Metal Detectiing TN. cave / Anybody done this?

[mojotrout]

greetings,

What a great story, thanks for sharing with us all. I have a few comments and suggestions --take them as you will. I am a wildlife biologist by training, with years of bat work, so I am familiar with caves and mines. I also do quite a bit of archeology work, although I am no expert on aboriginal cultures in the TN area. So here are some of my observations--

--Most of the formations in the cave are likely a result of hydrological forces over time. Keep in mind water flow in a limestone formation will change volume and course as it slowly erodes and deposits materials. Areas that are currently much higher than the stream bed might be inundated during spring run-off or earlier in the cave's formation. I dont see anything structural in the photos that look man-made. Im no expert however.

--you should be careful, for sure, but natural caves are usually structurally sound (mines are a whole different ball game). Your biggest threats in these things are getting stuck, falling down a vertical opening, or getting exposed to dangerous gases seeping into the cave.

--If you wish to "map" the cave's depth, get a large roll of string/cord and tie one end to something at the opening and place the spool on your belt. This will allow you to measure how far into the cave you go (measure the length of string that unrolls as you travel into the cave). One can also use a laser rangefinder to measure height and width of the cave, but that might be a bit cumbersome and expensive. The string can also help you find your way back if you start finding intersections in the tunnels...

--I doubt you have to worry about critters anymore. Like another poster said, your continued presence there over the past several weeks is more than enough to keep any dangerous mammal away.

--The presence of bats often (but not always) suggests that there is another opening to the cave. It would be more telling if bats were present during the winter though (try not to disturb them too much during winter though--it is very bad for them to be "awoken" during hibernation and TN has several endangered bat species). Bats need constant cool temps in order to regulate their metabolism both daily and seasonally. Caves that lack airflow (only one entrance) usually get too hot for bats to do this. Again, this isnt real important to them in summer, but it is crucial in winter. In any event, lots of bats generally means you might have another entrance/exit to this cavity.

--dont use propane/butane lanterns in a cave. If air flow is not adequate, you could asphyxiate yourself.

--If there was significant long term Native American activity in this cave, you would see signs of this in the form of: smoke stains from fires on the ceiling near the mouth of the cave; lithic material (small to medium-sized flakes of rocks produced as a by-product of tool making) located in the habitable areas of the cave. I realize the water/flooding would move much of this material to the downhill area of the cave opening, but repeated use over time means these same flood waters should be uncovering older lithic materials previously buried. I think your trespasser was digging "test-pits" looking for NA tools and artifacts. The areas most likely to turn up these items would be along the walls, away from spaces that would provide the "common" area or sleeping area of the cave. After all, who wants to sleep/stand/hang out in an area littered with sharp stone fragments and other litter? NA-occupied caves often have a midden or two (trash dump) that you will find broken tools, unused or broken bones and other waste materials. Im not convinced that the one pic you showed of a stone tool is actually a man-made object, but there are people much more experienced than me with the material culture of NA peoples in your area. Id ask them (I believe there is a forum on TNet).

--Regarding the etchings: Im stumped! They are cool though! Has there been much military activity in your area (civil war, indian wars, etc)? Decades ago, I found a cave on the WV side of Potomac River near Harper's Ferry that had some etchings and a few initials and dates from 1863 and 1864. We thought perhaps some civil war soldiers were using it as a hideout or just a dry place to stay. Maybe that is where your graffiti came from?

--Any photos of any artifacts, fossils, or wildlife (those lizards and bats!) would be welcomed!

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I hope they add something to this very interesting and very exciting thread!

Cheers

 

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[Limitool]

MOJOTROUT…. Thanks for the interest and comments--

--Most of the formations in the cave are likely a result of hydrological forces over time. Keep in mind water flow in a limestone formation will change volume and course as it slowly erodes and deposits materials. Areas that are currently much higher than the stream bed might be inundated during spring run-off or earlier in the cave's formation. I don't see anything structural in the photos that look man-made. I'm no expert however. You may very well be right and probably are. But I do know someone a LONG TIME AGO moved some soil around to make a path to more easily access this part of cave instead of going around "horseshoe bend" where the 1st 3 mounds are seen with the etched one in the background. These mounds may be "naturally" build but you can see the debris piles where they were shaped somewhat. None of the others around corner have any straight edges or sit on sunken soil. Who knows…?

--you should be careful, for sure, but natural caves are usually structurally sound (mines are a whole different ball game). Your biggest threats in these things are getting stuck, falling down a vertical opening, or getting exposed to dangerous gases seeping into the cave. No doubt your right here. I've already been WAY BACK into this cave 3 times years ago. I just stayed in spring bed, went slow and looked around. Stuck was the only thing I came close to. This meaning I couldn't turn around at all for a LONG TIME. This area began after the artisan well was found.

--If you wish to "map" the cave's depth, get a large roll of string/cord and tie one end to something at the opening and place the spool on your belt. This will allow you to measure how far into the cave you go (measure the length of string that unrolls as you travel into the cave). One can also use a laser rangefinder to measure height and width of the cave, but that might be a bit cumbersome and expensive. The string can also help you find your way back if you start finding intersections in the tunnels... Zero intersections or choices. And I did use your string idea to measure how far back the etched mound was located. It worked great.

--I doubt you have to worry about critters anymore. Like another poster said, your continued presence there over the past several weeks is more than enough to keep any dangerous mammal away. I agree with this also… But this pertains to the main cave I enter and prance around in (no problem). But the other small entrance leading into another cavern is up out of the way of the main one I use but still part of it. It's probably 15' away. I'm not up or near this area… Am I close enough to detour activity…? If I make another entrance from the outside into this cavern but enough to get a halogen light into and look around I'll be happy. Anything in there can come on out the "main" entrance then.

--The presence of bats often (but not always) suggests that there is another opening to the cave. It would be more telling if bats were present during the winter though (try not to disturb them too much during winter though--it is very bad for them to be "awoken" during hibernation and TN has several endangered bat species). Bats need constant cool temps in order to regulate their metabolism both daily and seasonally. Caves that lack airflow (only one entrance) usually get too hot for bats to do this. Again, this isn't real important to them in summer, but it is crucial in winter. In any event, lots of bats generally means you might have another entrance/exit to this cavity. During winter I've seen around 6-7 bats about 40 yards inward. Not very many. During my 3 trips going DEEP into cave I've seen no bats much past the main entrance. But the 1 time I went WAY, WAY back I finally saw 3 bats on ceiling. I believe there is another entrance either small and or large around.

--dont use propane/butane lanterns in a cave. If air flow is not adequate, you could asphyxiate yourself. I do now believe there is good airflow within. Only because maybe I was foolish in my first attempt and found out.

--If there was significant long term Native American activity in this cave you would see signs of this in the form of: smoke stains from fires on the ceiling near the mouth of the cave; lithic material (small to medium-sized flakes of rocks produced as a by-product of tool making) located in the habitable areas of the cave. I realize the water/flooding would move much of this material to the downhill area of the cave opening, but repeated use over time means these same flood waters should be uncovering older lithic materials previously buried. I think your trespasser was digging "test-pits" looking for NA tools and artifacts. The area's most likely to turn up these items would be along the walls, away from spaces that would provide the "common" area or sleeping area of the cave. After all, who wants to sleep/stand/hang out in an area littered with sharp stone fragments and other litter? NA-occupied caves often have a midden or two (trash dump) that you will find broken tools, unused or broken bones and other waste materials. I'm not convinced that the one pic you showed of a stone tool is actually a man-made object, but there are people much more experienced than me with the material culture of NA peoples in your area. I'd ask them (I believe there is a forum on TNet). There was long term activity because even a novice can tell there was some large fires built by the entrance. The ceiling bears this evidence. There is about a 5-6 foot circle burned into the ceiling and this circle has worked its way about 1-3" into the ceiling from center outward. Before the 2010 landslide you could see where anybody could have sat outside and worked on tools, cleaned food and had plenty of room. Running water was always available. There is even a stone "sink". And there are obvious sleeping areas all over by the fire area up and out of the wet area. And the "tool" I haven't a clue if it is or not as you stated. Just found by the fire area in the stream bed.

--Regarding the etchings: Im stumped! They are cool though! Has there been much military activity in your area (civil war, indian wars, etc)? Decades ago, I found a cave on the WV side of Potomac River near Harper's Ferry that had some etchings and a few initials and dates from 1863 and 1864. We thought perhaps some civil war soldiers were using it as a hideout or just a dry place to stay. Maybe that is where your graffiti came from? That very well may be what this is… I have no idea I'm trying to learn. Now we're back to the mounds and this one etched one. If seen in person… it is different. It's etched (so what??), squared up with debris around and behind it and its bottom is not natural with the cave floor as the others. Man made, maybe not…. altered?... it does appear that way (as compared to others). I don't have a clue and admit it…. but I'm going to learn soon.

--Any photos of any artifacts, fossils, or wildlife (those lizards and bats!) would be welcomed! Boy this cave is ALIVE. Frogs, crayfish, lizards, crickets, spiders and some bats. We saw one lizard way back unlike any I have ever seen. Was out of camera film then.

Thanks for your input and thoughts…. Brad

 

[Limitool]

UPDATE: For what it's worth (I hope good). Got some good help coming. 1st. I got my 6" black light today to try and photo mound in this format. Maybe it will help... maybe not. 2nd. Got other topo map today and hooked up with the first one Frank ordered. You did good Frank. You actually got 50% of it and now I have the other 50%. "Great minds" work alike. Ok... lets let that comment go (please). 3rd. Tomorrow morning I'm head to MI. to pick up my 14 y.o. Grandson for his annual TN summer visit. This "kid" is larger than me (good worker). And he's geeked about going back to cave and helping me possibly opening up another opening into the other cavern from the outside. A long ago landslide I believe helped close off the other cavern from an outside entrance. This is not going to be an easy task (especially on me) but I feel it needs to be done or tried. Even from the "main" entrance you can see it goes back a ways and opens into.... ?? YES, I'm "hell bent" Frank... I just got to know. You just don't know until you "push it" to its limit". Guess it comes from my past "glory days" of running state championships in track/field, achieving a U.S. Gov. patent, shooting professional archery and then crawling back into a cave you have NO IDEA of what's coming ahead. Anybody who's done anything at a very high level understands the "drive". I know Frank... your thinking this is now approaching a "thin line" on this endeavor... and your right... no doubt. What's safer, crawling back (which I could do or digging) Want to help dig?? Later.. Brad

 

[Erik in NJ]

The horrible historic floods here in 2010 caused an overhead landslide above cave and pushed 3-4 large oak trees over the cave enterence and downward. This covered up some of the bedrock the streambed ran within. Mother nature is cleaning it up slowly though... but I may have to help. Dinosaur bones were all around. One was huge with a hip and leg bone together. It's under that debris field now.

Hi Brad,

Just out of curiosity, how much work is involved in removing all or parts of the debris field from this landslide? Sounds like some salient artifacts were covered up by it. Congrats on getting the light--please look into the Festool light I posted a link to--it's awesome and very bright and compact. I also bought a pair of PivotHead video glasses which may work well for you as they will allow you to free up your hands. They are a bit pricey, but work very well. I like them.

Best, Erik

 

[Limitool]

Hi Brad,

Just out of curiosity, how much work is involved in removing all or parts of the debris field from this landslide? Sounds like some salient artifacts were covered up by it. Congrats on getting the light--please look into the Festool light I posted a link to--it's awesome and very bright and compact. I also bought a pair of PivotHead video glasses which may work well for you as they will allow you to free up your hands. They are a bit pricey, but work very well. I like them.


Best, Erik

Eric... It is a BIG DEAL... a real big deal. One look at it and you'd be so bummed out (as I am). I am so sorry I didn't work on this outside area LONG AGO. Mother nature is slowly cleaning it up. But it won't be in our lifetime (without help). The photo I posted awhile back of the entrance of this cave would not even be recognized today. Earlier before 2010, from the cave entrance all the way down to the bottom of the ridge (maybe about 150' +) the water exiting the cave flowed freely down the ridge and their were various places where you could have sat, cleaned food and had a fire outside and slept. This downward water path was rock based but today it is all changed. The 2010 floods really changed this area and the ridge bottoms because of the historic runoffs. I used to be able to just "walk" up from the ridge bottom right up to the cave entrance... This option is now gone. At least for a long time. I think if this entire area would have been gone over carefully first and then excavated further many artifacts could / would have been found. But to see it now makes this a really "hard sell" to believe. But if I'm right about this then if I went into cave entrance and started to carefully excavate some should show up. That's coming soon. I just got to investigate the areas around those mounds better first. And while my Grandson is here try and open up the other cavern from the outside. And then I really want to crawl back and photo the other etchings way back.

And Eric I did check out your link for the light and thank you. FYI all... I DO check everyone's ideas and links and greatly appreciate them. This light is out of my range for now. Just wish I had an army of people to help... Thanks Eric for thoughts.... Brad

 

[huntsman53]

To those who have offered clues into the etchings meanings and to everyone else here on TNnet,

Imagine for a minute, if only for that allotted time, that myself and Brad are illiterate when it comes to etchings on mud mounds in caves or on anything for that matter. We both find some of your' postings cryptic and really need further information and leading to understand what you are saying! We both believe that the etchings are a map to something and how to get there but without the kind of knowledge some of you possess, we are totally lost and dumbfounded. Since we already know that too much information has already been shared and may have led to the other person or persons finding the cave (and I believe with help possibly from the Caving Society that Brad contacted earlier) and digging into some of the dried mud piles, we believe that further communication regarding deciphering the etchings should be done via PM's. I believe that you will agree that due to the circumstances, this would be best! We do not plan to shut everyone on TNnet out from this adventure, we just believe that certain details need to be kept under wraps per see. We plan to share much more information and as well as any finds with everyone here but within reason, if you understand what I mean. Therefore, both Brad and myself ask that if you or anyone else can help us on this quest, please do so in PM's. We are not asking you to keep everything off TNnet, just certain information that might aid someone else in circumventing our' quest.

We want to thank each and everyone of you for the helpful information, advice, ideas and comments! Whether you know it or not, we have read all of the posts and taken all of the information, advice, ideas and comments seriously even when some of it seems confusing to us.

As Brad stated, he will be leaving for Michigan tomorrow morning but will be back late this weekend. Until he gets back, you can PM me and I will forward the information on to Brad, so that he will have it when he gets back or you can PM both of us.


Frank

 

[yelnif]

Hello Brad and Frank, excellent thread and adventure. Many others have offered you some outstanding advise with safety being foremost.
I think I may have an viable lighting source for you. On fee-bay if you type in "12 volt led flood light" you will see some square bodied lights. I mounted 2 of these-12 volt, 10 watt flood lights as back up lights on my plow truck- they really light things up behind you at night.
the first pic is w/o flash


second pic with flash


third pic is 12 volt,10 w led flood light/ without flash


They run @ 11 bucks each but are advertised to last for 60,000 hrs . My thought was that if you can acquire a 12v lawn mower battery(lighter than car battery) this light would give you plenty of illumination for your photo's.

HH yelnif

 

[Limitool]

Hey yelnif.... thank you for the information. What I tried last time was with a 12V lawn mower battery and a headlamp from a car. I just thought it would really light it up but I was wrong... real wrong. The headlamp idea was just way to directional. I need something that spreads light out in all directions. Do you believe your lights would do better than a car headlamp? And yes some folks have sent some real good ideas and some I just can't afford right now. Going to rest up from my long trip the past 3 days and head back with my grandson soon the see if we can maybe get a video of the front of the cave and the unexplored cavern offshoot near the entrance. Hopefully we can maybe make a hole big enough from the outside and shine a halogen light beam into and see "something" or just enter from the outside. I'll post a photo of my "failed" light try. Thanks, later.... Brad

 

[russ]

cave hunt

enjoy mate but if I were you , don,t go alone ,take a good mate or relative, mainly for safety,but also as a witness...good luck

 

[yelnif]

Yes Brad- rest up- hope your trip was uneventful and am glad to hear your grandson is excited about joining you on this adventure. It will be one to remember for both of you as well as Frank- I'm sure.
your automotive headlamp is designed with a focal point whereas the LED flood light just projects a wash of light- and it is very bright. The light is uniform in illumination at an angle of 120 degrees. Being a LED it also has very low current drain and therefore the battery charge will last much longer than using a headlight. I think you will be pleased with the performance. The ones I have are only 10 watt but the make them up to 100 watt. They cost more $$$ but probably would make it seem like you had brought the sun back into the cave-lol.
If you decide to try an dig in from the outside- just remember that what is uphill above you might become unstable because of the removal of what is supporting it- possibly another hill slide in the making. BE CAREFUL !!!
HH yelnif

Hey yelnif.... thank you for the information. What I tried last time was with a 12V lawn mower battery and a headlamp from a car. I just thought it would really light it up but I was wrong... real wrong. The headlamp idea was just way to directional. I need something that spreads light out in all directions. Do you believe your lights would do better than a car headlamp? And yes some folks have sent some real good ideas and some I just can't afford right now. Going to rest up from my long trip the past 3 days and head back with my grandson soon the see if we can maybe get a video of the front of the cave and the unexplored cavern offshoot near the entrance. Hopefully we can maybe make a hole big enough from the outside and shine a halogen light beam into and see "something" or just enter from the outside. I'll post a photo of my "failed" light try. Thanks, later.... Brad

 

[Limitool]

Yes Brad- rest up- hope your trip was uneventful and am glad to hear your grandson is excited about joining you on this adventure. It will be one to remember for both of you as well as Frank- I'm sure.
your automotive headlamp is designed with a focal point whereas the LED flood light just projects a wash of light- and it is very bright. The light is uniform in illumination at an angle of 120 degrees. Being a LED it also has very low current drain and therefore the battery charge will last much longer than using a headlight. I think you will be pleased with the performance. The ones I have are only 10 watt but the make them up to 100 watt. They cost more $$$ but probably would make it seem like you had brought the sun back into the cave-lol.
If you decide to try an dig in from the outside- just remember that what is uphill above you might become unstable because of the removal of what is supporting it- possibly another hill slide in the making. BE CAREFUL !!!
HH yelnif

Thank you very much for the info... I'll probably wait till the 1st of the month to order a different bright light (outside of the black light) to attempt to photo the etched mound again. But... I can try to enter the other part of the cave up front. Yes... I've thought about the "landslide" possibly but I believe it very minimal. We'll go very slow. We really don't have to dig very far... I believe. I just got to know what's in there or NOT in there. Thank you.... Brad

 

[JeromeAz]

After the storm of 2010 how much is left to slide down if any?

 

[Limitool]

After the storm of 2010 how much is left to slide down if any?

Good point Clay.... ANSWER: Very little.... in this spot (now). So can anything slide down...? I don't know (for sure)... but very little can be "unstable" to what I'd like or need to move. This especially after 2010's floods. Anything else loose has (hopefully) slide downward during the last 3 years thus far also (and has). I just hope we don't have to dig a long ways and/or hit rock to stop us. I know believe this area used to be open to enter from the outside and former landslides closed it off. Brad

 

[Limitool]

The plan tonight is for my grandson and I to head back on Thursday morning and try to dig an outside entrance into the "other cavern". Hopefully we can get a hole to see within. I'm going to wait to go back and re-photo the mound again until I get another light source to try along with using the black light (payday on the 1st.) At that point I'm going to "probe" around this mound and MD it in detail.

 

[DocBeav]

Any good updates man?

 

[Limitool]

Any good updates man?

TODAY IS THE DAY TO ASK.... Good timing guy. I have been feeling ill since I returned from MI. last Sunday? Anyway.. today my grandson, my friend Jordon and I headed on back to the cave. We took a shovel and pick ax to just leave for future use. My friend Jordon has a "helmet cam" with 4 hrs. of possible video and is an ADVENTUER...! He's 23, my grandson 13, and me (older than dirt) headed on back. At least I feel that way now. Our goal today was to "film" from the entrance all the way back to "the crack". And we did do this all the way in and back. The entire time was around a 2hrs.:30min. trip. Now during this time we did discover other etching upon mud walls as we went back that I NEVER saw before. May be long post if I decide to tell all right now. 1st... The mound which I have shared thus far has not been MD'd around it's base or surrounding area yet. Rain was everywhere today and I didn't bring it (it will be difficult). I took the black light I bought back and it was worthless in which to film the mound in this way (my fault I guess). Here's what we discovered today about the etched mound that I have shared with you all and it's hard to grasp and or make sense of. When Frank, Chelsea and I went back we "looked" with lights around this mound a month ago. But today we had better lights and paid more attention and there is a small/medium tunnel behind the mound which goes back into the cave wall behind it a long ways. NOW... there are other small tunnels also around this cave also. But if this was at one time a water induced/created crevasse (which I believe) then... why is this squared off shaped etched mound in FRONT OF IT? We found 2 more further back etched with "tunnels" behind them also (??). It's very weird what we discovered today and so HARD to follow up on. Please be very patient and we'll get back soon. Going back into the environment we did today is NOT for the faint hearted... but somebody did long ago.

Ok.... Jordon is now home recuperating as my grandson and I are now. Folks it is NO EASY TASK GOING AS FAR AS WE DID TODAY. There is much more to share. Jordon is going to edit video and we'll discuss and then post to YouTube with a link here on TreasureNet. I'd like to THANK ALL that is still following this.... Brad

 

[JeromeAz]

Brad,

Have you heard anything back from the University or the guy from Utah about the etchings?

Clay

 

[Limitool]

Absolutely NOTHING Clay..... And I'm telling you it is so "weird" the openings behind these mounds. Maybe nothing but the opening were formed by water and then maybe further enhanced by man and the squared off mounds would not be in their present shape out front if they were present when tunnels were formed....?? I guess... so says I. There's much more..... Gotta figure it out or get my head wrapped around it.... Brad

 

[JeromeAz]

Absolutely NOTHING Clay..... And I'm telling you it is so "weird" the openings behind these mounds. Maybe nothing but the opening were formed by water and then maybe further enhanced by man and the squared off mounds would not be in their present shape out front if they were present when tunnels were formed....?? I guess... so says I. There's much more..... Gotta figure it out or get my head wrapped around it.... Brad

Makes me think someone put something in there then built the mound so no one would see the hole? Who knows? How big is the hole? Big enough for your fist? Head?

Clay

 

[XLTer]

Limitool , I understand the waiting for the university on the etchings , but have you thought of contacting someone that deals in cave formation ? They may be able to explain the mounds and/or tunnels your finding . Maybe something to do with the soil & erosion process in your area ?