Lue Map

[Crow]

Hello Randy it has been very interesting thread.

Crow

 

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[markmar]

Crow

I believe the words " LUE " are initials from Spanish words . Something like the " PLRN " or " IPLR " in the Tumacacori ( Molina ) map . My research leads me to make this conclusion .

 

[Randy Bradford]

Crow

I believe the words " LUE " are initials from Spanish words . Something like the " PLRN " or " IPLR " in the Tumacacori ( Molina ) map . My research leads me to make this conclusion .

The word LUE is as much a mystery as the map. They do not appear on the map themselves though Von Mueller stated when he published the map, it was in it's entirety....though in other references he states the word LUE comes from the first three letters of three words that appeared on the map. If you read enough of the stuff written by Von Mueller/Gladson/Miller, quickly becomes evident that many contraditctions exist in his presentation of the map, it's meaning, and what it ultimately leads to.

Narius, would love to hear more about what else yoru rasearch has turned up if you're willing to share...

 

[markmar]

Randy

When I saw for first time the LUE map , with the lines and triangles , I saw how was close ( not the same ) with the Molina map . After a detailed research , I found how the LUE map is in the same region with the Molina map . Want you something more exciting ? I found how the place of the cave /mine entrance in the LUE map ( the little circle in the little triangle which I have described in my theory - see previous posts ) shows the Santa Isabel mine of Molina map .
I could be right but also I could be wrong . Let your intuition to decides .

 

[banana skin slippers]

I to find this legend interesting , all this talk of various theories , and ill probably get slapped in face with a wet fish for saying that i think there is more to this one than meets the eye.
Putting the various stories aside for a min , what does the picture say? is there something we are all missing? would that raise more intrigue ?leading to more questioning of hmmm. Given there is no real answer to source , or basis that muller himself , as has been mentioned admitted it was a test on how folks believed irrelevant of proof in treasure.
It seems there is more emphasis on the creditablity of muller than what the alledged end document alludes to? in this line of thought are we missing the main focal point , a sorta distraction? Should the focus not be on what he knew as a person , his skill sets , things he was more apt at or were common practise to , to evaluate if it were his workings ?
Is it a test or lil game played by muller to prove a theory or is there more to the lue than meets the eye?
I`ll admit i have not studied this topic enough , therefore i am amongst the armchair conspiracy theorists here but there are niggles which remain unanswered in my view to clearly confirm it is simply a fake.
I am leaning to the recluse who decide to have a lil fun , and that there is something to be found , it sort of reminds me of the dead sea scrolls. Just gotta figure out how his mind worked. devious/ cunning? sly? bit of humour mixed in with it?
intriguing nontheless.
banana`s
p.s. blame 12yr old Glenlivet single malt for my enlightnment

 

[Crow]

Ah banana Bob Glenlivet single malt. Naughty Bob.

While all treasure legends are interesting to me. Trouble with the Lue there is too many unanswered questions leading too many speculative theories. For me I have not drank Don Jose waters of eternal youth to spend a lifetime on this one never really knowing the rules of the game. For some it is irresistible, for me there are much better pickings elsewhere.

So I wish those who seek it the very best of luck.

Crow

 

[Barton]

Hello Folk's my view on the LUE Map,

It has been said: "Fact: The LUE Map defies any resemblance to anything that would be construed as a map and personally I've never understood how anyone ever took it to be such unless they had more information than has ever been supplied. No overt directional indicators, overt reference to place markers, beginning points, end points, landmarks, distance or anything else one might expect to find on a map"

I will take an opposing view having once been a seaman: It is very much like a marine chart --there are even latitude and longitude marks on the map.

There are also a series of positions shown on the map running along 105 degrees, 12 minutes and 30 seconds.

Of course if a latitude and longitude positions mean nothing to you neither will a series of positions shown on the Lue map.

KVM ( Karl Von Mueller ) felt it was probably Spanish the gold he dug up had Spanish markings on it. Yet he felt there
was also a problem with that theory as there was simply too much gold / silver to have been mined by them. I have a hunch he felt
the Spanish were looting earlier mined gold and silver--by people here before the Spanish.

I guess my theory and ten bucks will buy lunch. Barton

 

[Randy Bradford]

Barton, long time no talk. I've been waiting to email you something. COmpleted my first LUE article and am waiting for a decision on the publishing before I share it. SHould hear something soon though. I'm actually going to be doing a presentaiton on the LUE in Orem, UT in May. Not sure what sort of crowd we'll get in Northern Utah, but I'm hopeful. I actually got two new peices of LUE references in the mail yesterday with a number left to track down. Finding information on the LUE is every bit as much work as finding the lUE itself I do beleive.

I beleive the opening quote you made there was my own, I used the word "overt" for a reason. I've always assumed people with the right skill set or experiences would see something I didn't. That's also why my own interst in the LUE has always been historical, mostly because I don't thnk I have the skills to crack the map much less the capabilities to mount a recovery.

As for lunch, I'll pay if you talk...be the best investment I ever made I think.

Randy

 

[sdcfia]

Hello Folk's my view on the LUE Map,

It has been said: "Fact: The LUE Map defies any resemblance to anything that would be construed as a map and personally I've never understood how anyone ever took it to be such unless they had more information than has ever been supplied. No overt directional indicators, overt reference to place markers, beginning points, end points, landmarks, distance or anything else one might expect to find on a map"

I will take an opposing view having once been a seaman: It is very much like a marine chart --there are even latitude and longitude marks on the map.

There are also a series of positions shown on the map running along 105 degrees, 12 minutes and 30 seconds.

Of course if a latitude and longitude positions mean nothing to you neither will a series of positions shown on the Lue map.

KVM ( Karl Von Mueller ) felt it was probably Spanish the gold he dug up had Spanish markings on it. Yet he felt there
was also a problem with that theory as there was simply too much gold / silver to have been mined by them. I have a hunch he felt
the Spanish were looting earlier mined gold and silver--by people here before the Spanish.

I guess my theory and ten bucks will buy lunch. Barton

That's an interesting thought. If there are indeed accurate longitudinal references on the "map", then it couldn't have been created before ca 1800 at the earliest, and if so, likely by a celestial navigator with an accurate chronometer (mariner?). If the "map" represents the New Mexico/Colorado region, then it may be more likely that it was created after the telegraph was established there - during or after the Civil War. In any case, this theory pretty much rules out the "Spanish" as creators of the "map" - but not necessarily as the exploiters of the "treasure", whatever it is.

 

[Crow]

The trouble with Lue is is one of those unsolvable puzzles because there is very few facts to go on. So interpretation will always create 1001 plus unprovable answers.

Crow

 

[sdcfia]

The trouble with Lue is is one of those unsolvable puzzles because there is very few facts to go on. So interpretation will always create 1001 plus unprovable answers.

Crow

That's right. I've heard some real doozies re the LUE. One guy who posts on this forum claims he drew the map when he was six years old. Another poster claims his dad found the site years ago. A person I corresponded with years ago, who was close to KVM, claims KVM pushed the story as a practical joke. Others claim it's Spanish gold. Or gold of the Annunaki. Or whatever. I haven't heard any sort of comprehensive explanation that a guy could use as much of a starting point to try investigating it. I'm sure many true believers would challenge me on that point.

In my view, the whole thing is some sort of coded message relating to something important and/or valuable in the SE Colorado/Spanish Peaks region - possibly in the nearby San Luis Valley. That would make KVM complicit - either intentionally or innocently - in providing disinformation to the public. This fits with a larger scale idea of mine that involves other "treasure writers" releasing disinformation concerning "lost mines and buried treasure", particularly centering on the "famous legends", but also including many less well-known stories.

 

[Randy Bradford]

That's right. I've heard some real doozies re the LUE. One guy who posts on this forum claims he drew the map when he was six years old. Another poster claims his dad found the site years ago. A person I corresponded with years ago, who was close to KVM, claims KVM pushed the story as a practical joke. Others claim it's Spanish gold. Or gold of the Annunaki. Or whatever. I haven't heard any sort of comprehensive explanation that a guy could use as much of a starting point to try investigating it. I'm sure many true believers would challenge me on that point.

In my view, the whole thing is some sort of coded message relating to something important and/or valuable in the SE Colorado/Spanish Peaks region - possibly in the nearby San Luis Valley. That would make KVM complicit - either intentionally or innocently - in providing disinformation to the public. This fits with a larger scale idea of mine that involves other "treasure writers" releasing disinformation concerning "lost mines and buried treasure", particularly centering on the "famous legends", but also including many less well-known stories.

It's hard to write any sort of comprehensive explanation as so little is known of the map/treasure, and what is known is scattered over dozens of resources.

One thing to remember about the LUE is really, at this point, it all goes back to Karl Von Mueller. Every significant clue or bit of historical data we have comes from him. The LUE lives or dies on the basis of your opinion of him. I for one have never heard a bad thing about the man from anyone that knew him personally. People that attempt to discredit him are never (as best I can tell) individuals who met him, much less knew him. The reality is he's not here to defend himself so we may never know.

I didn't know Karl, but the basis for my own investigations start with my belief that he sincerely believed what he said about the map. If I can't accept that point there's no point in investigating or studying further. In my work office, the LUE map sits prominently in front of my desk to remind me of the mysteries of this world and the limitless opportunities for knowledge and discovery. Something else to consider, Karl first published the LUE in 1966 in his THM #7. He was still talking about the LUE in his "Ask Examino" column in the early 1980s. That's nearly 20 years to perpetuate a myth if you really feel he made it up. Also keep in mind many of his close associates would have had to been in on it too because Montana Larry and Karl are said to have made a recovery of gold using the map.

*One guy who posts on this forum claims he drew the map when he was six years old. (I don't think he posts here much anymore)
*Another poster claims his dad found the site years ago. (Quite possible, by all accounts the LUE isn't a single cache location)
*A person I corresponded with years ago, who was close to KVM, claims KVM pushed the story as a practical joke. (I hear that but as I said, it's either from unnamed sources or people that didn't know Karl)
*Others claim it's Spanish gold. (Karl was of this opinion, he said so but I don't think he ever 100% confirmed that belief)
*Or gold of the Annunaki. (That's a new one on me, would love to hear more).

Something to keep in mind, and this is very evident when you read Karl's work in the National Prospector's Gazette or his THM6/7...Karl rarely discussed unfound locations. He didn't have faith in many and felt the stories were false. He did publish literally thousands of alleged cache recoveries. I think he did this to demonstrate treasure could still be found and as a way of helping people think outside the box when it came to treasure hunting and treasure hunting research.

I think this is a wonderful thread and I sincerely hope we can get some former posters back in here and posting. My goal is to go back through some of the older portions and answer questions if people are interested, I think I can shed more light but don't want to bury the thread in an avalanche of responses to old posts, particularly if people aren't interested. One of the best assets to this thread would be Old Bookaroo, unfortunately he no longer posts on Treasurenet. I for one believe there is still a lot of life left in the LUE story, and probably more than a little gold left to dig up as well.

I firmly believe the key to understanding the LUE is understanding both Karl Von Mueller's words about it and the historical context in which he revealed that information. There are still more than a few people that knew Karl and dealt with him directly. Unfortunately, that number grows smaller all the time.

Randy

 

[sdcfia]

It's hard to write any sort of comprehensive explanation as so little is known of the map/treasure, and what is known is scattered over dozens of resources.

One thing to remember about the LUE is really, at this point, it all goes back to Karl Von Mueller. Every significant clue or bit of historical data we have comes from him. <cut>

Well, I'm ambivalent about KVM - I was never one to follow him or other treasure story personalities - although his Treasure of the Valley of Secrets (and by extension, Walter Hurt's The Scarlet Shadow) seems to be relavent to the LUE discussion, IMO. I mentioned the disinformation claim only as an adjunct to the discussion, since it was a strongly-held belief of someone obviously well-informed who claimed to know KVM and his family quite well. The statement came from a "real player" in the TH field during a discussion I had with him back about 1990 on another subject. He was a KGC guy (not Brewer or any of his people). It's not my intent to trash KVM, but all possibilities must remain on the table with treasure legends, because almost all of them are backed exclusively by hearsay and speculation. Reports of recoveries make good reading, but for the most part do not pass my human nature test.

By the way, didn't KVM get the map from some guy who privately published it earlier? Possibly as far back as the 1930s or 40s in Albuquerque? I can't remember for sure - I'm sure other LUE fans will know.

[Addition: I was just looking through my stuff and found a note to myself to check out a connection between the LUE and the Aztec treasure rumors in the Capitan Mountains in New Mexico - down by Lincoln, Ft Stanton, etc. More fuel for the fire.]

 

[Randy Bradford]

Well, I'm ambivalent about KVM - I was never one to follow him or other treasure story personalities - although his Treasure of the Valley of Secrets (and by extension, Walter Hurt's The Scarlet Shadow) seems to be relavent to the LUE discussion, IMO. I mentioned the disinformation claim only as an adjunct to the discussion, since it was a strongly-held belief of someone obviously well-informed who claimed to know KVM and his family quite well. The statement came from a "real player" in the TH field during a discussion I had with him back about 1990 on another subject. He was a KGC guy (not Brewer or any of his people). It's not my intent to trash KVM, but all possibilities must remain on the table with treasure legends, because almost all of them are backed exclusively by hearsay and speculation. Reports of recoveries make good reading, but for the most part do not pass my human nature test.

By the way, didn't KVM get the map from some guy who privately published it earlier? Possibly as far back as the 1930s or 40s in Albuquerque? I can't remember for sure - I'm sure other LUE fans will know.

[Addition: I was just looking through my stuff and found a note to myself to check out a connection between the LUE and the Aztec treasure rumors in the Capitan Mountains in New Mexico - down by Lincoln, Ft Stanton, etc. More fuel for the fire.]

Keep in mind I'm a young'n where this crowd is concerned, never talked to or write Karl much less knew him. While I recognize the LUE could be a hoax, I strictly operate from the principal that since Karl is the one who wrote about it that he was "the resident expert" and I take him at his word. As I said, if I didn't there wouldn't be much point in following up with the LUE. So keep in mind I freely admit I'm operating from a relatively narrow and concrete perspective here.

TotVoS is minimally related to the LUE and a casual reading will reveal that the book itself was written about an entirely different target, at least on the surface. In fact, the LUE references often feel very forced, particularly since he says in the book that the Cave of Gold which was revealed in TotVoS is a separate cache. TotVoS was written largely in response to feedback KvM received after he conclusively proved to critics taht The Scarlet Shadow was indeed a real book. He received so many requests for reprtints that he cobbled together TotVoS...that much is easily discernible if you read National Prospector's Gazette from that period. The LUE was already a known commodity having been printed in 1966 while the TotVoS really wouldn't catch on until the early 1970s. KvM spells out that he felt the Cave of Gold was either an Aztec (per the Scarlet Shadow) site, or, in his opinion more likely a Native-worked Spanish mine. His references to the LUE in that book suggest that the LUE was in his estimation the burial site of a Spanish padre. KvM was clear he did not think the LUE was Incan or Mayan and in the 1970s the KGC were not even being tracked by most treasure hunters.

Per KvM's own words, he received a copy of the LUE from Hardrock Hammond who had the map on loan from someone in Phoenix. The treasure hunting club they were mutually a part of in California (as I understand it) made copies for themselves and later the map was printed in Treasure Hunter's Manual #7. It's worth noting that pre-sale advertisement for the book specifically mention the map was in the book ,suggesting he was marketing the book to individuals who were already aware of the map. KvM over the years suggested the book could be found in a number of sources, one as old as the 1890s but he stopped short of indicating what sources these were specifically. It's an interesting paradox because KvM wrote on a number of occasions his own frustrations about poorly researched or poorly cited stories. His references to the map while omitting the actual sources has always puzzled me. There has been suggestions that the map is in an unpublished book, several of the CCC state guides from the depression era and a pamphlet by Robert O. Burch that nobody seems to be able to verify the existence of. Von Mueller suggested also that the map was often presented as not necessarily a map by individuals publishing it without recognizing it for what it was.

I'm paraphrasing at this point but can provide some direct quotes as needed. I'm mostly working from memory at this point but I think I'm in a good position to do so as I have exhaustively read, researched and studied the map and available resources on it for some time. There are plenty that can probably provide better insights into the map and what it meant to folks at the time though. I don't know of anyone actively pursuing a recovery of it at this time, though treasure writers of the 1965-1975 era would have you believe the mountains were teaming with searchers. I've always thought the LUE was a niche treasure...something the casual hobbyist wasn't aware of much less seeking. I could be wrong in this assessment.

Another tricky aspect of the LUE is that evidence to support it's legitimacy and recoveries is strictly limited to things KvM was publishing himself. Independent verification is pretty much impossible, though frankly the same could be said of most (intelligent) treasure recoveries. Printed material speaks of literally dozens of recoveries by different individuals and groups, reinforcing the idea that the treasure is both vast and cached in multiple locations. One writer to the NPG detailed a number of recoveries and mentioned specific locales, almost a half dozen of them as memory serves. Von Mueller himself confirmed several of those locaitons in the early 1980s in one of the treasure mags.

For my part, I'd love to know more about what KvM may have said to folks about his Black Lake cache recovery. People seem aware that he mad one, but details about when, where and how are scarce. Having read about KvM and his advice to other cache hunters, that we know he made a recovery at all is surprising...that we know so very little about it is not. Much has been spoken about a silver recovery KvM made as well, eventually unloading that silver as jewelry to readers of the NPG. Many have assumed this was the LUE cache, I do not believe it to be so. KvM said in the late 1970s that every LUE recovery he knew of was gold. Again, I'd love to know more about his silver cache recovery because details I've encountered have been meager, though far more illuminating then what people have passed on about his LUE recovery.

Randy

 

[sdcfia]

Randy, you've likely forgotten more about the LUE than I'll ever know. As I said earlier, I just can't grasp what it's even all about. In years past, I figured it was just another Spanish treasure, then, presto - everyone was saying it was Nazi gold in the Four Corners. Then later, yet another idea. I quickly lost interest and moved on to other things. The idea that a lone treasure writer is the LUE Bible just doesn't sit right with me for some reason - a gut feeling. Anyway, it's not a subject I'll spend any time on other than as a passing fancy, like this thread, although if you write a book about it I may be interested in your conclusions.

Here's another tidbit re TVS that I just dredged out of my brain's stagnant lagoon: some say there is some sort of secret having to do with the manual typewriter KVM used. It left some odd but carefully placed and meaningful strike marks on the pages. Woo woo.

 

[Randy Bradford]

Randy, you've likely forgotten more about the LUE than I'll ever know. As I said earlier, I just can't grasp what it's even all about. In years past, I figured it was just another Spanish treasure, then, presto - everyone was saying it was Nazi gold in the Four Corners. Then later, yet another idea. I quickly lost interest and moved on to other things. The idea that a lone treasure writer is the LUE Bible just doesn't sit right with me for some reason - a gut feeling. Anyway, it's not a subject I'll spend any time on other than as a passing fancy, like this thread, although if you write a book about it I may be interested in your conclusions.

Here's another tidbit re TVS that I just dredged out of my brain's stagnant lagoon: some say there is some sort of secret having to do with the manual typewriter KVM used. It left some odd but carefully placed and meaningful strike marks on the pages. Woo woo.

sdcfia, I think an open discussion of the possibilities is always worthwhile. Nobody learns in an echo chamber so I sincerely appreciate the commentary.

Nazi Gold in the four corners as a source of the LUE is a great example of how treasure stories get easily convuluted...more importantly, they are convuluted with increasing ease, speed and frequency due to the internet. The Nazi Gold theory was birthed on this very message board and owes its entire existence to one individual. More importantly, the Nazi story is itself often confused with and inseperable from a similar story about gold being brought up by Mexican nationals. The two are hopelessly entwined and the LUE has managed to get tangled some as well. The hard part is it's difficult to seperate the two because so little is known about the origins of the LUE map. If you could date the map it would beeasy to shoot the Nazi story full of holes. The fact is the Nazi theory didn't exist in a public format before 1995, convienently several years after KvM's death.

I don't think KvM was ever a "LUE Bible," merely the mn that had the informtion and the means/desire to share it with others. I'm convinced he sat on that story for almost a decade before publicaiton and I think (no proof) he published it to get some fresh ideas on how to approach and overcome the puzzles the map presented. I think KvM was the mouth piece ofr a lot of successful hunters who didn't want to write books and that many of them could likely tell us plenty about the LUE were mortality and their sense of privacy not an obstacle.

I for one am fascinated by the rumors you have stumbled onto, those are every bit as intersting as what I've uncovered in print. More about that typewriter would be appreciated, sounds like a fascinating lead. Perhaps you can PM me if you don't want it out for the world to see...

Randy

 

[sdcfia]

<cut>
I think KvM was the mouth piece of a lot of successful hunters who didn't want to write books and that many of them could likely tell us plenty about the LUE were mortality and their sense of privacy not an obstacle.

I for one am fascinated by the rumors you have stumbled onto, those are every bit as intersting as what I've uncovered in print. More about that typewriter would be appreciated, sounds like a fascinating lead. Perhaps you can PM me if you don't want it out for the world to see...

Randy

I am extremely wary about the claim that "successful treasure hunters" relay anonymous information through third parties such as KVM. To me, it's just a way of inventing gossip that cannot be verified. There may well have been a few such cases (true or not) involving needy egos, but the idea goes against human nature: why would someone work so hard to make a difficult recovery, then release the information to at best an acquaintance, unnecessarily exposing himself to several potential types of jeopardy - legal, personal or otherwise? Secrecy, security and greed is more in line with treasure hunters' personalities. I always ask myself the question, "What would I do"?

I remember that my copy of TVS clearly shows the weird strike marks. I'll search my records and see if I saved any explanation of why they are there. As I recall, it had something to do with either some sort of word code or map overlay.

The reason we have so many unanswered questions about these treasure legends, in my opinion, is that we don't have good information to work with. I think it's safe to assume that many of the legends are either fabricated to begin with, or, if there is truth underlying the story, that we have been totally misled due to the paranoia, greed and need for secrecy of those who knew the truth. My favorite stories are certainly not the famous ones - which are certainly corrupted beyond repair - but the little-known stories that have not been repeated to any great extent.

 

[Crow]

Hello sdcfia

While I find all treasure legends enjoyable, I cannot agree more. The ones I find have most to offer is ones not worked to death. However that said I have been enjoying this thread and its mysteries of Lue. Am I any closer to understanding it ? No. Maybe it is a riddle without an answer?

Crow

 

[sdcfia]

Hello sdcfia

While I find all treasure legends enjoyable, I cannot agree more. The ones I find have most to offer is ones not worked to death. However that said I have been enjoying this thread and its mysteries of Lue. Am I any closer to understanding it ? No. Maybe it is a riddle without an answer?

Crow

Yes, this is quite a challenge for Randy. It's an intriguing story, but there doesn't seem to be much of a direction to follow. As you get older, you tend to focus on things that promise a return for the energy spent on them. The LUE isn't one of those for me. That said, I'll keep tabs on the subject out of curiosity.

 

[Randy Bradford]

That seems a little personal there sdcfia. We have a difference of opinion and I not only invite but encourage your feedback. Frankly, I'm not as blind as you seem to imply...I fully recognize what your saying and have thought many of the same things myself. I still pursue what I do based on the evidence available. Frankly, I don't think the LUE is "worked to death," though I freely admit it still poses some significant challenges even if no recovery is made. As I see it, and I think we agree on this point, most every shred of evidence either comes straight from Von Mueller, or was published on behalf of others by Von Mueller. That poses some concerns and makes all available material something to be approached with some level of skepticism. Ultimately though, the people trying to prove the LUE a fraud have nothing but speculation and their evidence holds up to scrutiny only as well as Von Mueller's.

My only crime is not being a complete skeptic and approaching the data with the idea in mind that it may be true, and not the preconceived notion that it is not and cannot. Supporters and opponents of this topic both rely on faith ultimately. The only difference is I try to embrace the points of skepticism as aspects of study and consideration. I also recognize that I don't know everything and I try to keep an open mind and an open chain of thought to a lot of possibilities, particularly those provided by individuals who might have experiences, relationships and information that I do not. The simple fact is sdcfia, I recognize your perceptions and beliefs are shaped by a variety of aspects I'm not privy to. I not only accept that, I respect it, I value it and frankly I think you bring a lot more to the table then you either realize or let on. Just don't be so hard on folks that don't dismiss all of this out of hand.

At the end of the day, if I'm dead wrong what's the harm? We're all here to have an open dialogue and hopefully can do so in a thoughtful, mature, respectful and stimulating fashion. Thanks for the feedback and please don't be silent...just don't be so hard on us starry eyed dreamers.