Metal Detectiing TN. cave / Anybody done this?

[huntsman53]

Frank,

I'm sure you know a lot more about caves then I do. All I know is they're made of limestone. I would think it wouldn't be that unstable or dangerous. Its been around for hundreds of years if not longer. The limestone caves here, owned by the state are tourist traps. They have tours everyday. I would think if they were dangerous they wouldn't be allowing people to go through them. Your thoughts please.

Clay

Clay,

While a large majority of caves are made of Limestone, some are not and some are made up of many types of rocks and rock layers. Yes, some Limestone caves are safe while others are not. The ones that are Tourist traps are inspected regularly by Cave Experts and Engineers to insure that they are stable and safe. Some of these are closed periodically or have sections of the cave closed to either shore-up or remove portions of ceilings, walls, stalactites and/or even stalagmites that develop cracks and/or showing stress. The Limestone caves which have little if any constant dripping of water from the ceilings or water beads on the celings are probably the most stable. However, caves like the one that Brad found which have water flowing overhead, have constant dripping of water from much of the the ceilings and waters beads on much of the celings are not safe! Yes, some of these caves have been around for thousands of years or longer but that doesn't make them safe. Eventually this type of Limestone cave will suffer a cave-in or a major change to it's interior, either due to floods or from the water seeping through the ceilings due to the water flowing over the ceilings. Brad saw such a change to the cave when he, his grandson and his friend crawled back to the crack and tunnel and he saw how the tunnel is now compared to what it was 16 years ago when he last crawled back that far into the cave. He stated to me, that when they saw the change to the tunnel, they immediately turned around and crawled back out of the cave as fast as they could. Many a spelunker and amatuer explorers have died in caves, one of which was Floyd Collins!


Frank

 

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[JeromeAz]

Clay,

While a large majority of caves are made of Limestone, some are not and some are made up of many types of rocks and rock layers. Yes, some Limestone caves are safe while others are not. The ones that are Tourist traps are inspected regularly by Cave Experts and Engineers to insure that they are stable and safe. Some of these are closed periodically or have sections of the cave closed to either shore-up or remove portions of ceilings, walls, stalactites and/or even stalagmites that develop cracks and/or showing stress. The Limestone caves which have little if any constant dripping of water from the ceilings or water beads on the celings are probably the most stable. However, caves like the one that Brad found which have water flowing overhead, have constant dripping of water from much of the the ceilings and waters beads on much of the celings are not safe! Yes, some of these caves have been around for thousands of years or longer but that doesn't make them safe. Eventually this type of Limestone cave will suffer a cave-in or a major change to it's interior, either due to floods or from the water seeping through the ceilings due to the water flowing over the ceilings. Brad saw such a change to the cave when he, his grandson and his friend crawled back to the crack and tunnel and he saw how the tunnel is now compared to what it was 16 years ago when he last crawled back that far into the cave. He stated to me, that when they saw the change to the tunnel, they immediately turned around and crawled back out of the cave as fast as they could. Many a spelunker and amatuer explorers have died in caves, one of which was Floyd Collins!

Frank

Gotcha! I know mines are unstable and dangerous which doesn't explain why I go in them. Lol! I've heard caves are a lot safer than mines but I'm guess from what your saying some caves can be as bad as a mine. Thanks for the info Frank!

Clay

 

[Limitool]

Frank.... just a thought. I wonder if after I excavate the ground in front of the mound (say 4 ft. wide and 6-7 ft. back) and I do or do not find a damn thing... I wonder if I could slowly get in behind the mound the hard way by just removing the soil slowly from the outside in on both ends. Sure a lot of work. We'll never get a remote toy back their either behind it without doing this also. I'm not any smarter today... I'm kind of with Eric and have been... DO NOT DESTROY! I guess I need to stop thinking about it and just get the MD back there again when I can. One step at a time.... Brad

 

[BVI Hunter]

My pal has a local limestone cave near his house - 60ft high and 40ft across, been there for 1000's of years, and the tourists loved it...................!!!

oh.... they had to re-market it recently, now calling it a SINKHOLE after the roof collapsed in one night!!

stay safe!!

 

[huntsman53]

Gotcha! I know mines are unstable and dangerous which doesn't explain why I go in them. Lol! I've heard caves are a lot safer than mines but I'm guess from what your saying some caves can be as bad as a mine. Thanks for the info Frank!

Clay

Caves and Mines are two completely different environments, although Mines can punch through, intersect or even parallel Caves! Mines are man-made from digging, drilling and blasting that can upset the structure and sub-structure of the rock layers over the top, on the sides and under the floor of them. By taking away too much support (what is holding the ceiling and sides or walls up) and not replacing it with suitable replacements, upsetting rock layers, erosion when water is hit, settling as well as unexpected shifting due to faulting and earthquakes, is what makes Mines so dangerous. Caves are formed naturally by erosion, mineral seepage (such as Lime Calcification as well as others) and faulting which can cause shifting of the rock layers but because these happen over thousands, hundreds of thousands or even millions of years, the rock layers and other material are more able to settle and stabilize, making them generally safer than Mines. A Cave that is comprised of rock layers such as granite or other extremely dense material with little if any Limestone, will definitely be more stable than one comprised of mainly Limestone and especially one with water flowing overhead with constant seepage and drippage.

When I was about 10 years old, some friends and myself entered a Limestone Cave in Knox County in Tennessee which was exposed due to a road building project. Inside, we found that the Cave was mainly round and very small with a large hole in the center that was about 30 feet deep or more. When we exited the Cave, the ceiling and walls at the entrance began collapsing upon us and actually pinned a friend who was the last one out of the Cave. We had to quickly dig him out before the rest of the opening collapsed. On another occasion, I went into a Cave near Kingsport, Tennessee with a friend (Jeff) and his son, exploring for Indian artifacts. This Cave had some side tunnels but the main tunnel had an entrance on one side of a hill and another entrance or exit on the other side of the hill with a road crossing the top of the hill above the Cave. Although he said that it was stable even though there were large rocks overhanging overhead, we found out differently about 150 yards into the Cave. At about this point, we found what was once one of those large overhanging rocks, actually laying on and covering the entire floor of the Cave. We quickly did an about face and exited the Cave as quickly as possible. Jeff called me about a week later and told me that the Cave we had entered the previous week, had actually collapsed and had collapsed much of the hill as well as destroyed the road going over top of it. Although I entered the Brad's Cave with him and his daughter Chelsea, I had my reservations about doing so and Brad and Chelsea knew and understood this. Once I got 30 to 40 yards inside the Cave with them, my reservations about exploring the Cave went to Red Alert Level when I realized that the Cave was mostly comprised of Limestone with seepage and drippings from above due to the underground stream flowing somewhere over the ceilings. Now, do you think I like going into Caves?


Frank

 

[huntsman53]

Frank.... just a thought. I wonder if after I excavate the ground in front of the mound (say 4 ft. wide and 6-7 ft. back) and I do or do not find a damn thing... I wonder if I could slowly get in behind the mound the hard way by just removing the soil slowly from the outside in on both ends. Sure a lot of work. We'll never get a remote toy back their either behind it without doing this also. I'm not any smarter today... I'm kind of with Eric and have been... DO NOT DESTROY! I guess I need to stop thinking about it and just get the MD back there again when I can. One step at a time.... Brad

Brad... I am going to reserve answering that question until I see the video! However, I am going to say that based just on the pics, that with some material and mud walls/mounds removed from the right or left side or both of the etched mound, I believe that there may be enough room to get a remote toy car or truck into the hole and just push it back blindly if need be, filming as it goes until it hits a major obstruction as which point we will pull it back out. In any case, we definitely need to get a metal detector back there and MD around the hole etched mound as well as the entire mud/dirt floor around and near it.


Frank

 

[Limitool]

I'm sorry folks no word back yet on video from Tuesdays cave trip. Like I said his "new phone" and its "super protective case" failed so I can't call and check. But I'm sure he'll be out here when he's done taking around 2.5 hrs. of video and editing it down. That alone will probably take awhile also. This guy is good at what he does with the video... he's an avid paintballer, base jumper and daredevil and uses this high resolution helmet cam a lot. But.... never within an environment like this cave. I'll say it again.... I just hope it didn't get "fogged" over and/or get water droplets obstructing its view while filming. Especially after the effort put forth Tuesday.... I want to see this video myself... NOW!!!!!

 

[JeromeAz]

Frank,

I have no cave experience as I have only been in one and that one was set up for tourists. Now I have lots of mine experience but that definitely doesn't make me an expert. That just makes me a curious stupid individual. Lol! I went in one mine that reeked of cyanide but I just had to check it out. I was sick for 3 days after that. Some mines I won't go in. I have some limits. One of them is now cyanide. A lot of rock laying on the ground from the ceiling, Not Good! Big timbers slowly being crushed and seeing them broken means Keep Out!

Clay

 

[huntsman53]

Frank,

I have no cave experience as I have only been in one and that one was set up for tourists. Now I have lots of mine experience but that definitely doesn't make me an expert. That just makes me a curious stupid individual. Lol! I went in one mine that reeked of cyanide but I just had to check it out. I was sick for 3 days after that. Some mines I won't go in. I have some limits. One of them is now cyanide. A lot of rock laying on the ground from the ceiling, Not Good! Big timbers slowly being crushed and seeing them broken means Keep Out!

Clay

Clay,

My ex-Father-in-Law, Erich Bingiesser was and is an Inventor in Germany! He invented a Tunnel Boring Machine probably more than 30 years ago that used Lazers and Diamond coated Cutters to bore a hole (tunnel) right through a mountain. Along with this, he invented a way to transport the debris out behind the Tunnel Borer which was dumped into trucks and hauled away as well as a process of strutting the tunnel and pouring a concrete encloser around the tunnel sort of like a large concrete drainage pipe but the encloser was around 4 foot thick and lined with tons of steel. Unlike here in the U.S. where you file and pay for a Patent one time and just update it as necessary to keep it current, in Europe you have to pay every year to keep the Patents, otherwise they can be stolen and used. Due to failing health and not getting a lot of return on his' Patents, he was unable to pay the approximately $25,000 (over 100,000 in Euros) due each year. He eventually defaulted on the payment for the Patent on the Tunnel Borer and it was stolen by a large equipment manufacturer in Europe. I am pretty sure that the machine that bored the tunnel under the English Channel to connect France with England was his' very own invention. Although the cost of equipment, materials and power for the Tunnel Borer was and is astronomical, can you still just imagine how much Gold, Silver, Platinum, Rhodium, Palladium, Diamonds and other rare Gems and materials could be mined with it??!!


Frank

 

[Vonclemen29]

Yea man, couldn't imagine. Two years ago I was walking the creek on our property and was looking for shark teeth when I stumbled across a big red sand ball, about the size of a soccer ball. I picked it up, and it was quite heavy. Started chipping away, an lord an behold a wooly mammoth tooth!! Big one. Got so excited I ran up the bank called my dad. I couldn't believe it! Only reason I knew what it was just two weeks before I watched the discovery channel about mammoths. Well about a month later I walked the creek again in the same place in waste deep water just to look at the banks for bones an tripped on something under water and guess what! Another tooth!! Well we let the water get down to about little over ankle deep came back to look at the banks again, bones stickin outta the bank. Went to walk over to get a closer look, stepped on something reached down pulled up what I thought was a piece of almost petrified wood real pretty grains, started pulling more of what I thought was a stump stickin out of the yazoo clay then I got to thinking.... Tusk... Ivory!! So next day my dad one of our workers, an I dammed up the creek an dug. Took three hours but we got it out. 6 foot of a wooly mammoth tusk, the tip of it!!! Looked as if it just fell off its face. You could see the dings an scratches and wear on it where it had been scrapping snow for forage!!! Awesome part of my life, we got it an some bones out the bank glued them together after they dried, I've since takin some ivory and made my wife some sterling silver jewelry broach an rings out of the ivory. I make jewelry when I'm not farming during winter. I'm only 29 my grandad got me started doing the jewelry thing few years ago. So how many women can say they have mississippi wooly mammoth ivory jewelry to wear! But yes I made a journal took pics of the dig an wrote times an place down. Love it. Ill keep y'all in mind, was very amateur at the time but now know alot about preserving and documenting these types of things. Good luck man. It'll be something you'll never forget an can pass it don the line.

 

[JeromeAz]

Clay,

My ex-Father-in-Law, Erich Bingiesser was and is an Inventor in Germany! He invented a Tunnel Boring Machine probably more than 30 years ago that used Lazers and Diamond coated Cutters to bore a hole (tunnel) right through a mountain. Along with this, he invented a way to transport the debris out behind the Tunnel Borer which was dumped into trucks and hauled away as well as a process of strutting the tunnel and pouring a concrete encloser around the tunnel sort of like a large concrete drainage pipe but the encloser was around 4 foot thick and lined with tons of steel. Unlike here in the U.S. where you file and pay for a Patent one time and just update it as necessary to keep it current, in Europe you have to pay every year to keep the Patents, otherwise they can be stolen and used. Due to failing health and not getting a lot of return on his' Patents, he was unable to pay the approximately $25,000 (over 100,000 in Euros) due each year. He eventually defaulted on the payment for the Patent on the Tunnel Borer and it was stolen by a large equipment manufacturer in Europe. I am pretty sure that the machine that bored the tunnel under the English Channel to connect France with England was his' very own invention. Although the cost of equipment, materials and power for the Tunnel Borer was and is astronomical, can you still just imagine how much Gold, Silver, Platinum, Rhodium, Palladium, Diamonds and other rare Gems and materials could be mined with it??!!

Frank

Frank,

That's Awesome! I know that machine! I've seen that machine! Or at least someone's version of your ex father-in-laws machine. It was 84 or 85 in Phoenix. A friend of mine was a electrician on the job. He did the lighting in the tunnel. He took my girlfriend and I to the site. They started in the Salt River bed that flows through Phx. Not sure how far below the city it is. We rode the "train" to the boring machine. That was awesome to see! The thing digs the tunnel, loads the dirt and rock into the cars and concretes the walls as it goes. They have a train and cars like you would see in a mine. Fill em up and then haul them outside, dump them, then back for more. It was cool! Wish I had my camera but at the time I didn't know what I was going to. I had never seen one or ever heard of one before then. The guy was a genius! Now how many people can say they stood under downtown Phx? Or any city? Well unless it has a subway, then I guess I can say I stood under London too! Lol! After we left there we drove downtown he showed us where they injected a kind of slurry, like cement I guess to fill in any pockets that were created from digging the tunnel. He said in some spots they put in so much that it started to buckle the street. It was definitely a sight to see! I wonder why they don't use that for mining? Instead of all the workers they use, they could have only 3 or 4 to operate the machine. Saving all that money to put towards the machine. I'm guessing it can only go straight which veins don't always. Anyways that's my experience with your ex father-in-laws machine. Awesome invention!

Clay

 

[huntsman53]

Frank,

That's Awesome! I know that machine! I've seen that machine! Or at least someone's version of your ex father-in-laws machine. It was 84 or 85 in Phoenix. A friend of mine was a electrician on the job. He did the lighting in the tunnel. He took my girlfriend and I to the site. They started in the Salt River bed that flows through Phx. Not sure how far below the city it is. We rode the "train" to the boring machine. That was awesome to see! The thing digs the tunnel, loads the dirt and rock into the cars and concretes the walls as it goes. They have a train and cars like you would see in a mine. Fill em up and then haul them outside, dump them, then back for more. It was cool! Wish I had my camera but at the time I didn't know what I was going to. I had never seen one or ever heard of one before then. The guy was a genius! Now how many people can say they stood under downtown Phx? Or any city? Well unless it has a subway, then I guess I can say I stood under London too! Lol! After we left there we drove downtown he showed us where they injected a kind of slurry, like cement I guess to fill in any pockets that were created from digging the tunnel. He said in some spots they put in so much that it started to buckle the street. It was definitely a sight to see! I wonder why they don't use that for mining? Instead of all the workers they use, they could have only 3 or 4 to operate the machine. Saving all that money to put towards the machine. I'm guessing it can only go straight which veins don't always. Anyways that's my experience with your ex father-in-laws machine. Awesome invention!

Clay

From what you stated in your adventure, my ex-Father-in-Law's Tunnel Borer Patent was stolen a lot earlier than when he lost his Patent in Europe! Erich and my ex-Mother-in-Law visited us in 1989, when I lived and worked in West Virginia. He was having trouble then keeping up the payments on the Patents and was trying to get the machine Patented here. We spent a whole day in Senator Byrd's Office in Charleston, WV trying to get his help in getting the machine Patented and Marketed here. I even still have copies of the entire design of the Tunnel Borer somewhere here in my' home! Months later Senator Byrd's Office notified him and me that no Company wanted to touch it due to the R&D costs which was estimated in the hundreds of millions of dollars. It seems that the real reason was, that someone had already built one here or in another country. I no longer have contact with him and my ex-Mother-In-Law but I am sure he would want to know this, that is, if he can comprehend it. He fell 4 stories from a scaffold in 1973 and although he survived, the injuries have taken their toll on his' body and mind. It has been long known that a lot of shady deals and going on's happen in the World Patent office and the World Court in Europe, so it is not surprising that Erich's Patent would be literally sold out from under him!

Oh well, enough on this stuff which is taking away from Brad's Thread. Sorry Brad, I got off on a tagent due to the mining capabilities of the machine!


Frank

 

[Chuxter]

Very interesting. Can't wait to hear more! Please be careful.

 

[JeromeAz]

From what you stated in your adventure, my ex-Father-in-Law's Tunnel Borer Patent was stolen a lot earlier than when he lost his Patent in Europe! Erich and my ex-Mother-in-Law visited us in 1989, when I lived and worked in West Virginia. He was having trouble then keeping up the payments on the Patents and was trying to get the machine Patented here. We spent a whole day in Senator Byrd's Office in Charleston, WV trying to get his help in getting the machine Patented and Marketed here. I even still have copies of the entire design of the Tunnel Borer somewhere here in my' home! Months later Senator Byrd's Office notified him and me that no Company wanted to touch it due to the R&D costs which was estimated in the hundreds of millions of dollars. It seems that the real reason was, that someone had already built one here or in another country. I no longer have contact with him and my ex-Mother-In-Law but I am sure he would want to know this, that is, if he can comprehend it. He fell 4 stories from a scaffold in 1973 and although he survived, the injuries have taken their toll on his' body and mind. It has been long known that a lot of shady deals and going on's happen in the World Patent office and the World Court in Europe, so it is not surprising that Erich's Patent would be literally sold out from under him!

Oh well, enough on this stuff which is taking away from Brad's Thread. Sorry Brad, I got off on a tagent due to the mining capabilities of the machine!

Frank

Frank,

Yeah that's greedy people for you! Happens every day. Sorry to hear that!

OK Brad its all yours!

Clay

 

[DCMatt]

Love this thread! Although your glyphs are not as clear, your situation is remarkably similar to the discovery of the Tennessee Mud Glyph Cave.


DCMatt

 

[Limitool]

Ok Clay... thank you. And we have good news folks abut the video. Just got a call from my video guy and he said it turned out AWESOME!!!! He said it's just like being there and the mound etchings show up even better with his high resolution helmet camera than in person. He said there appears to have been much more there at one time on the mound. Now its just a matter of how long "did I want it"? He said it was close to 2.5 hrs. long but this includes the entire trip going in and coming back out and stopping now and then to look at things. So when he gets off work tonight he said he'd start to edit. We're going to show from the very beginning back to the 1st. etched mound in full so everyone has an idea of getting into this environment. I asked if the audio part worked good and he stated "loud and clear". I said we'll have to do a little audio bleeping and he said no "it's worth it just listening to you *****". Now I'm all geeked up again and want to go back and start MD'ing or excavating. Later.... Brad

 

[Erik in NJ]

Wow Matt! Great connection! The article reads almost identically to the cave Brad has discovered in so many ways!! This why I believe it's ***SO*** important to keep those etched mud mounds fully intact as the etchings are part of the real treasure. Is there a way for him to get in touch with the anthropologists that are analyzing the etchings in the cave in the article? Brad'll need to get ash samples from the cave ceiling dated as well.

Love this thread! Although your glyphs are not as clear, your situation is remarkably similar to the discovery of the Tennessee Mud Glyph Cave.


DCMatt

 

[Limitool]

Wow Matt! Great connection! The article reads almost identically to the cave Brad has discovered in so many ways!! This why I believe it's ***SO*** important to keep those etched mud mounds fully intact as the etchings are part of the real treasure. Is there a way for him to get in touch with the anthropologists that are analyzing the etchings in the cave in the article? Brad'll need to get ash samples from the cave ceiling dated as well.

Eric... the man that was in charge of what DCMatt is referencing is the Professor I contacted at the University of TN. Anthropology among others. Dr. Charles H. Falkner is now retired and Dr. Jan Simek worked with him. Post # 233 references this cave art from the Maryville area... This is what I was trying to make a connection to but nobody ever got back with me except the 1st time when he said he couldn't review pics for about a week. When re-contacted I never heard anything back again. Below is the only contact I've had.... So I have tried twice.

Hi Brad,

I'm out of town for a bit, and while my iPad works, I can't download photos until I get home next week. I'll look at the pictures then.

Thanks for contacting me.

Jan F. Simek

President Emeritus

Distinguished Professor of Science

Department of Anthropology

252 South Stadium Hall

University of Tennessee

Knoxville, TN 37996-0720

(865) 974-4408

 

[Erik in NJ]

And this is the University that has not gotten back to you?? Something sounds very strange there as the mud art seems to be a relatively unique and very significant find! It would seem that your discovery is just as significant, not to mention in a very similar geographic area. Plus you have the etched mounds. What did they have to say, anything? I'm not that familiar with the contact that you've had with this department. I can imagine how frustrating it's been for you if they have not been responsive.

Congrats on the video footage that you have. I have one request...can you also post a link to the full unedited video. I'll sit down with a few cold ones tonight and watch the whole thing. Looking forward to it.

 

[Limitool]

And this is the University that has not gotten back to you?? Something sounds very strange there as the mud art seems to be a relatively unique and very significant find! It would seem that your discovery is just as significant, not to mention in a very similar geographic area. Plus you have the etched mounds. What did they have to say, anything? I'm not that familiar with the contact that you've had with this department. I can imagine how frustrating it's been for you if they have not been responsive.

Congrats on the video footage that you have. I have one request...can you also post a link to the full unedited video. I'll sit down with a few cold ones tonight and watch the whole thing. Looking forward to it.

Yea Eric.... same folks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! See how thin this "line" is getting? MD'ing area will help me out a lot first. Jordon and I both discussed putting the whole video out and we probably will. We both didn't know photobucket and YouTube limits. You can get your "cold ones" ready but it won't be tonight but very soon. I too am looking forward to seeing the video myself. And Jordon was very excited when he called me today over how it turned out... he said better than he dreamed. I want the video YESTERDAY.... not tomorrow myself.