be making posts like yours, trying to talk about things I know nothing about. Just do the research, and look at the documented research that others have done, and see that you really don't have an argument.

3% silver in some Colorado tellurides/ calaverite.
Cresson mine Cripple Creek sample in pic..)



A great mix of effects in Colorado in terms of mineral distribution causes.
A history of lead being sought should exist prior to gold/silver/diamonds just for practicalities sake..
Till smelters were more common in later sixties ,silver mining was ,in most part delayed.

 

[Old Silver]

The entire Beale tale is perpetuated on the bases of a lost mine of fantastical proportions with no known survivors, only someone remaining to tell of the fantastical treasure that still remains to be found, sound familiar?

The only difference between the Beale treasure tale and all of those other fantastical treasure tales is the manner in which it is cleverly narrated, and that's it. "The effected period" = 1817 -1821. The mining history of the entire period from the early 1800's and beyond in the region described is well documented, just as the processes of that mining history are. Your fantastical treasure tale is based on "gold & silver" and not gold and silver ore, the prior being "impossible" in the region described during the effected period (1817-1821) as there were no efficient processes to refine the SILVER from that region until many-many years later. This is all cold hard "documented" fact. And the list of "real world" limitations against such claims as described in the grand Beale adventure goes on and on. These cold hard facts clearly establish that the grand adventure as detailed in the alleged Beale letters is clearly a fabricated treasure tale, nothing more, just like so many others that are all designed around the same principles of good treasure story telling. There's a reason why all of these fantastical lost mine stories continue to survive without eventual discovery. Hard to find something that never existed, couldn't have existed, in the first place.

A lost mine story is not the same thing as a buried cache story. They are two different animals. The focus of the lost mine story is the mine itself, and searchers are concerned primarily, or exclusively, with finding the mine. A buried cache is not the focus of the lost mine story. A buried cache story, on the other hand, is not so concerned with a mine, at least not as it's main focus. How many Beale treasure searchers have you known that went searching for the mine/s rather than for the buried cache? In either case It's the thing that's been lost that's the focus, whether it's the mine, or the cache, but it's not usually both. The Beale story's focus is on the treasure cache, not the mine/s.

I have documentation that shows the possibility of mining, with primitive tools, the amounts of gold and silver that the Beale story claims. You know as well as I do that the Beale story doesn't say they refined anything. It doesn't say ore either, but common sense tells you that ore is what would be mined with primitive tools. You can't bring yourself to admit this, because that would mean you were wrong. Like I said before, I have no proof that the Beale treasure is real. I'm not even necessarily saying I believe it. But when you consider ore instead of pure, I have proof that the gold and silver COULD HAVE been mined as claimed. My arguments are not that the Beale story is 100% true as told, but simply that it's possible. I have no problem with anyone not believing the story, It's the inane arguments against it that I dispute.

 

[Old Silver]

Glad you inquired. A couple of years ago we had put together plans to travel several states in search of raw mineral resources for at least a full year, one of these states being Colorado. The year prior to our scheduled departure was spent researching all manner of resources on the subjects to be pursued, one of these being silver. Tell me, in all of your research how often have you ever come across the topic of silver panning, for example? Kind of a curious question, isn't it. Even today you will frequently encounter the topic of gold panning, but silver panning? This question presenting just one of those comparable differences between gold and silver formation and recovery.

At my son's, and still in totes, I have a small library of various books, both historical and scientific, on the subject of gold and silver formation and the various recovery methods, etc. I spent a full year researching all of this information plus endless resources on the internet and elsewhere, a great deal of this focus being on the region in question in Colorado as we had planned to have our base of operations in the center of that same state. I'll try to get over to my son's later this week to gather those books and materials now that I have a place for them here and once I have them I'll give you some of those references so you can do the same type of extended research. One book in particular is very informative as it encompasses the life work of a man who spent a great deal of his time in the region documenting all of the various mining histories, methods, processes, etc., within the region. I think you'll be floored and enlightened by the true nature and histories of these early silver mining operations.

The guy who did the history on those mining operations says that the articles written were wrong? I'm talking about actual articles written at the time. And I have a lot of them. If you have a "historian" who claim these articles to be wrong, then I'm going to have to tell you, you need to be careful who you listen to. I'm talking about documented proof that gold and silver ore was mined in the amounts that make the Beale claim possible, in the very mining area of the Beale story. With primitive tools. It's Documented.

This reminds me of the scientists who use to say the Bumble bee can't fly, because his body isn't designed for flight. But the Bumble bee didn't know that, so he just kept on flying.
Well, it's a good thing your "experts" weren't around back in the day to tell the miners they couldn't mine with primitive tools. They didn't know they couldn't do it, so they just kept doing it. And I have proof.

 

[Old Silver]

3% silver in some Colorado tellurides/ calaverite.
Cresson mine Cripple Creek sample in pic..)
View attachment 1309735


A great mix of effects in Colorado in terms of mineral distribution causes.
A history of lead being sought should exist prior to gold/silver/diamonds just for practicalities sake..
Till smelters were more common in later sixties ,silver mining was ,in most part delayed.

Again, I'm talking about ore. And miners did mine it, as I have documents to show.

 

[releventchair]

Again, I'm talking about ore. And miners did mine it, as I have documents to show.

Right ,my impression was you were stating that gold and silver were being mined in the same matrix.
The 3 % silver in the pic I presented is in with gold in the same matrix .

Show a higher percentile of silver to gold mined together , and how it would relate to the story's ratio's if you like.

30 men and more horses needed fed and watered.
Larger bore weapons than there was a need for back east were required out west ,particularly in buffalo hunting.
Given time of party's outward bound trip ,how far were buffalo from St. Louis ,and what supplies would be needed ....?
With horses being a bigger prize than scalps each night alone would require the utmost protection of stock.
No cheating a horse for long . At times they must feed . With out proper grazing the weight of grain must be tolerated.
Unlike Indian ponies that ate more of other items .
Lead provided a means of defense and of acquiring meat.
Only so much weight allowed to tax men and horses. Water and lead, dried meat when available (after lots of work ) and powder first.
Your horses,their condition and numbers varying are going to factor in additional weight.
Plus the logistics of moving sitting ducks through unknown territories.
Sure it would have been possible.
Not without some of the best skills in multiple party members.
Married recruits? Not likely ,or less than well monied members, or not the most fit mentally and physically.
That leaves young rich men that were single or else one crazy sponsor or sponsors.
Poking around for precious lead when short supplied ..maybe.
Prospecting on a hunting expedition ,perhaps ; by a geologist.
Still ,math of weight limits and keeping horses and wagons in numbers and serviceable still required ,easy as it might seem today , before hauling ore in any great amounts.

 

[Old Silver]

Sure it would have been possible.

Thank you. That's my main argument. No one is saying it happened, just that it was possible. The white man has traveled the western rout since we've been on this continent, with all the perils and hardships you mentioned.

 

[bigscoop]

In all of the research I've personally done over the years I have yet to encounter a "documented" case of a lucrative silver mining operation in the region in question during the period (1817-1821) in question. A lot of Bob-said Bill-said type stuff, but nothing credible. Sure, there are loads of old newspaper articles and stories touting these type of operations and discoveries and lost fortunes, etc., etc., etc. but nothing of a credible "documented" nature. Nor have I ever come across a documented case of an efficient refining process for silver during this same period for the region and era in question, quite the opposite, indeed. Even into the 60's mining operations were bringing in experienced alchemist and chemist and engineers from all over the world in search of those processes with little result. Modern science says it wasn't possible, "documented" mining history clearly says it wasn't possible, and yet in 1817-1821 the Beale party did it, and more, with unimaginable success and precision against all odds of reality. OK......then you best keep believing in that Beale mine then.

 

[Old Silver]

In all of the research I've personally done over the years I have yet to encounter a "documented" case of a lucrative silver mining operation in the region in question during the period (1817-1821) in question. A lot of Bob-said Bill-said type stuff, but nothing credible. Sure, there are loads of old newspaper articles and stories touting these type of operations and discoveries and lost fortunes, etc., etc., etc. but nothing of a credible "documented" nature. Nor have I ever come across a documented case of an efficient refining process for silver during this same period for the region and era in question, quite the opposite, indeed. Even into the 60's mining operations were bringing in experienced alchemist and chemist and engineers from all over the world in search of those processes with little result. Modern science says it wasn't possible, "documented" mining history clearly says it wasn't possible, and yet in 1817-1821 the Beale party did it, and more, with unimaginable success and precision against all odds of reality. OK......then you best keep believing in that Beale mine then.

I didn't say I believed in "that Beale mine." The fact that you keep saying that shows that you have no argument.

Modern science says it wasn't possible? Would that be the same scientists who claimed that the Bumble bee couldn't fly? ANYONE, scientist or not, who claims anything against documented proof is simply wrong.

Documented mining history clearly says it wasn't possible? I am in possession of documented mining history that proves it possible, because people were doing that very thing, in that very area, without modern equipment.

 

[bigscoop]

I didn't say I believed in "that Beale mine." The fact that you keep saying that shows that you have no argument.

Modern science says it wasn't possible? Would that be the same scientists who claimed that the Bumble bee couldn't fly? ANYONE, scientist or not, who claims anything against documented proof is simply wrong.

Documented mining history clearly says it wasn't possible? I am in possession of documented mining history that proves it possible, because people were doing that very thing, in that very area, without modern equipment.

You have people mining in the region after the described period, but even then, still not REFINING SILVER IN THE REQUIRED EFFICIENCY AND AMOUNTS!!!! This is the real history and the real science of the situation.

Also, what is at debate here are the letters, the ones that detail the discovery and working of the alleged gold and silver operation, or hard rock mine, so you either put stock in those letters or you don't. Which is it? If you don't put stock in the alleged Beale mine then this means that you agree that the author of those letters wasn't telling the truth, so, what on earth makes you think Santa Fe, St. Louis, or any of the rest of those letters are true in the face of so much contrary evidence and the complete lack of any supporting evidence? Those letters are a yarn, a treasure tale that leaves you with only one survivor to pass the tale along but only after he is dead and unable to dispute it. Sound familiar?